Brexit - merged threads

[oowee]

12 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

No matter which way anyone twist their words, if your in a club and you choose to either remain or leave, its a very simple choice. This is not a simple club membership. 

There are only two mechanisms that deliver on the referendum result, This cannot be true as stated below.

1. A free trade deal (the EU have totally ruled this out) Not true. The EU has ruled out the trade deal proposed by the UK. There are many examples where the EU has entered into trade deals as Liam is finding to his cost they are not so easy.  

2. WTO brexit (aka hard brexit) There are many variations of this. 

Anything else is subverting democracy and those in power know it, those suggesting otherwise is either joining in or very very silly. 

Not going to debate this but just want the record to be straight. 

[Rewulf]

9 minutes ago, oowee said:

1. A free trade deal (the EU have totally ruled this out) Not true. The EU has ruled out the trade deal proposed by the UK. There are many examples where the EU has entered into trade deals as Liam is finding to his cost they are not so easy.  

When did this happen ?
We havent even started talking about trade deals, first we have to accept their WA , promise to pay them £39, and then they might give us a free trade deal.
To say that the EU has entered into trade deals and ';they arent easy' says what ? The EU are really hard to deal with ? Or.. their protectionist bloc is not designed for outside trade deals ?

14 minutes ago, oowee said:

2. WTO brexit (aka hard brexit) There are many variations of this. 

Would you like to give some examples of what you mean ?
Are there different theoretical forms of administering a WTO deal with the EU  ?
Perhaps there are, but they are all coming under the header (if you are a remainer) of HARD Brexit.

You like to keep saying that there were 17.4 million types of Brexit in peoples minds, but I dont believe any of them envisaged the kind of sell out softer than soft Brexit, being spoken about by government these days.
To say that JRM et al, and their idea of of Brexit is 'extreme' is probably far more in line with what most of those 17.4 million were thinking was going to happen.

But then this is the way of things these days, if something is not to your taste, start using the throwaway language, 'They are not worth listening to , they are extremists, racists, xenophobes, uneducated, and didnt really know what they were voting for'
Its this same boring, condescending rhetoric, that got us here in the first place, and it will probably take us even further down the road you wont like.

Keep it up, talking down to people is just energising them for more active resistance.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Oh lordeeeeeee!

[Gordon R]

The rise in popularity of the new Brexit Party must have come as a shock to the Remainers, as they like to claim the Leavers have had a change of heart.

[12gauge82]

2 hours ago, oowee said:

Not going to debate this but just want the record to be straight. 

It really is that simple, Mays deal is nothing more than setting up a new club with broadly similar rules to remaining, which if accepted means we've left absaloutly nothing, twist it as much as you like, as can be seen by everyone who voted leave on here, the electorate isn't buying it. 

[oowee]

double post.

Edited April 22, 2019 by oowee

[toxo]

Interesting times ahead.

After the early May elections the tories might finally get the message from those on the ground.

No one is going to vote labour and the tories might find themselves going cap in hand to Nigel should there be a general election. I wonder what he'll say?

[12gauge82]

15 minutes ago, toxo said:

Interesting times ahead.

After the early May elections the tories might finally get the message from those on the ground.

No one is going to vote labour and the tories might find themselves going cap in hand to Nigel should there be a general election. I wonder what he'll say?

Agreed, I'm not even sure Farage would want to be PM. If he did however and the Cons still refuse to deliver brexit as voted for, they could be finished for a generation. 

[Rewulf]

© John Redwood

LETTER TO THE ATTORNEY GENERAL ABOUT THE LEGAL IMPACT OF SIGNING
THE WRONGLY-NAMED WITHDRAWAL TREATY

By John Redwood | First published: April 15, 2019

Dear Geoffrey

Let me have another go at getting a reply from you concerning the way the Withdrawal Agreement stops us leaving the EU. Would you kindly confirm

1. If we sign this Treaty we will be locked into the EU and have to obey all its rules and pay all the bills it sends us for a period of at least 21 months, and probably for 45 months if we have not surrendered further to reach an exit agreement at the 21 month stage. This would mean remaining in the EU for at least five years from the decision to leave and probably for seven years. The EU would be able to legislate and spend against UK interests during this period, whilst we would have no vote or voice in the matter.

2. In order to “leave” in your terms at the five to seven year stage the UK will need to stay in the customs union and accept all single market rules and laws, unless the EU relented over the alleged Irish border issue. Three years on and the EU has given no ground on the made-up border issue, so why would they over the next two years? Isn’t the most likely outcome we would remain in the single market and customs union contrary to the government promise that leaving meant leaving them in its referendum literature ?

3. After the 45 month period fully in the EU, the UK still would face financial obligations under the Withdrawal Treaty. The bills will be decided by the EU and we will have to pay them. Any attempt to query them would be adjudicated by the EU’s own court! The longer we stay in the more the future bills are likely to be. The £39 bn figure is likely to be a considerable underestimate.

4. The Treaty creates a category of super citizen in the UK. EU nationals living in the UK when we “leave” the EU will have their access to benefits guaranteed in a way the rest of us do not for their entire lifetimes. So we will not be taking back control of our benefit system.

I am also concerned about a number of Articles in the draft Treaty that expressly extend EU powers and jurisdiction for a further four to eight years beyond our departure date after the 21 to 45 month delay.

• Article 5 reintroduces the powers of the European Court and enforces “sincere co-operation ” on us as they do not want us impeding their plans for economic, monetary and political union.
• Article 31 imposes social security co-ordination on us.
• Article 39 gives special protection to EU citizens currently living in the UK from changes to social security for the whole of their lives, protection which the rest of us do not enjoy.
• Article 51 applies parts of the VAT regime for an additional 5 years after the long transition envisaged in the Treaty
• Articles 92-3 imposes the EU state aids regime on the UK for 4 years beyond transition
• Article 95 imposes binding decisions by EU quangos and bodies for 4 years beyond transition
• Article 99 requires us to pay for access to records to handle issues over indirect tax where the EU keeps powers for 4 years beyond transition
• Article 127 applies the whole panoply of EU law throughout transition, including the right to legislate any way they wish against our interests and enforce it on us via the ECJ
• Article 130 prevents us taking back control of our fish any time soon. Doubtless more of our fishing rights would be given away trying to get an exit deal.
• Article 135 allows them to send extra bills up to the end of 2028
• Article 140 imposes on us financial liabilities up to December 2020 and carry over into 2021
• Articles 144 and 150 prevent us getting back accumulated reserves and profits from our European Investment Fund and EIB shareholdings
• Article 143 imposes adverse conditions on us over pension and loan liabilities of the Union
• Article 155 requires to make continuing payments to Turkey under an EU programme after we have left
• Article 158 gives the European Court continuing power for 8 years after transition
• Article 164 makes a Joint Committee an effective legislator and government over us
• Article 174 requires any arbitration to be governed by ECJ judgements on the application of law in disputes
• The Protocol on Northern Ireland will require us to stay in the Customs Union with regulatory and legal alignment with the single market, or split off a separate place called UK (NI) which will be governed differently to the rest of the UK on an island of Ireland basis.

There is much more I could object to. This is no Treaty to take back control, no Treaty for a newly independent nation. It does not quantify the financial liabilities, which are open-ended and could be much larger than the low field £39bn Treasury estimate. We have little power to abate the bills and no power to abort the bills. It would probably result even in failure to take back control of our fishing grounds.

Mrs May needs to go back to the EU and explain why the UK people and Parliament have opposed this Treaty, and ask them to think again if they want an agreement before we leave. She needs to make it clear we now intend to leave without signing the Withdrawal Agreement prior to the European Parliamentary elections.

Yours

John Redwood

[12gauge82]

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1115996/brexit-news-theresa-may-delay-macron-france-common-agricultural-policy-cap-spt/amp#referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From %1%24s

 

Yet more evidence the EU has bled us dry over the years! 

[oowee]

2 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1115996/brexit-news-theresa-may-delay-macron-france-common-agricultural-policy-cap-spt/amp#referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From %1%24s

 

Yet more evidence the EU has bled us dry over the years! 

Lets look at that article. 

Last week, Theresa May secured a second extension to Brexit despite French President Emmanuel Macronbattling with his EU counterparts to limit British influence during the tense seven-hour standoff in Brussels. He wanted to see Britain out of the bloc as soon as possible  but was snubbed by EU leaders, who agreed to delay Brexit until October 31 without attaching strong political conditions to the extension. Macron wanted to give Britain the short extension it requested. Conditions which are not possible under the treaty so not under consideration. The French President believes Brexit is monopolising the European agenda at the expense of other important issues and the upcoming MEP elections. That would be correct just as Brexit is monopolising our UK government time at the expense of everything else. 

 

Despite recognising that France will stand to suffer the most economic damage due to Brexit, Mr Macron is keen to minimise the impact of prolonged uncertainty by trying to kick the UK out of the bloc in the shortest time possible. So even though it's bad for France Macron is keen to help the UK leave as the UK requested earlier rather than later. So is the journalist saying Macron was wrong for wanting to give the UK what they have requested?

It is not the first time that politicians in Paris have attempted to single out Britain for its domestic interests, though. They just stated that it's not in Frances interest for us to leave. Which is it? The article is so up it's own propaganda it has forgotten which side it's on.

From the opening gambit the rest is clearly not worth bothering with. 

[Rewulf]

35 minutes ago, oowee said:

From the opening gambit the rest is clearly not worth bothering with. 

So because youve twisted the first part out of all recognition of whats been written, the meat of the article is irrelevant ?

Heres a question, if Macron was so opposed to extending A50 , again, why didnt he veto it, and push us to no deal ?
Answer - Hes not opposed to it at all, he would like us kept in as long as possible, for ever if it can be wangled.

The longer we stay in , the bigger that divorce bill gets.

[oowee]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

So because youve twisted the first part out of all recognition of whats been written, the meat of the article is irrelevant ?

Heres a question, if Macron was so opposed to extending A50 , again, why didnt he veto it, and push us to no deal ?
Answer - Hes not opposed to it at all, he would like us kept in as long as possible, for ever if it can be wangled.

The longer we stay in , the bigger that divorce bill gets.

Twisted? I don't think so and neither do you. It was clearly written to paint the french in a bad light as a warm up to the main event. Another good example of the EU working to reach agreement. I can hear 27 voices, singing in relative harmony compared to our screeching cackle of school children. The Tory Government should hang it's head in shame for the way it's behaved and the way that it is representing our once great country. 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

4 minutes ago, oowee said:

Twisted? I don't think so and neither do you. It was clearly written to paint the french in a bad light as a warm up to the main event. Another good example of the EU working to reach agreement. I can hear 27 voices, singing in relative harmony compared to our screeching cackle of school children. The Tory Government should hang it's head in shame for the way it's behaved and the way that it is representing our once great country. 

Not just the Tory Government, the vast majority of MPs have let people down!

[oowee]

Just now, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Not just the Tory Government, the vast majority of MPs have let people down!

It's the Tory Brexit fiasco. Backwards and forwards to the EU sobbing, pleading, moaning, changing our minds, arguing in public in front of the French. It's frankly embarrassing. We are acting like some sort of 3rd world republic.

My wife is in London tonight for a meeting at the embassy in the morning, jokes will be on us. 

[Rewulf]

5 minutes ago, oowee said:

I can hear 27 voices, singing in relative harmony

'despite French President Emmanuel Macronbattling with his EU counterparts to limit British influence during the tense seven-hour standoff in Brussels.'

'He wanted to see Britain out of the bloc as soon as possible but was snubbed by EU leaders'

https://www.npr.org/2019/03/16/703732693/eu-struggles-to-rein-in-hungarys-hard-line-government?t=1556033094373

Italy and France at loggerheads over migrants, Italy and the EU at loggerheads about budget.

Poland still facing sanctions over law supremacy.

Rise of anti EU and far right parties across Europe in general.

Harmony ? You keep believing what they tell you, the reality is very different.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

2 minutes ago, oowee said:

It's the Tory Brexit fiasco. Backwards and forwards to the EU sobbing, pleading, moaning, changing our minds, arguing in public in front of the French. It's frankly embarrassing. We are acting like some sort of 3rd world republic.

My wife is in London tonight for a meeting at the embassy in the morning, jokes will be on us. 

I hope she gets her fair share of the Ferroro Rocher!

[Rewulf]

Just now, TIGHTCHOKE said:

I hope she gets her fair share of the Ferroro Rocher!

I dont think they have that at the Russian embassy 

[oowee]

27 voices singing in relative harmony on Brexit. The other stuff is work in progress which compares to the UK's zero work in progress for the last three years. 

1 minute ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

I hope she gets her fair share of the Ferroro Rocher!

I hope she brings some back. I notice there is no food in, or at least nothing obvious 😞 I bet she will be eating well. 

[12gauge82]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

 

Heres a question, if Macron was so opposed to extending A50 , again, why didnt he veto it, and push us to no deal ?
Answer - Hes not opposed to it at all, he would like us kept in as long as possible, for ever if it can be wangled.

The longer we stay in , the bigger that divorce bill gets.

Spot on, typical good cop bad cop tactics. 

Actions speak louder than words and if France wanted to stop us extending they could of, but of course they didn't, although I wish they would. 

[oowee]

12 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

Spot on, typical good cop bad cop tactics. 

Actions speak louder than words and if France wanted to stop us extending they could of, but of course they didn't, although I wish they would. 

 

No bad cop tactics involved.  We asked to extend. France could stop us, but they chose to give us what we asked for. How is that bad? The debate was over the length of the extension and 27 countries agreed together to extend till whenever it is. 

We did not have to ask for an extension but of course we did. 🤣

 

[Rewulf]

13 minutes ago, oowee said:

27 countries agreed together to extend till whenever it is. 

Its funny how Junker et al keeps telling us we CAN have extensions, BEFORE asking the 27 if theyre ok with it 

Makes you wonder whos really calling the shots.
Like Macron says he doesnt want it, but he has to put up and shut up.

Harmony ? One voice ? Just whos voice is it ?

[ditchman]

53 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

I dont think they have that at the Russian embassy 

it will be cadbury's Novichoc then............

[Rewulf]

6 minutes ago, ditchman said:

it will be cadbury's Novichoc then............

Melts in your mouth, as your mouth melts with it 🤢

[oowee]

18 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Its funny how Junker et al keeps telling us we CAN have extensions, BEFORE asking the 27 if theyre ok with it 

Makes you wonder whos really calling the shots.
Like Macron says he doesnt want it, but he has to put up and shut up.

Harmony ? One voice ? Just whos voice is it ?

Yes it's uncanny how in tune he is with the member states. I guess that's not his role to be talking to them and in tune with their views. If I recall correctly he said he thought it would be possible and the member states confirmed it but agreed a longer time frame than he thought. I guess he is still learning on the job.

May, was that the Tory that said there would be no extension? 

Lets face it, the whole thing is a poorly conceived dogs breakfast. Whichever way you look at it its a Tory p take. We now need to get behind the next rescue plan and see if we can get this country back on it's feet. 

Edited April 23, 2019 by oowee