Brexit - merged threads

[pinfireman]

23 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Are momentum calling for violent action against politicians who dont agree with their ideals ?

What can you expect from a bunch of violent thickos? If they had twice the brains they currently have, they would still be halfwits!

[12gauge82]

I really wish this whole "didn't know what they voted for argument" would be put to bed, it's a ridiculous and patronising statement, it's obvious to even the biggest baffoon that a vote to leave the EU would mean leaving its core rules which would include its 4 freedoms, to state anything else would be ridiculous, what would you have actually left if we didn't? 

[pinfireman]

People’s Vote campaigners have spent the last few days frothing at the mouth over the Brexit Party’s £25 donations, to the extent that the sycophantic Electoral Commission have dropped everything to go and physically investigate its offices tomorrow. So naturally you’d expect the People’s Vote campaign to have the highest standards for donations to its own “European elections battle fund”. Think again:

They’ve set their limit at £499 – £1 under the limit – and then literally told their supporters that it’s a deliberately move to avoid them having to check individual donors. Hypocrisy in politics is nothing new but this is on another level. Guido eagerly awaits the Electoral Commission hot-footing it down to People’s Vote HQ tomorrow to check their donations too…

1 minute ago, 12gauge82 said:

I really wish this whole "didn't know what they voted for argument" would be put to bed, it's a ridiculous and patronising statement, it's obvious to even the biggest baffoon that a vote to leave the EU would mean leaving its core rules which would include its 4 freedoms, to state anything else would be ridiculous, what would you have actually left if we didn't? 

Correct!

[Gordon R]

pinfireman - thanks for the support, but in all honesty, Thursday's election should be a good indicator of the way the country feels. Ditchman and others have highlighted how this rather acrimonious series of events has left many feeling a lack of confidence in democracy.

I genuinely hope that the postings of the two main Remainers are a bit tongue in cheek. At the end of the day, whatever is posted on here counts for little or nothing in the real world. At some point it will be resolved.

[Rewulf]

25 minutes ago, pinfireman said:

People’s Vote campaigners have spent the last few days frothing at the mouth over the Brexit Party’s £25 donations, to the extent that the sycophantic Electoral Commission have dropped everything to go and physically investigate its offices tomorrow. So naturally you’d expect the People’s Vote campaign to have the highest standards for donations to its own “European elections battle fund”. Think again:

They’ve set their limit at £499 – £1 under the limit – and then literally told their supporters that it’s a deliberately move to avoid them having to check individual donors. Hypocrisy in politics is nothing new but this is on another level. Guido eagerly awaits the Electoral Commission hot-footing it down to People’s Vote HQ tomorrow to check their donations too…

Correct!

Soros can't fund them at the moment, so they're leaching off the public. 

Those plush offices and champagne receptions don't come cheap ya know 😂

[Raja Clavata]

3 hours ago, Rewulf said:

This isnt a personal attack BTW , and no, I dont know what youre thinking, because youre very unclear about what you actually WANT.

You dont really want Brexit, in any 'real'shape or form, that is clear.
So spell it out, do you want it overturned , no debate just ignore 2016, revoked?
Softer than a soft thing ?
Mays/Barniers deal ?
Or to keep delaying until the cows come home ?

What I want isn't really important but in simple terms it's probably no more realistic than, and apologies for the phrase, the unicorns that some people appear to have voted for in the name of Brexit. We obviously can't undo what has happened in the past, we can only learn from it, but then only if we are open to the idea of doing so. If it were possible, and I don't believe it is, I would like to see the current trajectory we appear to be on halted. I would like to see someone in authority stand up and say this is nonsense, none of us wanted this, none of us. I would happily see some alternative approach to Brexit laid out which could be palatable to a significant majority of us. Amongst other things, a solution that does not see us "defined" by people of the opposite viewpoint because I very much believe that fundamentally we agree on more than we disagree on but somehow the polarising subject of Brexit drives a wedge through us all.

Sometimes your position seems to make sense, then you flip it round and its all changed.

Could that be in part because you're OK with balanced views that fit with your opinion but less so with those that don't?

You keep asked which Brexit, I could say the one we were promised, the one we voted for, but you say thats no good, theres different interpretations, but thats not strictly true.
No single market.
No customs union.
No more legal interference, British law goes back to being sovereign.
No more 10 bn a year for them to tell us how to govern ourselves.
Our own Immigration controls.

I get that but I still don't see how anything currently on the table delivers that in an acceptable manner. I stand by my comment previously that I'd prefer a WTO Brexit to the WA as currently defined publicly and I really don't like the idea of WTO Brexit, so that says something about my views on the WA. Putting aside the issues with the WA agreement though do you stand behind a choice between the two being a democratic outcome to the referendum result and who gets to decide?

Not hard is it?

I think that is precisely the problem, it's not hard to say leave means leave and call for WTO Brexit from a position of rhetoric or not being directly attributable for the decision to invoke that yourself. In theory it's simple but in practice it's hard to reach an acceptable outcome when faced with the uncertainty, challenges and what the result might be to our national unity as a result of delivering at all costs. Of course I do understand the counter argument on national unity but it probably boils down to which we consider the lesser of the two evils.

 

1 hour ago, pinfireman said:

"Terms" did not come into this! LEAVE means LEAVE....check out the Oxford Concise Dictionary!

Bang on!

Surely that depends on the accuracy of the name he called you? 

I think a clean, straightforward Brexit may be difficult for him to comprehend?

OK, so we can reliably take it that you are aligned with the views of the individual who made those "foot in mouth" comments earlier, that's two of you then 👏

[oowee]

How refreshing to hear interviews with German politicians on TV. Measured and considered, no shouting no accusations or cross talking very impressive. 

[Rewulf]

58 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

What I want isn't really important but in simple terms it's probably no more realistic than, and apologies for the phrase, the unicorns that some people appear to have voted for in the name of Brexit. We obviously can't undo what has happened in the past, we can only learn from it, but then only if we are open to the idea of doing so. If it were possible, and I don't believe it is, I would like to see the current trajectory we appear to be on halted. I would like to see someone in authority stand up and say this is nonsense, none of us wanted this, none of us. I would happily see some alternative approach to Brexit laid out which could be palatable to a significant majority of us. Amongst other things, a solution that does not see us "defined" by people of the opposite viewpoint because I very much believe that fundamentally we agree on more than we disagree on but somehow the polarising subject of Brexit drives a wedge through us all.

As I thought, and said, clear as mud! 

 

59 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Could that be in part because you're OK with balanced views that fit with your opinion but less so with those that don't?

Ones without massive contradictions are perfectly acceptable, whether they're mine or someone else's. Your view is that confused... That's why I asked YOU what YOU want, but you couldn't give a straight answer, or you don't actually know what you want. 

[Raja Clavata]

7 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

As I thought, and said, clear as mud! 

You seriously don't get any of that?

Ones without massive contradictions are perfectly acceptable, whether they're mine or someone else's. Your view is that confused... That's why I asked YOU what YOU want, but you couldn't give a straight answer, or you don't actually know what you want. 

Can you give an example of said contradictions?

 

[oowee]

1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said:

We obviously can't undo what has happened in the past, we can only learn from it, but then only if we are open to the idea of doing so. If it were possible, and I don't believe it is, I would like to see the current trajectory we appear to be on halted. I would like to see someone in authority stand up and say this is nonsense, none of us wanted this, none of us. I would happily see some alternative approach to Brexit laid out which could be palatable to a significant majority of us. Amongst other things, a solution that does not see us "defined" by people of the opposite viewpoint because I very much believe that fundamentally we agree on more than we disagree on but somehow the polarising subject of Brexit drives a wedge through us all.

Exactly this. Most of us are on the same side but most of us do not know it. 

[Raja Clavata]

@Rewulf I have tried to answer your question, however unsatisfactory you may find it so please return the favour - what percentage of overall votes in the EU elections for the Brexit Party represents a second clear statement that the majority of the country still want Brexit?

[Dave-G]

8 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

This needs to be shared and shared, people need to see it and decide whether they are voting for someone representing a credible political party or an audition for something like Britain's got talent.

This Thursdays election is not about a credible political party - there isn't one in the UK at the moment unless someone has just started one up calling themselves Spivs R us.

He's made it clear he's currently only trying to force Brexit at this time - and if as many people vote for him as is being suggested he'll be showing what is really thought by the bulk of the voting population rather than what the BBC, other mainstream media and the politcal elite in UK and EU would have us believe.

Call it a protest vote if you have want - most remainers will anyway. I personally hope he smashes the UK political system up big time because the current offerings seriously don't deserve the trust or backing of the people.

[Rewulf]

6 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

@Rewulf I have tried to answer your question, however unsatisfactory you may find it so please return the favour - what percentage of overall votes in the EU elections for the Brexit Party represents a second clear statement that the majority of the country still want Brexit?

Busy at the moment, I'll reply tomorrow. 

[Raja Clavata]

Just now, Dave-G said:

This Thursdays election is not about a credible political party - there isn't one in the UK at the moment unless someone has just started one up calling themselves Spivs R us.

He's made it clear he's currently only trying to force Brexit at this time - and if as many people vote for him as is being suggested he'll be showing what is really thought by the bulk of the voting population rather than what the BBC, other mainstream media and the politcal elite in UK and EU would have us believe.

Call it a protest vote if you have want - most remainers will anyway. I personally hope he smashes the UK political system up big time because the current offerings seriously don't deserve the trust or backing of the people.

But the rhetoric is about it becoming one and potentially going all the way.

By the same token the vote isn't supposed to be about whether or not we think the established parties are good or bad, it's about which candidates can best represent our interests in the EU Parliament. If the disease is the UK political system then I very much doubt Farage and the Brexit Party are the medicine / cure that the majority really are looking for.

[oowee]

5 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

But the rhetoric is about it becoming one and potentially going all the way.

By the same token the vote isn't supposed to be about whether or not we think the established parties are good or bad, it's about which candidates can best represent our interests in the EU Parliament. If the disease is the UK political system then I very much doubt Farage and the Brexit Party are the medicine / cure that the majority really are looking for.

^^^^^^^ This. The question was leave or remain but the answer is neither leave nor remain. 

[Gordon R]

Quote

By the same token the vote isn't supposed to be about whether or not we think the established parties are good or bad, it's about which candidates can best represent our interests in the EU Parliament.

That is the detached from reality view. The reality is what Dave-G says. Thursday will tell whether you or I are the one with the finger on the pulse. Can we just await the result, without some inadequate riposte?

[Raja Clavata]

32 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Busy at the moment, I'll reply tomorrow. 

Looking forward to your reply.

[Dave-G]

51 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

But the rhetoric is about it becoming one and potentially going all the way.

By the same token the vote isn't supposed to be about whether or not we think the established parties are good or bad, it's about which candidates can best represent our interests in the EU Parliament. If the disease is the UK political system then I very much doubt Farage and the Brexit Party are the medicine / cure that the majority really are looking for.

Hmm, the Cons and Labour will do what they can to support the EU interests with regard to brexit, rather than UK's - as amply proved by their Brexit wrecking ball.

 

Farage has a sort of plan to ask what the people want - or words to that effect. Methinks that's trying a new idea that might just work - or not work but the current shambles of not even trying to honour election manifesto's is beyond shamefull. Something different needs to be tried, sure he'll need a lot of help but something HAS to be done to shake our politicians by the bits that hurt.

Edited May 21, 2019 by Dave-G

[12gauge82]

10 hours ago, oowee said:

^^^^^^^ This. The question was leave or remain but the answer is neither leave nor remain. 

If that is the case, it is almost beside the point, the issue is, the government held the referendum, thinking they could manipulate the electorate to vote remain and were confident that was the result they would get, they had no intention of ever honouring a leave vote and obviously never thought it could happen. 

They've then tried to move the goal posts and muddy the waters by patronising leave supporters telling them they didn't know what they voted for, some MPs trying to block brexit all together and some trying to "deliver" a watered down version of remain under a different name, like Mays "deal", which most leavers and remainers believe is the worst of both worlds. 

It was blatantly obvious what was voted for, the reality is those in power don't want to deliver it, whether its because it'll cause huge economic damage or because politicians are inept and corrupt liers is for each of us to individually decide and vote accordingly at the next GE. 

The point is, if we do not truly leave the EU, it means each and every one of us, regardless of whether you believe staying or leaving the EU makes better economic sense, no longer lives in a free and democratic society, try and put a price on that, as master card used to say, "some things in life are priceless" 

[oowee]

9 hours ago, Dave-G said:

Hmm, the Cons and Labour will do what they can to support the EU interests with regard to brexit, rather than UK's - as amply proved by their Brexit wrecking ball.

Why would they want to do that? Surely its a case that both sides are trying to deliver a compromise solution, each wanting to blame the other for failure. The failure is each party's factions having strongly differing view points, which result in neither side being clear on what they are prepared to agree on? It's reasonable to see a new leader of the con's being in exactly the same position as May. They may take a firmer Brexit stance but are then likely to loose support from the rest of the party and at the same time bring even less cross party support. 

Perhaps a more likely position than a compromise, which has eluded parliament to date, is that the clock gets run down again and the EU push us to decide. Not agreeing a further extension we would be forced to rescind or go for broke. Parliament does not want to select no deal so it's logical that they vote to rescind. They won't want to make that decision either so a vote back to the people no deal brexit or stay in. ?

1 minute ago, 12gauge82 said:

If that is the case, it is almost beside the point, the issue is, the government held the referendum, thinking they could manipulate the electorate to vote remain and were confident that was the result they would get, they had no intention of ever honouring a leave vote and obviously never thought it could happen. 

They've then tried to move the goal posts and muddy the waters by patronising leave supporters telling them they didn't know what they voted for, some MPs trying to block brexit all together and some trying to "deliver" a watered down version of remain under a different name, like Mays "deal", which most leavers and remainers believe is the worst of both worlds. 

It was blatantly obvious what was voted for, the reality is those in power don't want to deliver it, whether its because it'll cause huge economic damage or because politicians are inept and corrupt liers is for each of us to individually decide and vote accordingly at the next GE. 

The point is, if we do not truly leave the EU, it means each and every one of us, regardless of whether you believe staying or leaving the EU makes better economic sense, no longer lives in a free and democratic society, try and put a price on that, as master card used to say, "some things in life are priceless" 

Is it not the case that part of the leave discussion was that a deal could be reached with the EU easily as it was in their interest as much if not more so than our own? In which case it's reasonable to assume that some leave voters expected a deal to be available. Even Farage and the UkIP Leaders are saying after a no deal Brexit we will then be in a position to get a deal. If that is true surely we can get a deal in advance without having to go through the uncertainty of no deal fall out? 

[12gauge82]

5 minutes ago, oowee said:

Why would they want to do that? Surely its a case that both sides are trying to deliver a compromise solution, each wanting to blame the other for failure. The failure is each party's factions having strongly differing view points, which result in neither side being clear on what they are prepared to agree on? It's reasonable to see a new leader of the con's being in exactly the same position as May. They may take a firmer Brexit stance but are then likely to loose support from the rest of the party and at the same time bring even less cross party support. 

Perhaps a more likely position than a compromise, which has eluded parliament to date, is that the clock gets run down again and the EU push us to decide. Not agreeing a further extension we would be forced to rescind or go for broke. Parliament does not want to select no deal so it's logical that they vote to rescind. They won't want to make that decision either so a vote back to the people no deal brexit or stay in. ?

Is it not the case that part of the leave discussion was that a deal could be reached with the EU easily as it was in their interest as much if not more so than our own? In which case it's reasonable to assume that some leave voters expected a deal to be available. Even Farage and the UkIP Leaders are saying after a no deal Brexit we will then be in a position to get a deal. If that is true surely we can get a deal in advance without having to go through the uncertainty of no deal fall out? 

Yes that was stated by many, but it was also stated that if they failed to agree a deal we would walk away. 

I still think a free trade deal could easily be reached, the problem is no one's asked for one, if we leave under wto we can then negotiate from a position of strength again and if the EU still don't want to be sensible, we can watch them go down the plughole while we trade with the rest of the world. 

No amount of squirming can ever change the fact that the people were told they would make the decision, parliament were going to give them that power, the largest vote in the history of our country took place and the politicians went back on their promise, this is why people are so angry and I can fully understand why. 

I honestly believe there is only one choice to solve the issues they've caused

1. Deliver brexit, which at this moment in time would mean WTO

Or

2. Be honest, tell the people they lied, they never thought leave would win and they were never going to allow us to leave as they believe it would cause too much economic damage and hope for forgiveness. 

If politicians continue to lie, patronise and manipulate, it will cause damage beyond even the worst predictions under wto, it'll just take longer to come about. 

[oowee]

Given the current impasse. How can a no deal Brexit be delivered? Neither party will vote for it. A General election is likely to result in even greater division of power so I am guessing the parties will not want to go down that route if they can avoid it. Which leaves the EU to push us into a decision. 

Remind me as I am not clear on this. If no decision is taken can we just fall out with no deal or was that option taken away from parliament previously.

[Newbie to this]

41 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

If that is the case, it is almost beside the point, the issue is, the government held the referendum, thinking they could manipulate the electorate to vote remain and were confident that was the result they would get, they had no intention of ever honouring a leave vote and obviously never thought it could happen. 

They've then tried to move the goal posts and muddy the waters by patronising leave supporters telling them they didn't know what they voted for, some MPs trying to block brexit all together and some trying to "deliver" a watered down version of remain under a different name, like Mays "deal", which most leavers and remainers believe is the worst of both worlds. 

It was blatantly obvious what was voted for, the reality is those in power don't want to deliver it, whether its because it'll cause huge economic damage or because politicians are inept and corrupt liers is for each of us to individually decide and vote accordingly at the next GE. 

The point is, if we do not truly leave the EU, it means each and every one of us, regardless of whether you believe staying or leaving the EU makes better economic sense, no longer lives in a free and democratic society, try and put a price on that, as master card used to say, "some things in life are priceless" 

 

21 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

Yes that was stated by many, but it was also stated that if they failed to agree a deal we would walk away. 

I still think a free trade deal could easily be reached, the problem is no one's asked for one, if we leave under wto we can then negotiate from a position of strength again and if the EU still don't want to be sensible, we can watch them go down the plughole while we trade with the rest of the world. 

No amount of squirming can ever change the fact that the people were told they would make the decision, parliament were going to give them that power, the largest vote in the history of our country took place and the politicians went back on their promise, this is why people are so angry and I can fully understand why. 

I honestly believe there is only one choice to solve the issues they've caused

1. Deliver brexit, which at this moment in time would mean WTO

Or

2. Be honest, tell the people they lied, they never thought leave would win and they were never going to allow us to leave as they believe it would cause too much economic damage and hope for forgiveness. 

If politicians continue to lie, patronise and manipulate, it will cause damage beyond even the worst predictions under wto, it'll just take longer to come about. 

Two great posts. 

The problem with the treaty that May has negotiated is it's been negotiated by people who don't want to leave. One of which has asked if he can become a Belgian citizen if it is successful because he doesn't think it will be welcomed by the British public. Undeniable proof that the negotiations were poor. How can you negotiate something which you don't believe in, it's been a stich up from the start.

Edited May 22, 2019 by Newbie to this

[Rewulf]

10 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

@Rewulf I have tried to answer your question, however unsatisfactory you may find it so please return the favour - what percentage of overall votes in the EU elections for the Brexit Party represents a second clear statement that the majority of the country still want Brexit?

Ive had a think about this, and had a look at the opinion polls again, whilst a strong message will obviously be sent regarding the 'mood' of the country, no, I dont believe that as it stands that it confirms that the majority still want Brexit.
Im not saying that given another referendum we wouldnt vote to leave ..again, I believe we would, but thats just my opinion.
Not that I believe another referendum wouldnt be massively damaging to the already heavily damaged faith in British politics.
 

 

12 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

What I want isn't really important but in simple terms it's probably no more realistic than, and apologies for the phrase, the unicorns that some people appear to have voted for in the name of Brexit. We obviously can't undo what has happened in the past, we can only learn from it, but then only if we are open to the idea of doing so. If it were possible, and I don't believe it is, I would like to see the current trajectory we appear to be on halted. I would like to see someone in authority stand up and say this is nonsense, none of us wanted this, none of us. I would happily see some alternative approach to Brexit laid out which could be palatable to a significant majority of us. Amongst other things, a solution that does not see us "defined" by people of the opposite viewpoint because I very much believe that fundamentally we agree on more than we disagree on but somehow the polarising subject of Brexit drives a wedge through us all.

Ok , a more detailed analysis than my short answer yesterday.
I asked you what YOU wanted to see.

You say what you want isnt important, but thats irrelevant , its all very well laughing at the predicament, but where is the resolution, where is the answer ?

Unicorns, what is it about remainers and unicorns, is a new buzzword that they come up with when faced with a difficult question.
Brexiter- 'OK whats YOUR solution to get us out of this mess then ?'
Remainer - 'Pah ! Well what did you expect when you voted for unicorns ?!'

THAT is not an answer.

You say this 'We obviously can't undo what has happened in the past, we can only learn from it,'
Then you say this ' If it were possible, and I don't believe it is, I would like to see the current trajectory we appear to be on halted.'
This is confusing in itself, you want to stop Brexit, but admit it isnt really possible ?
Yet the whole basis of the mess of Brexit , is the simple FACT that most of Parliament DO think its possible, and not only that , they are prepared to stake their seats on it.
So why dont you ?

Then you contradict yourself.
'I would like to see someone in authority stand up and say this is nonsense, none of us wanted this, none of us.'
For starters 17.4 million DID want it, how thick or racist they are is irrelevant.
And plenty of 'those in authority' are standing up and saying this is nonsense, despite the fact that more people voted to leave than voted for their party, by a looong stretch.
No doubt this is the bit where you say, 'Oh but which vision of Brexit ?'
They didnt ask, because despite their fears, they didnt care , they just wanted out.

I would happily see some alternative approach to Brexit laid out which could be palatable to a significant majority of us.
Then give us a clue, this is fundamentally the question I asked you !

Amongst other things, a solution that does not see us "defined" by people of the opposite viewpoint because I very much believe that fundamentally we agree on more than we disagree on but somehow the polarising subject of Brexit drives a wedge through us all.

Left and right , twin party politics are always polar.
The fact is , I believe this mentality is cultivated by those in power to deliberately divide us, and Brexit is no different.
Do you seriously believe most remainers 'love' the EU that much ? 
Or is it just a lefty thing, because most right wingers hate it so much ?

Give that one some thought, and a lot of other answers tend to fall into place.

[12gauge82]

9 minutes ago, oowee said:

Given the current impasse. How can a no deal Brexit be delivered? Neither party will vote for it. A General election is likely to result in even greater division of power so I am guessing the parties will not want to go down that route if they can avoid it. Which leaves the EU to push us into a decision. 

Remind me as I am not clear on this. If no decision is taken can we just fall out with no deal or was that option taken away from parliament previously.

If May does not ask for another extension, by default we now leave in October, there is actually a legal challenge ongoing at the moment which alleges that the UK has already left in May as it says T May didn't have the legal authority to extend our membership without asking permission from parliament, very much like the argument from Gina Miller that she won. 

Whether it's sucssesfull or not I have no idea.