Brexit - merged threads

[oowee]

As you say if you have enough money then not a problem. That's why the organ grinders have been championing the cause. 

The point is we will loose much of the mobility of opportunity that was available to all, that let alone finding ways to meet the cost of private health care for retirees that will be required.

Generous social security is not a matter for the EU.

Much more difficult to deliver large scale collaborative global projects on our own. Research, climate change, international business taxation, state aid, protection of human rights, trade disputes, and so forth. At a time when the world is an ever smaller space and the need for joint endeavor is increasing we turn our back and retreat to our safe space rather than embracing change. 

 

[Rewulf]

4 minutes ago, oowee said:

The point is we will loose much of the mobility of opportunity that was available to all, that let alone finding ways to meet the cost of private health care for retirees that will be required.

But what about the stifling of mobility when it comes to trade ?
We collect tariffs for the EU for trade that comes here, its OUR money, they are still looking for 2+ billion that they say we owe them for Chinese imports, they have estimated this, as they cannot prove the real amount.
How will a surplus of low paid EU workers help with our pensions black hole, when they hardly pay any tax, use the NHS , education system and claim tax credits ?

 

8 minutes ago, oowee said:

Generous social security is not a matter for the EU.

No its not, but freedom of movement of people is, and once they here, they are as entitled to those benefits as anyone else, its a big draw and you know it.
Our benefits payments for a single person is what some EU citizens earn for a 50 hour week, if you bring the family, that goes up dramatically.

 

11 minutes ago, oowee said:

Much more difficult to deliver large scale collaborative global projects on our own. Research, climate change, international business taxation, state aid, protection of human rights, trade disputes, and so forth. At a time when the world is an ever smaller space and the need for joint endeavor is increasing we turn our back and retreat to our safe space rather than embracing change. 

No its not, we can do any of that without being in the EU.
What IS difficult, is NOT doing any of that if we as a country dont want to, and the EU does.
The structure of the EU is far to rigid, with a one size fits all policy, it causes resentment.
We are different countries, with different cultures and values, over time a deeper understanding will happen naturally, you try to force it...well, thats how wars start.

[oowee]

3 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

But what about the stifling of mobility when it comes to trade ?
We collect tariffs for the EU for trade that comes here, its OUR money, they are still looking for 2+ billion that they say we owe them for Chinese imports, they have estimated this, as they cannot prove the real amount.
How will a surplus of low paid EU workers help with our pensions black hole, when they hardly pay any tax, use the NHS , education system and claim tax credits ?

Done this on eto death already. Facts do not back up your commentary.

No its not, but freedom of movement of people is, and once they here, they are as entitled to those benefits as anyone else, its a big draw and you know it.
Our benefits payments for a single person is what some EU citizens earn for a 50 hour week, if you bring the family, that goes up dramatically.

So why do we pay it? Do away with the generous payments and you solve the problem. Nothing to do with the EU.

No its not, we can do any of that without being in the EU.

Of course we can do it all on our own but who wields the big stick, who will be driving the bus? 

What IS difficult, is NOT doing any of that if we as a country dont want to, and the EU does.

That applies at any level. We all want to get our own way then we grow up and look at the bigger picture. 

The structure of the EU is far to rigid, with a one size fits all policy, it causes resentment.
We are different countries, with different cultures and values, over time a deeper understanding will happen naturally, you try to force it...well, thats how wars start.

Agreed. 

 

 

[Rewulf]

2 minutes ago, oowee said:

Done this on eto death already. Facts do not back up your commentary.

Youre right there, youve NEVER shown me recent figures of how much EU migrants put into the tax pot, you never will, because they dont publish them.

 

3 minutes ago, oowee said:

So why do we pay it? Do away with the generous payments and you solve the problem. Nothing to do with the EU.

Simple , any government that tries to curtail benefits , signs its death warrant, the tories tried it with tax credits, and couldnt get it through parliament.

Its all about votes.

5 minutes ago, oowee said:

Of course we can do it all on our own but who wields the big stick, who will be driving the bus?

We will, as an independent in a sea of sheep.

 

6 minutes ago, oowee said:

That applies at any level. We all want to get our own way then we grow up and look at the bigger picture. 

Id take a look at the bigger picture if I was you.
Remaining now will cause massive damage, in all aspects.

[Gordon R]

Quote

 

No its not, but freedom of movement of people is, and once they here, they are as entitled to those benefits as anyone else, its a big draw and you know it.
Our benefits payments for a single person is what some EU citizens earn for a 50 hour week, if you bring the family, that goes up dramatically.

So why do we pay it? Do away with the generous payments and you solve the problem. Nothing to do with the EU.

 

Can we be clear - you advocate removing Child Benefit and many more benefits from UK citizens? EU citizens milk our benefits system, by claiming for family who are not even in this country. We would have to abolish all benefits - problem solved. Simplicity at its worst.

[oowee]

3 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

Can we be clear - you advocate removing Child Benefit and many more benefits from UK citizens? EU citizens milk our benefits system, by claiming for family who are not even in this country. We would have to abolish all benefits - problem solved. Simplicity at its worst.

Why? Make the benefits received more related to whats been paid in. Introduce eligablity criteria that applies to all. Where there is a will there is a way. Other European countries mange it. 

8 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Youre right there, youve NEVER shown me recent figures of how much EU migrants put into the tax pot, you never will, because they dont publish them.

Data was provided earlier on in this thread. 

Simple , any government that tries to curtail benefits , signs its death warrant, the tories tried it with tax credits, and couldnt get it through parliament. Its all about votes.

So your complaint is with the first past the post system we have rather than the EU. 

We will, as an independent in a sea of sheep.

Those so called sheep are driving the agenda as we speak. Hard to imagine that a Government incapable of herding the tame ones will be able to herd in the wild. 

 

Id take a look at the bigger picture if I was you.
Remaining now will cause massive damage, in all aspects.

 

 

 

[Dave-G]

1 hour ago, oowee said:

The loss of these rights alone are too high a price to pay let alone anything else but Thurs vote is the least of our concerns. 

On the contrary IMO, I'm very hopefull of Thursday's vote showing how many people feel strongly enough to get to the polling stations and mark their displeasure at coniving EU and UK politicians, and the mainstream news media which I suspect have had their licences spiked to support the elite.

[Rewulf]

18 minutes ago, oowee said:

Why? Make the benefits received more related to whats been paid in. Introduce eligablity criteria that applies to all. Where there is a will there is a way. Other European countries mange it. 

EUCHR would have a field day 😂

Look what happened when Cameron tried to get concessions, he got diddly.
Part of 'bloc culture' is you cannot treat an EU citizen different to one of your own , you know this too Grant.

Like I said , any government that tries to curtail benefits will lose an election next time they get a vote.
The hole we have dug ourselves will just get bigger , as benefit culture breeds more mouths.

[oowee]

1 minute ago, Rewulf said:

EUCHR would have a field day 😂

Look what happened when Cameron tried to get concessions, he got diddly.
Part of 'bloc culture' is you cannot treat an EU citizen different to one of your own , you know this too Grant.

Like I said , any government that tries to curtail benefits will lose an election next time they get a vote.
The hole we have dug ourselves will just get bigger , as benefit culture breeds more mouths.

Cameron (May he get what he deserves in life) was told by the EU that the benefits rules were a matter for the UK. Even Merkel advised how to deal with it. 

It may be beyond this Government but they just need to step over the hedge and look at how others are doing it. 

[Rewulf]

5 minutes ago, oowee said:

Cameron (May he get what he deserves in life) was told by the EU that the benefits rules were a matter for the UK. Even Merkel advised how to deal with it. 

This is clearly NOT true.
This is an assessment of what Cam wanted, and what he got.

What Cameron wanted: The Conservative manifesto said: "We will insist that EU migrants who want to claim tax credits and child benefit must live here and contribute to our country for a minimum of four years." It also proposed a "new residency requirement for social housing, so that EU migrants cannot even be considered for a council house unless they have been living in an area for at least four years".

The manifesto also pledged to "end the ability of EU jobseekers to claim any job-seeking benefits at all", adding that "if jobseekers have not found a job within six months, they will be required to leave".

Mr Cameron also wanted to prevent EU migrant workers in the UK sending child benefit or child tax credit money home. "If an EU migrant's child is living abroad, then they should receive no child benefit or child tax credit, no matter how long they have worked in the UK and no matter how much tax they have paid," says the Tory manifesto.

What the draft deal said:"[New legislation will] provide for an alert and safeguard mechanism that responds to situations of inflows of workers from other member states of an exceptional magnitude over an extended period of time… the implementing act would authorise the member state to limit the access of union workers newly entering its labour market to in-work benefits for a total of up to four years from the commencement of employment."

What the final deal said:

On in-work benefits: The Council would authorise that Member State to limit the access of newly arriving EU workers to non-contributory in-work benefits for a total period of up to four years from the commencement of employment. The limitation should be graduated, from an initial complete exclusion but gradually increasing access to such benefits to take account of the growing connection of the worker with the labour market of the host Member State. The authorisation would have a limited duration and apply to EU workers newly arriving during a period of 7 years.

On child benefit: A proposal to amend Regulation (EC) No 883/2004 of the European Parliament and of the Council on the coordination of social security systems in order to give Member States, with regard to the exportation of child benefits to a Member State other than that where the worker resides, an option to index such benefits to the conditions of the Member State where the child resides. This should apply only to new claims made by EU workers in the host Member State. However, as from 1 January 2020, all Member States may extend indexation to existing claims to child benefits already exported by EU workers. The Commission does not intend to propose that the future system of optional indexation of child benefits be extended to other types of exportable benefits, such as old-age pensions;

Assessment: Mr Cameron had to compromise on this aspect of the deal in the face of strong opposition from Poland and three other central European countries. He got the four-year "emergency brake" on in-work benefits he had set such store by - but new arrivals will have their tax credits phased in over four years. The brake will be in place for a maximum of seven years, rather than the 13 years Mr Cameron is thought to have wanted - but the EU has agreed it would be "justified" to trigger it without delay after the referendum if the UK votes to stay in the EU.

Mr Cameron failed in his original demand to ban migrant workers from sending child benefit money back home. Payments will instead be linked to the cost of living in the countries where the children live. The new rules will apply immediately for new arrivals, and for existing claimants from 2020.

The UK government has already reached an agreement on out-of-work benefits. Newly arrived EU migrants are banned from claiming jobseeker's allowance for three months. If they have not found a job within six months they will be required to leave. EU migrant workers in the UK who lose their job, through no fault of their own, are entitled to the same benefits as UK citizens, including jobseekers allowance and housing benefit, for six months.

Neither the draft deal nor the final agreement mention changes to social housing entitlement but they were never part of Mr Cameron's preliminary negotiations.

[oowee]

I thought you said he got diddly? Looks to me like he achieved some change. 

[Rewulf]

2 minutes ago, oowee said:

I thought you said he got diddly? Looks to me like he achieved some change. 

Some change ? 
This was his big moment, after that the writing was on the wall..

The fact is if he..

18 minutes ago, oowee said:

was told by the EU that the benefits rules were a matter for the UK.

How come he had to go and ask, cap in hand, the EU to OK it ?
Then get told no.

[oowee]

Cameron (May he get what he deserves in life) was never the brightest tool in the box.

Because he asked the wrong question and adopted the wrong approach.  The whole thing like a trip to see Johnny foreigner and tell him what's what, as he was bitten on the back by the anti EU baying mob, in his party. Asking to deliberately exclude was never on the cards. These things are a negotiation, they take time, as we are starting to see. 

He should, maybe, have gone with IDS an expert in the field and maybe he would have achieved more. This is the caliber of politician we now want to put in charge of negotiating new trade agreements around the world. My monies on the EU getting a better deal in all cases even if its run by a bunch of bleating sheep. 

 

Edited May 20, 2019 by oowee

[Rewulf]

56 minutes ago, oowee said:

Because he asked the wrong question and adopted the wrong approach.  The whole thing like a trip to see Johnny foreigner and tell him what's what, as he was bitten on the back by the anti EU baying mob, in his party. Asking to deliberately exclude was never on the cards. These things are a negotiation, they take time, as we are starting to see. 

Ill agree with your definition of Cameron.

However, he knew the stakes, if he didnt come back with some decent concessions , he was risking a Ref result not to his favour.
The EU should really have thought this through too, because as much as they give the haughty face, like they dont really care what we do, this whole debacle does not paint them in a good light, and if we do come out on WTO , will most definitely hit them in the pocket.

Its a game of bluff they do play well, but that could easily backfire.

[Gordon R]

Quote

Why? Make the benefits received more related to whats been paid in. Introduce eligablity criteria that applies to all. Where there is a will there is a way. Other European countries mange it. 

Child Benefit is non-contributory. Rather than peddling vague tosh, could you get specific?

[oowee]

2 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

Child Benefit is non-contributory. Rather than peddling vague tosh, could you get specific?

If, as you describe, it as all vague tosh then what's the point? 

[Gordon R]

I was hoping there was some substance to your vague suggestions. I now accept that your answers rarely, if ever, contain any credible alternative.

[figgy]

Cracking video of Nigel Farrage speach for Brexit Party on YouTube posted 20 mins ago.

Made me chuckle when he described Teresa Mays opening Speach.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

3 minutes ago, figgy said:

Cracking video of Nigel Farrage speach for Brexit Party on YouTube posted 20 mins ago.

Made me chuckle when he described Teresa Mays opening Speach.

Got a link?

[Jaymo]

2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

EUCHR would have a field day 😂

Look what happened when Cameron tried to get concessions, he got diddly.
Part of 'bloc culture' is you cannot treat an EU citizen different to one of your own , you know this too Grant.

Like I said , any government that tries to curtail benefits will lose an election next time they get a vote.
The hole we have dug ourselves will just get bigger , as benefit culture breeds more mouths.

Actually they wouldn’t, other nations already have a limit on what can be claimed and when.

My nephew in France could not apply for ‘unemployment’ type benefits as he hadn’t worked a full time job for a year.

I may be wrong as this was from him and he is only 18 ( bless him 🙂 ) 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

7 minutes ago, Jaymo said:

Actually they wouldn’t, other nations already have a limit on what can be claimed and when.

My nephew in France could not apply for ‘unemployment’ type benefits as he hadn’t worked a full time job for a year.

I may be wrong as this was from him and he is only 18 ( bless him 🙂 ) 

Is this a typical French type of thing, sounds very similar to a Cafe closing for lunch!

[Rewulf]

12 minutes ago, Jaymo said:

Actually they wouldn’t, other nations already have a limit on what can be claimed and when.

As do we , now,  but after 1 year of work he qualifies for some, after 4 years , full benefits.
But thats not the point, the major cost is incurred to the host country  when a low paid worker, hardly pays any tax, but can reap the benefits after theyve been here a few years.

You might say we have plenty of home grown people like that, and you would be absolutely right, they are a drain on resources, so why would you import more ?
Brexit is about letting people in who will benefit our society, not those who wish to leach off it.
This doesnt automatically mean every low paid EU citizen is here to do that, but plenty do, they are a net cost to the exchequer.

It is NOT a level playing field, when we have UK citizens going over to Poland and Romania to wash cars and clean offices, and they can make a tidy living with free health care and tax credits, then we can talk about the net benefits of being a member of the EU.
At the moment, its a one way street, and we are paying for it.

[oowee]

3 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

As do we , now,  but after 1 year of work he qualifies for some, after 4 years , full benefits.
But thats not the point, the major cost is incurred to the host country  when a low paid worker, hardly pays any tax, but can reap the benefits after theyve been here a few years.

You might say we have plenty of home grown people like that, and you would be absolutely right, they are a drain on resources, so why would you import more ?
Brexit is about letting people in who will benefit our society, not those who wish to leach off it.
This doesnt automatically mean every low paid EU citizen is here to do that, but plenty do, they are a net cost to the exchequer.

It is NOT a level playing field, when we have UK citizens going over to Poland and Romania to wash cars and clean offices, and they can make a tidy living with free health care and tax credits, then we can talk about the net benefits of being a member of the EU.
At the moment, its a one way street, and we are paying for it.

https://fullfact.org/immigration/do-eu-immigrants-contribute-134-every-1-they-receive/

 

[Rewulf]

2 minutes ago, oowee said:

https://fullfact.org/immigration/do-eu-immigrants-contribute-134-every-1-they-receive/

 

“EU migrants pay £1.34 in taxes for every £1 they receive in state assistance”

British Influence, 18 February 2016

Research has found that recently-arrived immigrants from other EU countries contribute £1.34 for every £1 they take from the public purse. The same figures for all EU immigrants show smaller contributions.

This research has since been updated, but even then this study doesn’t present an undisputed picture of immigrants’ costs and contributions to the UK.

Not all research agrees on this topic

There is no single ‘correct’ answer to the question of how much immigrants contribute to public finances, according to the Migration Observatory at the University of Oxford.

Youve used this before, its not FACT in the slightest , its like the remain claim of £1 in -£10 out , its 'air' maths.
If you read the entire piece it admits there are gaping holes in the way the figures are calculated, and they are far from up to date.
The £1.34 figure is calculated from data thats over 15 years old !

Its a very poor attempt at trying to tell us, the more migrants we bring in, the richer we as a country get.
When , if that were really  the case, our GDP would have grown expotentially !
There are literally millions of eastern Europeans claiming child benefit and tax credits due to their low pay, using the NHS and schools at great cost.
Yes, some of them are a net benefit, but does it balance out ? I dont believe so, and until I see official , up to date figures from a reliable source....

[sportsbob]

30 minutes ago, oowee said:

https://fullfact.org/immigration/do-eu-immigrants-contribute-134-every-1-they-receive/

 

Thanks for the link, is a shame it is historic. The date range for the figures given go back tens of years and more recently the immigrant demographic has changed significantly. The document even goes onto suggest the figures given are only a best guess and when other variables are taken into account they could well be very wrong.

Somewhere I seem to recall that a if a foreign national returns to his home nation for a certain period ( a few months ) of time they can claim back the tax paid into the system, if this is so then the potential measerly amount they may have paid at best will turn into a massive drain on the treasury. 

EDIT I have just checked re coming back after claiming all tax paid and they have to stay away for at least one year.

 

Edited May 20, 2019 by sportsbob