Lead ban & BASC

[clangerman]

1 hour ago, grahamch said:

This thread is going in ever decreasing circles. Is it time to close comments on it? 

no we are getting to the part where we pretend nobody done wrong and hear the let’s pull together flannel that always the funniest part 

[Konor]

2 minutes ago, clangerman said:

no we are getting to the part where we pretend nobody done wrong and hear the let’s pull together flannel that always the funniest part 

I thought the funny part was when shooters were advocating banning game shooting and calling for a total lead ban to include clay shooting I thought I was on an anti forum. 
Where’s the flannel in pulling together. I’m always amused by people who argue on the internet,an extreme example of that can be found on the American double gun forum, I’ve never seen anyone change their position in argument on the web so figure it’s a pointless exercise and a waste of time.

As for pulling together well that’s up to the individual there will always be those who continually seek to be contrary it’s part of their character.

[maxum]

15 hours ago, rbrowning2 said:

According to lord Geoffrey Dear Basc president in the basc magazine just received,  the case that lead is toxic is well proven, if as it seems likely EU countries shortly ban the sale of game shot with lead then 70 per cent of game currently shot in the uk which is exported to the continent will not have a market, where will it then go, and how robust will be the argument that everything that we shoot goes into the food chain?
 

from the above it is quite clear that basc is only concerned with saving the large commercial shoots and does not care how they achieve that, as I doubt game from smaller shoots ends up being part of the 70 per cent that is exported.

and given the five year transition period will result if lead shot game still being a significant part of the 70 per cent unless very carefully vetted and then the export quantity would fall considerably, the consequence could be the export market is lost anyway without an immediate comprehensive ban on lead.

 

Spot on.

Cui Bono!

With supermarkets & Game Dealers boycotting lead shot meat where else are the millions of shot birds going to go ? Landfill.

Go figure

[clangerman]

2 minutes ago, Konor said:

I thought the funny part was when shooters were advocating banning game shooting and calling for a total lead ban to include clay shooting I thought I was on an anti forum. 
Where’s the flannel in pulling together. I’m always amused by people who argue on the internet,an extreme example of that can be found on the American double gun forum, I’ve never seen anyone change their position in argument on the web so figure it’s a pointless exercise and a waste of time.

As for pulling together well that’s up to the individual there will always be those who continually seek to be contrary it’s part of their character.

no point asking one of my old boys to pull together gave his kit away yesterday because it’s going to be to expensive a lot of that to come and nobody is going to be held accountable you have to laugh when we never learn our lessons 

[lancer425]

1 hour ago, Konor said:

Pigeon watch makes up a small part of the shooting community and the contributors to this thread are a small part of Pigeon watch so I would be wary of drawing too many conclusions from such a small sample of shooters. I do think though that the range of opinions expressed  will reflect a polarisation of opinion in general.

I was brought up on the Solway side and have shot it for nearly fifty years I know a few wildfowlers who hand load I know far more who don’t and have no desire to. Going to the shore with a ten bore for geese or flighting wigeon under the moon with a light twelve has been the extent of my fowling a little over a long period of time. Like many I have no interest in working up loads or investing the time and money to do so but I do have a respect for those who do and share their findings and enthusiasm with others..

I think we should bear in mind that we all have far more in common than divides us, that appeasement is a poor strategy and that the anti fieldsports supporters will only be happy when there is no shooting of wildlife whatsoever no matter the consequences. It’s us and them and I’m with us.

I’m not a big fan of censorship

I respect that Konor what you do, wildfowling is not all about big bores and knocking long range geese out. I was  not born in scotland but the solway i know very well indeed, and many of the re loaders you speak of up there. I do also agree this forum and those on it are the whole story, but on this subject here we can not be divided.

 There is only one direction to go the direction of a shooting community without Lead shot.  We can not fight this, Dave carie can rally the faithful all he wants, but What grounds we are ever going to fight this on are old hat been done to death 20 years ago. there are no new avenues to go down any more.

In reallity the BASC&other shooting orgs suggestion is the only way to go go.

 

[mick miller]

7 minutes ago, Konor said:

I thought the funny part was when shooters were advocating banning game shooting... 

What's wrong saying you shoot but are opposed to wholesale, large game shooting for fun? That's like saying you eat beef so you find bull fighting acceptable.

And what is wrong with highlighting the holes in the evidence for this about face being presented? If lead shot, in any amount, is so deadly and can be eaten by birds that mistake it for grit /seed then presumably the same birds can pick it up from clay grounds just as easily? Or do we assume they're smart enough to tell the difference between a field used to shoot game over, but not one used to shoot clays over yet not smart enough to differentiate between shot and seed? Which is it? 

Let's not lie about this, this has all been done to preserve a way of life for a tiny minority and damn the consequences for anyone else.

And if you think the real antis cannot reach these same conclusions themselves, in a similarly short period, you're deluded. 

 

 

[lancer425]

9 minutes ago, clangerman said:

no point asking one of my old boys to pull together gave his kit away yesterday because it’s going to be to expensive a lot of that to come and nobody is going to be held accountable you have to laugh when we never learn our lessons 

What do you mean by ACCOUNTABLE? And for what?

[motty]

9 hours ago, Rob85 said:

Starting to think we are flogging a dead horse with this thread now.... or flogging a dead BASC for that matter. In the short term I think cartridge manufacturers need to up their production of standard pressure steel. It might not be to everyone's taste or their expensive guns taste, so buy a cheap Baikal or hatsan escort or something like that and abuse it until something else comes along at a reasonable price that you can run through a 50grand purdey. Is it not better to have a gun to continue your sport than get hung up on the pretty safe queens that some people own? 5 years may not be enough time to develop new and exciting stuff but in 5 years you could have still be shooting with beater gun that will devour steel and still clatter pigeons at a shade over 30 yards than sitting on your backside crying that you can't shoot as there's no lead. I think BASC et al have bolted the horse from the stable and there's no going back now. WJ, the government and every anti in the country will be on this and you cannot un-ring the bell so I think we will all just have to get on with it as essentially your only other option is to stop shooting live animals and stick with clays or hand in your guns. As for my guns I'll just be getting my chokes bored out for standard steel and buying a hatsan for shooting anything a bit more spicy.

Don't be in a rush to remove choke from any guns.

[clangerman]

4 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

What do you mean by ACCOUNTABLE? And for what?

if i need to explain by this stage i need to jack it in myself

[motty]

25 minutes ago, clangerman said:

no point asking one of my old boys to pull together gave his kit away yesterday because it’s going to be to expensive a lot of that to come and nobody is going to be held accountable you have to laugh when we never learn our lessons 

A bit of an extreme reaction! Why would anyone do that?

[clangerman]

Just now, motty said:

A bit of an extreme reaction! Why would anyone do that?

i told him to carry on but he thinks it’s going to be a dear job i’m not going to press him when he might be right have to let him be i think 

[motty]

1 hour ago, mick miller said:

What's wrong saying you shoot but are opposed to wholesale, large game shooting for fun? That's like saying you eat beef so you find bull fighting acceptable.

And what is wrong with highlighting the holes in the evidence for this about face being presented? If lead shot, in any amount, is so deadly and can be eaten by birds that mistake it for grit /seed then presumably the same birds can pick it up from clay grounds just as easily? Or do we assume they're smart enough to tell the difference between a field used to shoot game over, but not one used to shoot clays over yet not smart enough to differentiate between shot and seed? Which is it? 

Let's not lie about this, this has all been done to preserve a way of life for a tiny minority and damn the consequences for anyone else.

And if you think the real antis cannot reach these same conclusions themselves, in a similarly short period, you're deluded. 

 

 

Are you done being a hypocrite?

Big bag days are not my thing, but it is shooting for enjoyment. You shoot for enjoyment, too - you just do it differently. 

42 minutes ago, clangerman said:

i told him to carry on but he thinks it’s going to be a dear job i’m not going to press him when he might be right have to let him be i think 

He obviously doesn't love shooting, then.

Edited March 3, 2020 by motty

[lancer425]

3 minutes ago, mick miller said:

What's wrong saying you shoot but are opposed to wholesale, large game shooting for fun? That's like saying you eat beef so you find bull fighting acceptable.

And what is wrong with highlighting the holes in the evidence for this about face being presented? If lead shot, in any amount, is so deadly and can be eaten by birds that mistake it for grit /seed then presumably the same birds can pick it up from clay grounds just as easily? Or do we assume they're smart enough to tell the difference between a field used to shoot game over, but not one used to shoot clays over yet not smart enough to differentiate between shot and seed? Which is it? 

Let's not lie about this, this has all been done to preserve a way of life for a tiny minority and damn the consequences for anyone else.

And if you think the real antis cannot reach these same conclusions themselves, in a similarly short period, you're deluded. 

 

 

Mick the big thing about a field used to shoot game over or a clay ground. is clayground is a controlled environment, you can go in reclaim the lead shot gather up the wads etc.  And key point is nobody eats the dusted bitumen.

 Game shoots are or should be about estates syndicates or a few farmers having the will wherewithall to Create the habitat to manage predation breed or buy in birds release introduce and care for the growing birds, then harvest them in a clean humane way. Getting money from those who want to harvest the crop and sell the end product to game dealers in a way they want them delivered. IE in this case not full of Lead shot.

  All the time this is going on and outside the season too the land used is providing a safe breeding ground for unrelated species over vast areas of our countryside and all at zero cost to the government and tax payers.

 Providing jobs to the estates and wider local community and surrounding businesses.

  If game shooting was not going on on this land who will pay to maintain it to the standard it is now?

The bill will ultimately land with the tax payers of this country. Or habitat will suffer and economy and revenue fall or disappear all together again it all needs paying for when now its free.

Go to the village school gather up the mums rev them up with a few gruesome stories piles of dead birds , they will rally to WJ and such like in a second. But gather them up the next year when the shoots have gone. Give them their tax bill show them how NE and defra have waisted their tax money. and see if they do not change their mind fast.

  the only people who generally care whole heartedly about this country of ours and what goes on here is US folk. The shooting community . Nobody else cares about that old patch of woodland of little monetary value re timber, but the haven it provides and pleasure it offers that group of shooters is immeasurable. Game shooting at all levels really is a great thing.

 

 

[lancer425]

42 minutes ago, maxum said:

Spot on.

Cui Bono!

With supermarkets & Game Dealers boycotting lead shot meat where else are the millions of shot birds going to go ? Landfill.

Go figure

In to the game dealers we just need to stop using lead. Birds or game dealers do not know if they are shot in plastic wads or card cups, its not law so just use steel as it is now. as in say a bog standard supper steel 4 or 5.

Market is still there shoot gets paid its into the meat systen free of lead.

 We got some ground to catch up on the trust is just not there anymore in the shooting world thanks partialy to the lead in ducks into game dealers issue . but We really have to start somewhere here right now with basic plaswad steel is the only option to take right now, in fact the only option we can take if we are going to start this ball rolling.

1 hour ago, clangerman said:

no we are getting to the part where we pretend nobody done wrong and hear the let’s pull together flannel that always the funniest part 

We are not getting to this part because nobody did any wrong in the first place. Baying for blood is stupid and unfounded  above all its destructive and thoroughly bad form . I find it hard to believe you are persisting with this perverse line of thinking.

[lancer425]

30 minutes ago, clangerman said:

if i need to explain by this stage i need to jack it in myself

Don’t be silly your just excited that’s all, calm down and get over yourself. You can not give it up any more than the rest of us can, sit back and wait. You might be surprised what comes of all this given time.

[8 shot]

Why are wildfowlers happy to pollute our shores with plastic wads ? 

[Old farrier]

First I should say I’m with lancer on this it may not seem that way at times but basically the only way forward is to use biodegradable wads and non lead shot 

the biggest problem will be getting the game sold 

this’ll mean anyone shooting game complying 

any wounded birds going on to the boundary into the next shoot could end up in there game cart 

this was demonstrated in the early days of wildfowl shooting 

the next thing is to sort out the best cartridges for the job the heavy Wildfowlers loads are probably going to be overkill on this 

[clangerman]

1 hour ago, lancer425 said:

Don’t be silly your just excited that’s all, calm down and get over yourself. You can not give it up any more than the rest of us can, sit back and wait. You might be surprised what comes of all this given time.

don’t worry i’m not giving it up it’s actually just bought some free kit my way which is a tiny plus 

[lancer425]

1 hour ago, 8 shot said:

Why are wildfowlers happy to pollute our shores with plastic wads ? 

Trust me we are not, and you watch the uptake when we get hold of good ones. if you look on here say two years ago its in regular discussion. We want to change but like Game shooters we have few options available. This will change i am sure it will.

[MrPhantom]

2 hours ago, lancer425 said:

Mick the big thing about a field used to shoot game over or a clay ground. is clayground is a controlled environment, you can go in reclaim the lead shot gather up the wads etc.  And key point is nobody eats the dusted bitumen.

I agree with a lot of points you have been making but in this case you are talking about registered clay grounds. What about the 'straw balers'? These are not controlled environments. We rent a couple of fields from a friendly farmer and set up our own traps (in different locations each time) every other week for a 50 bird shoot. Purely for fun with a group of like minded mates.  I imagine this goes on all over the country and mostly on a larger scale.

No chance of any lead being reclaimed - yes, obviously fibre only but I can see where Mick is coming from.

[lancer425]

11 minutes ago, clangerman said:

don’t worry i’m not giving it up it’s actually just bought some free kit my way which is a tiny plus 

Thats good. Act in haste repent at leisure.

[lancer425]

Just now, MrPhantom said:

I agree with a lot of points you have been making but in this case you are talking about registered clay grounds. What about the 'straw balers'? These are not controlled environments. We rent a couple of fields from a friendly farmer and set up our own traps (in different locations each time) every other week for a 50 bird shoot. Purely for fun with a group of like minded mates.  I imagine this goes on all over the country and mostly on a larger scale.

No chance of any lead being reclaimed - yes, obviously fibre only but I can see where Mick is coming from.

Ok agree but they are not putting lead into game that’s where they get by. Also i imagine limited in days generally noise etc so might be some time before you are walking around on lead shot as described in another thread on this subject.

 Felt wads good. not shooting game so good. On clays i imagine they would like us to reclaim lead, but really what you describe is ticking all the right boxes for now as it is.

[Konor]

2 hours ago, mick miller said:

What's wrong saying you shoot but are opposed to wholesale, large game shooting for fun? That's like saying you eat beef so you find bull fighting acceptable.

And what is wrong with highlighting the holes in the evidence for this about face being presented? If lead shot, in any amount, is so deadly and can be eaten by birds that mistake it for grit /seed then presumably the same birds can pick it up from clay grounds just as easily? Or do we assume they're smart enough to tell the difference between a field used to shoot game over, but not one used to shoot clays over yet not smart enough to differentiate between shot and seed? Which is it? 

Let's not lie about this, this has all been done to preserve a way of life for a tiny minority and damn the consequences for anyone else.

And if you think the real antis cannot reach these same conclusions themselves, in a similarly short period, you're deluded. 

 

 

What’s wrong with advocating a ban on game rearing is where do you draw the line. The small syndicate I am part of releases a few hundred birds each year. Average bag for the day is between 15 and 30 and is that to the end of the season. I have no time for excessive bags whether it is pheasants ,geese inland or on the shore or ducks on a flight pond particularly the latter. However the small pheasant shoots are a great introduction to shooting and those new to shooting can be guided as to best practice, it also allows like minded people to share experience and introduce others to different areas of shooting eg taking someone out stalking or onto the shore or flight pond..I have also taken folk from the city out beating to give them an insight one of whom successfully sat his DSC1 and now stalks deer.
In an age where wildfowlers average age is steadily rising trying to encourage youngsters to go out onto the shore and stick at it is an uphill task ,an introduction through syndicate shooting is an easier option with the hope that through contacts they may later be bitten by the wildfowling bug. So my fear is the loss of that if it is decided that game rearing should be banned.

As lancer 425 has said clay shooting with lead over a designated area confines the problem and allows a cleanup but importantly to me it will allow me to use my Damascus barrelled side by side and so allow me to still enjoy shooting it more frequently than would putting bismuth through it. With 12 bore inserts it would also permit those with retired big bore wildfowling guns the opportunity for a shot for old times sake.

I don’t understand your point in your last two sentences anti fieldsports supporters have one goal, no half way house no letting you off the hook because you don’t only shoot driven game they want your guns out of your hands and all shooting to cease and if you think that’s not the case and that any concessions you are willing to make will appease them then I’m afraid you are the deluded one.

You only have to look at the opposition by anti fieldsports supporters to wildfowling on local nature reserves whose formation were instigated by Local wildfowlers to quickly grasp the reality of the situation

[mick miller]

I'm just trying to highlight the potential holes in the arguments, as presented. All the orgs. need to be extremely wary of the information they put out to add weight to their arguments, which as it currently stands is simply about defending a minority within a minority. Whatever your feelings about large-scale game shooting; ambivalence, support or, as in my case, morally opposed (but I'm not about to go and protest about it), the fact remains that there will be unavoidable creep from this statement, unintended consequences and the risks to everyone else need to be mitigated. Given the fustercluck around the statement release I'm not convinced any of the orgs, with BASC the largest, have given this 'mission creep' any consideration at all. I certainly don't trust their wisdom.

If the medicals fiasco has taught us one thing, it is that the UK loves to gold plate any new legislation, if that further encroaches on a sector of society whose pastimes many are already uncomfortable with, all the better.

So, to be specific, using footage of a GWCT spokeswoman stating how shot is picked up 'mistakenly, perhaps as seed or grit' to bolster the argument is not a wise choice. That can easily be twisted and used against clay shooters to further demand the same restrictions should apply there. Or, perhaps consider this: 'the road to Hell is paved with good intentions'.

 

Edited March 3, 2020 by mick miller

[Konor]

2 minutes ago, mick miller said:

I'm just trying to highlight the potential holes in the arguments, as presented. All the orgs. need to be extremely wary of the information they put out to add weight to their arguments, which as it currently stands is simply about defending a minority within a minority. Whatever your feelings about large-scale game shooting; ambivalence, support or, as in my case, morally opposed (but I'm not about to go and protest about it), the fact remains that there will be unavoidable creep from this statement, unintended consequences and the risks to everyone else need to be mitigated. Given the fustercluck around the statement release I'm not convinced any of the orgs, with BASC the largest, have given this any consideration at all. I certainly don't trust their wisdom.

If the medicals fiasco has taught us one thing, it is that the UK loves to gold plate any new legislation, if that further encroaches on a sector of society whose pastimes many are already uncomfortable with, all the better.

 

I somewhat agree with you Mick in some of what you have posted.Big bag days and that other pastime  extreme game shooting are all about business and as such have different priorities to those whose sporting instincts are fulfilled by more modest days afield , however if the substantial amounts of large estates were to opt out of game shooting for revenue due to a rearing ban that would make all us rough shooters wildfowlers  and small syndicate shooters far more vulnerable to attack. I don’t think you can reason with an anti and once they have removed one obstacle they just move on to the next more emboldened by their success. I want as many obstacles between them and my modest enjoyment of what I participate in as possible and while I feel the commercial sector could do with some reforming I am glad they are fighting in my corner against the bleak prospect of an anti driven agenda so albeit with some reservations I’ll be fighting in their corner.

I won’t be fighting a lead ban just to allow extreme pheasant shooting to continue though ,that would be a step too far for me. I’ll weigh up my options come the time and until then enjoy game shooting with lead and fibre as I have done these past fifty years in my damascus barrelled gun and try out steel in the others as hopefully development progresses. I won’t be packing in even if circumstances dictate a single barrelled open bored baikal.