The demise of lead shot and small bore shot guns

[lancer425]

  The old gun/ muzleloader debate wont get anywhere, Bismuth copper are suitable for such guns. Moving away from lead voluntarily wont happen to any degree until its banned. Shooters who have never really used steel, are against it from the off. Wildfowlers were the same. And  the game shooting fraternity as a whole have been largely dismissive of steel. Once the fact the vast majority of game shooters were shooting ducks with lead, the writing was on the wall.  Refusal to comply and to routinely break the law to that extent can only send out one message to government.   I have heard it all on game shoots, we all have. Game shooters were caught with their trousers down, and its time to face the music.  This voluntary ban wont be taken up to any degree, it will stay off the Full ban a little, but why should game shooting clean up its act. No change on the lead in ducks at game dealers the year after it was first discovered so why would they voluntarily give up lead now. 

[rbrowning2]

6 hours ago, lancer425 said:

  The old gun/ muzleloader debate wont get anywhere, Bismuth copper are suitable for such guns. Moving away from lead voluntarily wont happen to any degree until its banned. Shooters who have never really used steel, are against it from the off. Wildfowlers were the same. And  the game shooting fraternity as a whole have been largely dismissive of steel. Once the fact the vast majority of game shooters were shooting ducks with lead, the writing was on the wall.  Refusal to comply and to routinely break the law to that extent can only send out one message to government.   I have heard it all on game shoots, we all have. Game shooters were caught with their trousers down, and its time to face the music.  This voluntary ban wont be taken up to any degree, it will stay off the Full ban a little, but why should game shooting clean up its act. No change on the lead in ducks at game dealers the year after it was first discovered so why would they voluntarily give up lead now. 

Well I guess as WJ want then, the simple answer is to ban all game shooting do away with GLs and licence the few individuals to do pest/pigeon control with non toxic shot and then continue to allow lead in confined areas like clay grounds operate in.
Or get the cartridge manufactures to agree to load lead in shot size 9 and 8 only and also get the CPSA to restrict the the maximum load down to 24 or even 21gms for clay shooting any bigger shot or load must be non toxic.

bismuth and copper shot like TSS is not cheap and never will be, the sport of shooting is certainly moving towards a rich mans sport.

 

[Scully]

We've been here before and the debate simply goes round in circles. The facts on both sides were debated at the highest level until well after the cows came home, and it was shown that lead shot has no detrimental effects to humans if consumed in the quantities it is consumed as part of a healthy diet. If there were, then legislation preventing you feeding your children meat containing lead shot would exist. It doesn't. Even Avery ( when I debated the matter with him ) conceded that freedom to choose did exist. 

What has changed is government policy on environmental issues, and as a result our shooting organisations have been told that lead is going, it's up to you to tell your membership.....ring any bells? 😉 You won't find ANY opposition from your shooting organisations; what WILL happen is an increase in the terminology singing the praises of non lead shot, to get the membership onside.  

It's still a ban, merely via another door. 

1 hour ago, rbrowning2 said:

 

bismuth and copper shot like TSS is not cheap and never will be, the sport of shooting is certainly moving towards a rich mans sport.

 

As it once was. You may well be right, but didn't our shooting organisations state no ban until a cheap and effective alternative were found? Doesn't steel fit this criteria? 

[lancer425]

WJ / CP / averey rode on the back of lead shot because it is an obvious one. It has to go they know that and we know that they do not want lead in the environment any more. We have had a good run, And got 20 years longer than wildfowlers so acept it and move on.

  Itsc not about its harmfulness if ingested that was very much a sore  point in the run up to it going in fowling and raged on for years.

When Non lead came in i sold THREE big bore shotguns, which had been in the family for close to 100 years.  We could buy ITM at that  time for just under £20 a kilo from Ian charlton. Cheaper if you had connections, or had a Gamebore trade account.   I had no crustal ball but could see it would come up scotland and it did, i got out at about the right time.

  Moved on changed with the times, got with the plan call it what you like. But fact is We are still here still getting out still shooting, still enjoying managing our shooting grounds and doing what Wildfowlers have done for ever.

   In pigeon shooting many use steel anyway i do falconry uses steel shot birds and helping a contact can move what you shoot, and recoup a little money.

Cry whinge all we want its going, as sooner we all just move on and get on with working out what it does in your shooting circumstances the better.

[Newbie to this]

29 minutes ago, Scully said:

shooting organisations have been told that lead is going, it's up to you to tell your membership

Seems that way, wasn't there recently post on here with someone high up in BASC talking of the demise of lead shot

 

 

Edited February 23, 2020 by Newbie to this
Link and factual error

[lancer425]

27 minutes ago, Scully said:

We've been here before and the debate simply goes round in circles. The facts on both sides were debated at the highest level until well after the cows came home, and it was shown that lead shot has no detrimental effects to humans if consumed in the quantities it is consumed as part of a healthy diet. If there were, then legislation preventing you feeding your children meat containing lead shot would exist. It doesn't. Even Avery ( when I debated the matter with him ) conceded that freedom to choose did exist. 

What has changed is government policy on environmental issues, and as a result our shooting organisations have been told that lead is going, it's up to you to tell your membership.....ring any bells? 😉 You won't find ANY opposition from your shooting organisations; what WILL happen is an increase in the terminology singing the praises of non lead shot, to get the membership onside.  

It's still a ban, merely via another door. 

As it once was. You may well be right, but didn't our shooting organisations state no ban until a cheap and effective alternative were found? Doesn't steel fit this criteria? 

 Yes steel fits the criteria fine, Again they said the exact same when it came in for wildfowling. Only then, we really were left high and dry. Finding any steel in some areas was near impossible for a short time.

  Look at this another way . 20 years worth of New "young wildfowlers" have no experience of lead shot in wildfowling, that is not just here but worldwide" in some countries much longer.

In the next 20 years if the police still allow us to have guns that long. There will be many like those young fowlers who will not understand what all the fuss is about.   It is all in the mind it is clouding peoples judgement and if yjey just moved on changed it will soon dawn on them its simply not all bad news. put it this way its better than not shooting.  We got way more problems than the shot we use, we really have .

.

[Scully]

36 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

 Yes steel fits the criteria fine, Again they said the exact same when it came in for wildfowling. Only then, we really were left high and dry. Finding any steel in some areas was near impossible for a short time.

  Look at this another way . 20 years worth of New "young wildfowlers" have no experience of lead shot in wildfowling, that is not just here but worldwide" in some countries much longer.

In the next 20 years if the police still allow us to have guns that long. There will be many like those young fowlers who will not understand what all the fuss is about.   It is all in the mind it is clouding peoples judgement and if yjey just moved on changed it will soon dawn on them its simply not all bad news. put it this way its better than not shooting.  We got way more problems than the shot we use, we really have .

.

I'm not arguing with you, merely telling it the way it is. If anyone believes our shooting organisations will or can fight another proposed lead ban then they're sadly mistaken.

This time it has nothing to do with health, or the welfare of fowl, but rather the environment. Those water degradable wads had better live up to the hype, because you can bet your bottom dollar plastic is next. Anyone who can come up with a non plastic, reusable cartridge case is onto a winner. 

[Stonepark]

35 minutes ago, Scully said:

 Anyone who can come up with a non plastic, reusable cartridge case is onto a winner. 

Brass, as was used before we went to paper and then plastic.

[wymberley]

8 minutes ago, Scully said:

I'm not arguing with you, merely telling it the way it is. If anyone believes our shooting organisations will or can fight another proposed lead ban then they're sadly mistaken.

This time it has nothing to do with health, or the welfare of fowl, but rather the environment. Those water degradable wads had better live up to the hype, because you can bet your bottom dollar plastic is next. Anyone who can come up with a non plastic, reusable cartridge case is onto a winner. 

Nah, Scully, Mate, don't argue just lie down and let them walk all over us as it's not going to be easy to find and combat the fifth column lurking among us. We had enough trouble with the last one. Remember? I don't mind a fair fight but when faced with lies and innuendo, the only way to beat it is to go in harder. "In the next 20 years if the police still allow us to have guns" Little dig, prod, dig. As far as I'm aware it's not the police that allow us to have guns and besides what has that got to do with lead shot. "Yes, steel  fills the criteria." No it doesn't; not across the board it doesn't.

Talking of criteria, let's have a look at those for the introduction of NTS and their source. There's no need to look further than the Introduction of the report that DoE commissioned following a contract awarded to UCL and which resulted in the formationof the BRL. These 4 (three others plus the NT requirement) were agreed by all stakeholders including the Governmnet and have yet to be universally met. We were shafted from the off.

The trouble is it is inevitable that we are going to lose the battle to a degree but it is down to us to fight harder and limit any detrimental effects as far as is possible.

Now, things will rumble on for a few years yet by which time I'll have used up my stock of lead and be well out of it. So when the time comes my suggestion would be that you unite behind just one single argument which will not, cannot, upset the people that we're up against (with one exception, of course) and might just meet with their approval as we're showing willing and simply demand that as this NTS is simply for the environment and does have an adverse affect on those using it, then it should be exempt from VAT on the valid grounds that the economic (affordable) requirement has still to be met. Now everyone - except Gov.UK - is going to approve of this so it'll mean that we can rumble on for another few years while they all cough and splutter before thinking of what to do next.

 

[rbrowning2]

2 hours ago, Scully said:

We've been here before and the debate simply goes round in circles. The facts on both sides were debated at the highest level until well after the cows came home, and it was shown that lead shot has no detrimental effects to humans if consumed in the quantities it is consumed as part of a healthy diet. If there were, then legislation preventing you feeding your children meat containing lead shot would exist. It doesn't. Even Avery ( when I debated the matter with him ) conceded that freedom to choose did exist. 

What has changed is government policy on environmental issues, and as a result our shooting organisations have been told that lead is going, it's up to you to tell your membership.....ring any bells? 😉 You won't find ANY opposition from your shooting organisations; what WILL happen is an increase in the terminology singing the praises of non lead shot, to get the membership onside.  

It's still a ban, merely via another door. 

As it once was. You may well be right, but didn't our shooting organisations state no ban until a cheap and effective alternative were found? Doesn't steel fit this criteria? 

No steel does not fit this criteria,  it is expensive if used with the current biodegradable wads which I think are only so far available in 12ga anyway.

Otherwise we swap putting lead back in the ground from where it came from in the first place for a cheap steel cartridge plastic wad that will be around in the environment for hundreds of years.  At a time when the focus is also to remove plastic from products and the environment.

So at this time no cheap and effective alternative for all situations exists, which is why the potential impact on a ban on lead was t9 happen soon could have serious consequences for shooting both shotgun and rifle.

 

 

[lancer425]

6 hours ago, Scully said:

I'm not arguing with you, merely telling it the way it is. If anyone believes our shooting organisations will or can fight another proposed lead ban then they're sadly mistaken.

This time it has nothing to do with health, or the welfare of fowl, but rather the environment. Those water degradable wads had better live up to the hype, because you can bet your bottom dollar plastic is next. Anyone who can come up with a non plastic, reusable cartridge case is onto a winner. 

I do not understand why we would be arguing. From how i see it your words quoted here could just as easy be my words exactly.

I just mentioned the Retoric before the lead ban was the same. not until viable allternative ETC. We had The MOLLYSHOT fiasco, the monthly Sporting gun robin scott and cos updates on the HUT and where were were up to in New shot technology, l months of this and WHAM!   It was here.. And right on the season start.  We had next to no available ammo, and what was there wqas terrible. Gamebore Supper steel was about it and solway steel. We had the Eley Buffered bismuth loads and stuff they made in Birmingham unbuffered. Little reload data, and we were up reloading on lymans 5th handbook and Guess work literally in that order.

With the pending ban, we are much better prepared, components for reloaders and Even the factory fodder has got slightly better . So the transition is set and should be quite smooth. The hard work has already been done.

 Card cup wads were supposed to be ok for steel, but i have heard they can allow bore contact. I was told its around the slits.  No experience myself, but it was suggested to me putting an aluminium foil inside the cup prevented the wad around the slits being chewed up and solved the problem. this sounded a little sketchy to me, but i have not tried it.

[lancer425]

6 hours ago, wymberley said:

Nah, Scully, Mate, don't argue just lie down and let them walk all over us as it's not going to be easy to find and combat the fifth column lurking among us. We had enough trouble with the last one. Remember? I don't mind a fair fight but when faced with lies and innuendo, the only way to beat it is to go in harder. "In the next 20 years if the police still allow us to have guns" Little dig, prod, dig. As far as I'm aware it's not the police that allow us to have guns and besides what has that got to do with lead shot. "Yes, steel  fills the criteria." No it doesn't; not across the board it doesn't.

Talking of criteria, let's have a look at those for the introduction of NTS and their source. There's no need to look further than the Introduction of the report that DoE commissioned following a contract awarded to UCL and which resulted in the formationof the BRL. These 4 (three others plus the NT requirement) were agreed by all stakeholders including the Governmnet and have yet to be universally met. We were shafted from the off.

The trouble is it is inevitable that we are going to lose the battle to a degree but it is down to us to fight harder and limit any detrimental effects as far as is possible.

Now, things will rumble on for a few years yet by which time I'll have used up my stock of lead and be well out of it. So when the time comes my suggestion would be that you unite behind just one single argument which will not, cannot, upset the people that we're up against (with one exception, of course) and might just meet with their approval as we're showing willing and simply demand that as this NTS is simply for the environment and does have an adverse affect on those using it, then it should be exempt from VAT on the valid grounds that the economic (affordable) requirement has still to be met. Now everyone - except Gov.UK - is going to approve of this so it'll mean that we can rumble on for another few years while they all cough and splutter before thinking of what to do next.

 

Non toxic shot in USA Australia and NZ but here iTS NON LEAD SHOT.

It is not about laying down and taking anything. We will never win this on PRICE point of ammo/ shot types. Steel is here known and it is working. The steel cap fits and we will be wearing it and across the board.

  We do not have a hope in heck  of ever getting anywhere with trying to stop this, we have no grounds in which to challenge it.  Lead is a four letter word Steel is five and if the 5th column on here love it or loath it is irrelevant its on its way so five is alive and lead is dead, lets get with it move on and keep shooting.  we got way more bother than wasting energy on fretting about what shot we shoot.

[rbrowning2]

Well this is basc current position on lead shot

https://basc.org.uk/lead/

the card cup wads you mention are around £150.00 per 1000 just for the wads that’s five times the cost of average fibre wads and the card cups are only available in 12ga.

For wild fowling their is a big difference in quantity required and what you are prepared to pay for that which is a relatively minor part of the shooting industry,

And the danish certainly do not like the plastic wad  pollution, being among the top ten plastic pollution found on their shoreline.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29525627

 

Edited February 23, 2020 by rbrowning2

[lancer425]

7 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

Well this is basc current position on lead shot

https://basc.org.uk/lead/

the card cup wads you mention are around £150.00 per 1000 just for the wads that’s five times the cost of average fibre wads and the card cups are only available in 12ga.

For wild fowling their is a big difference in quantity required and what you are prepared to pay for that which is a relatively minor part of the shooting industry,

And the danish certainly do not like the plastic pollution, being among the top ten plastic pollution found on their shoreline.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29525627

 

They used to be available in 8ga 10ga 12ga and i think 20ga. When CGR were at antons gowt."Charlton days".

£150 a 1000 is expensive, and it is not the whole story fibre wads are still needed so it puts it over that price around a 3rd more. so not cheap. But that does not mean to say they will always be that price as they become more mainstream in use, prices fall.

Plastic as not gone yet , i am not saying it wont, but we need to think about the now, and just go with what is needed. that is Stop using lead, go with the alternatives of our choice and load them as they are being loaded curently, most factory ammo in steel etc is plaswad so go with that for the moment, await development hopefully before they look at banning plastic.

Do not get hung up too much about WJ/ averey getting his way, it was always on the cards and if he had never been born. i doubt we would be in any different sittuation to what we are in now.

If averey / WJ claim they brought about change or not we can not control that, but what we can do is At least go with the proposed Voluntary ban.

[wymberley]

50 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

Non toxic shot in USA Australia and NZ but here iTS NON LEAD SHOT.

It is not about laying down and taking anything. We will never win this on PRICE point of ammo/ shot types. Steel is here known and it is working. The steel cap fits and we will be wearing it and across the board.

  We do not have a hope in heck  of ever getting anywhere with trying to stop this, we have no grounds in which to challenge it.  Lead is a four letter word Steel is five and if the 5th column on here love it or loath it is irrelevant its on its way so five is alive and lead is dead, lets get with it move on and keep shooting.  we got way more bother than wasting energy on fretting about what shot we shoot.

No, it was NTS when it first appeared and if someone wants to change it for whatever reason - some pointless reason - I'll give it a miss. If you still have doubts, sing out and I'll post a photo of the title page of the report I mentioned earlier. I wonder if you're also in denial that initially we had to go up three shot sizes until it was realised that it was becoming a bit of a joke and so fudged it to make it look better. No matter how much fancy rhetoric you use, steel simply doesn't meet the criteria across the board. I was using it back in the 80s and I'm fully aware that it does work - as did the zinc when I was testing that for the makers.

[Dave at kelton]

Interesting thread and obviously varying opinions. On the wildfowling front I was extremely sceptical about steel until I moved up here three and a half years ago and started using it in 10 or 12 bore. I am very satisfied it does the job for that in guns that are suitable for it. The eight digests only tungsten so I leave that out of the equation. I have tried bismuth and remain unimpressed but will use it in my percussion guns when I need to.
 

What I have not done is to use steel on any other game shooting or clays. Given my unfounded scepticism on wildfowl, in so far as I have a gun that I can use it in I am prepared to give it a go this year on clays and game and then see how I feel. I don’t shoot extreme birds just standard sporting stuff so let’s see how it goes. Can’t be fairer than that.

[rbrowning2]

[lancer425]

1 hour ago, wymberley said:

No, it was NTS when it first appeared and if someone wants to change it for whatever reason - some pointless reason - I'll give it a miss. If you still have doubts, sing out and I'll post a photo of the title page of the report I mentioned earlier. I wonder if you're also in denial that initially we had to go up three shot sizes until it was realised that it was becoming a bit of a joke and so fudged it to make it look better. No matter how much fancy rhetoric you use, steel simply doesn't meet the criteria across the board. I was using it back in the 80s and I'm fully aware that it does work - as did the zinc when I was testing that for the makers.

Ok if it was NTS or not, we had indeed still have non lead in place, my point being it is a  LEAD ban. And i am in denial about nothing.  Steel  was good enough for them to introduce the ban, if it matched lead exactly or not gram per Cc and £4£ or not made no odds. We got the ban in wildfowling . and My point was it wont make any difference in this pending lead ban either.

As for  Steel what it looses in mass /ftlbs/ GRAMS/CC whatever you term it as. It still works if it has quite the same pellet count or not results are what counts.   I will link below the dove video again, it is as close and fair in approach to field performance lead vs steel as you could produce. The findings of that reserch, are in line with what wildfowlers see in using steel, in that it works better than we ever thought it would in the field.

 The laws of physics still apply of course they do, but shotguning/ wingshooting by its very nature is complex, and when you look at the variables with steel the things that make it work at its best, it tends to fly in opposition to what you could ever expect it too, or what our experts told it would do.

we were told categorically 1/2 would work like full choke. cylinder was 1/4. and full would be a bad idea and unusable. yet the reality was very different. It took a American waterfowler JP, to realise that he could get results with his Hastings chokes with steelloads he was using at the time fast loads, nothing up to full choke could produce. He went to Jeff Hajar at SRM, who then wewnt on to produce Terror choke tubes, and the die was cast, others followed suit tighter than full to way tighter than full.   We never got any info on this aspect, it was worked out by using it in the field seeing what worked and what did not.

 The ITM story was equally fraught with complexity, the early ITM soft and patterns were terrible with the wad system employed in the kits sold by OLD CGR in the early days of the lead ban. bismuth again we got misinformation, talk of a brittle  nature of that shot, but wildfowlers here and abroad soon got to grips with what made it work and these two shot types were the premium alternatives to humble steel for some time in the non lead wildfowling scene.

 today we have HW/ TSS/ toungsten heavyweight shots, in all their gravities / names HW13"more or bless powershot of old etc" HW15 & HW18/ 19 on occasion all are proving good performers in the field.  And little if any advice from any researchers over here, because we do not have any.

 Like steel, it was worked out to best effect by wildfowlers and turkey shooters / coyote shooters in the states and here , going out and working out what gets it done with these shots.  the us cartridge companies are doing some reserch and producing some TSS ammo , but i doubt we will see any until lead is completely banned, and if we do it will be from Gamebore and be pushed by their USA/ kent connection rather than the frigid UK ammo marketplace which has its head firmly embedded in the dead lead world of yesteryar.

Many wildfowlers myself included , have seen the light with HW shot, its not all about the glamorous HW18TSS either 13 weight in 12s and Hw15 in the 20s work well. And the latter can be reasonably economical to use and work great at same ranges.

No idea how all this will work out in the commercial scene over here. but one thing i think we can be sure of is Steel will be the mainstay of the non lead shot types regardless of it it matches exactly lead on performance or cost .

[lancer425]

34 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

No surprises there is there?  Typical expected reaction to how BASC are handling things. I think they are doing a good job.

 Lead ban is coming lets slow it down, urge voluntary ban ma\ke some time. get shooters on line with what is coming.

Get ready for the inevitable. that of steel being promoted, and in equal measure BASC bashing in it most vigilant and unpleasant form.Happy days.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 23, 2020 by lancer425

[rbrowning2]

Very unlikely as of today to match on cost given the “end of single use plastic”, but we can live in hope it will be the driving force behind yet more technical advances that will drive down costs over the next five years, but I wonder if that time scale will be seen as to long by those outside shooting.

 

[lancer425]

5 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

Very unlikely as of today to match on cost given the “end of single use plastic”, but we can live in hope it will be the driving force behind yet more technical advances that will drive down costs over the next five years, but I wonder if that time scale will be seen as to long by those outside shooting.

 

Possibly but these things are outside of our control, stamping our feet screaming for more BASC blood as on the thread raging on general shooting forum here, is not the way forward. what the heck is expected of BASC? what mare could they do, they are not the government.  they are doing what they can do, and getting zero thanks for any of that. All we are going to see is venting off about BASC by the unhappy campers at the lets just not give a flying fig about throwing toxic lead about the place camp-site.

That thread will do 20 pages easy just you watch.

[Smokersmith]

It’ll be interesting to see the values achieved at the next ‘fine gun’ sales.

[lancer425]

29 minutes ago, Smokersmith said:

It’ll be interesting to see the values achieved at the next ‘fine gun’ sales.

I gave up what i considered my fine guns/ three big bore hammer guns. They went just before the Wildfowling lead ban.  Everything i got now is steel compatable, about the most fragile is a spanish sidelock 12, but that will be ok on normal steel anyway. To be honest most guns will be mate has a tomas wild 3 inch mag hammer gun full and full, 1920s AFAIK. and he is shoving 3 inch reloads through it of BBs, its been doing that since the lead ban and its showing no issues yet.

[sam triple]

 

[Smokersmith]

9 hours ago, lancer425 said:

I gave up what i considered my fine guns/ three big bore hammer guns. They went just before the Wildfowling lead ban.  Everything i got now is steel compatable, about the most fragile is a spanish sidelock 12, but that will be ok on normal steel anyway. To be honest most guns will be mate has a tomas wild 3 inch mag hammer gun full and full, 1920s AFAIK. and he is shoving 3 inch reloads through it of BBs, its been doing that since the lead ban and its showing no issues yet.

Whilst I can appreciate that as an early adopter, you post after post trying to help people to see the possibilities of non-toxic .... I cannot see how the fact that 'you’re OK’ is relevant to my post about the value of fine guns in the future.
 

My collection is also future proof, but there’s no doubt in my mind that many cherished heirlooms will plummet in value over the next years.

Edited February 24, 2020 by Smokersmith