Lead ban & BASC

[lancer425]

3 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

The argument is not that we know we must move away from lead shot but could we have not gone about it in a much better way and still taken the initiative prior to any legal ban?

I truthfully have no idea, but i am not privy to all the facts yet, ask me when we get the whole story and we are not just fishing around for clues.

I am prepared to say right now i think its probably been done about the best it could have been done.

1 minute ago, clangerman said:

i was over it on day one because i gave shooting ten years tops after this mess i give it five so the ban is irrelevant when we all we are using is catapults on the plus side ball bearings are the best ammo 

Your pessimism is always an inspiration clangerman it has to be noted.

[rbrowning2]

I am prepared to say right now i think its probably been done about the best it could have been done.

sincerley hope you are never involved with project managing critical system like nuclear power stations or other such projects where risk assessments and critical path analysis are required together with over project management techniques.

If this truly is the best way to bring about a change to non toxic shot then indeed clangerman is likely to be correct.

 

[lancer425]

6 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

I am prepared to say right now i think its probably been done about the best it could have been done.

sincerley hope you are never involved with project managing critical system like nuclear power stations or other such projects where risk assessments and critical path analysis are required together with over project management techniques.

If this truly is the best way to bring about a change to non toxic shot then indeed clangerman is likely to be correct.

 

Its been talked about 20 or more years, its been gone from fowling 20 years, but still the shooters in this country are shooting ducks illegally with lead, and turning them into game dealers full of Lead. Year upon year, and after seeing the cat was out the bag. The shooting world here just does not care.

How do you reach people like this.?  With difficulty that’s how.

What brought this action from the orgs on.? was sheer desperation. That is what!.

Me nuclear management. Not me. Sorry.

[grahamch]

I see from the latest press release BASC et al have approached government to see if R&D finance can be provided to cartridge makers.

The UK shooting industry/community contains some hugely rich folk from here and overseas who could well afford to bankroll cartridge developments.

I wonder if they have been approached to see if they will divvy up?  

[Dibble]

1 hour ago, rbrowning2 said:

https://markavery.info/2020/03/02/gwct-on-lead-ammunition/
 

Mark Avery agrees in that post Steel provides clean kills

" Those not ready to move away from lead yet are a mixed up crazy bunch: they think that non-toxic shot doesn’t provide a clean kill despite the testimony and evidence from shooters across the world that it does – ask a Danish wildfowler! "

I had thought that he was going to say steel is inhumane because it doesn't.

[JohnfromUK]

3 minutes ago, grahamch said:

BASC et al have approached government to see if R&D finance can be provided to cartridge makers.

I should have thought that the idea of taxpayers money being used to finance research to 'subsidise' a 'rich man's sport of killing innocent wildlife' is about as politically toxic as you can get!

[8 shot]

I've just been chatting to a friend who I beat with, and he's just made a good point on ricochet. Two of our shoots are pro dominantly flat woodland and guns shooting at shallow angles back towards us it does beg the question how long before a serious incident happens. Lets hope everyone has taken out BASC  or similar insurance.  

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, 8 shot said:

it does beg the question how long before a serious incident happens.

One risk that may be potentially greater with steel is the shot sticking together.  This rarely happens with lead, but there have apparently been instances of the steel rusting and so binding the pellets together.  This will give a 'clump' of pellets that will very probably go 'out of pattern' and will be dangerous.  I don't know what the likelihood is - and no doubt some anti corrosion treatment is applied to the shot to minimise the risks from cartridges getting damp on repeated days out, but not used for some time (e.g. lurking at the bottom of the bag).

[rbrowning2]

22 minutes ago, Dibble said:

Mark Avery agrees in that post Steel provides clean kills

" Those not ready to move away from lead yet are a mixed up crazy bunch: they think that non-toxic shot doesn’t provide a clean kill despite the testimony and evidence from shooters across the world that it does – ask a Danish wildfowler! "

I had thought that he was going to say steel is inhumane because it doesn't.

Indeed he probably watched the basc or was it fieldsports tv where the danish shooter said steel is good provided you limit the shot distance to a maximum of 30meters

 

[Dave-G]

20 minutes ago, 8 shot said:

I've just been chatting to a friend who I beat with, and he's just made a good point on ricochet. Two of our shoots are pro dominantly flat woodland and guns shooting at shallow angles back towards us it does beg the question how long before a serious incident happens. Lets hope everyone has taken out BASC  or similar insurance.  

Judging by several of the tantrums in this this thread most will have left BASC by this time next year.

[rbrowning2]

30 minutes ago, grahamch said:

I see from the latest press release BASC et al have approached government to see if R&D finance can be provided to cartridge makers.

You think they would have done that and got the funding in place before making any announcement regarding banning lead. 
after all they have had plenty of years of notice to prepare for the announcement.

so far a minimum of ten million euros of investment has got us two less than ideal non biodegradable wads I wonder how much basc asked for?

 

[motty]

44 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

One risk that may be potentially greater with steel is the shot sticking together.  This rarely happens with lead, but there have apparently been instances of the steel rusting and so binding the pellets together.  This will give a 'clump' of pellets that will very probably go 'out of pattern' and will be dangerous.  I don't know what the likelihood is - and no doubt some anti corrosion treatment is applied to the shot to minimise the risks from cartridges getting damp on repeated days out, but not used for some time (e.g. lurking at the bottom of the bag).

I have still got some years-old submerged steel shot loads. The pellets in them are not rusted together. 

I also think the risk of ricochet is not that great. 

[Salopian]

No one who as experience with steel shot has mentioned the effect of steel shot on grass/ pastureland/ environment !

The numerous chemicals sprayed onto crops by the farming community aligned with the naturally occurring ferrous oxide of steel may have a far reaching effect on our sport?

[holloway]

2 hours ago, rbrowning2 said:

Every think has changed we have publicly announced lead is toxic and a poison who will buy game now? Oh it’s ok we will just export the poison to the EU but obviously basc think that door is about to shut firmly closed. So no where for the game to enter the food chain so how the he’ll do you justify shooting it? 

Just let you into a little secret .....but keep it to yourself....everyone already knows that lead is toxic that is the point  i think .

[8 shot]

14 minutes ago, motty said:

I have still got some years-old submerged steel shot loads. The pellets in them are not rusted together. 

I also think the risk of ricochet is not that great. 

So why is it banned on most clay grounds large and small.

[rbrowning2]

49 minutes ago, holloway said:

Just let you into a little secret .....but keep it to yourself....everyone already knows that lead is toxic that is the point  i think .

Yes agree, so we have no market any longer, or so basc say for 70 per cent of the game shot, mr JR judge to mr WJ yes we can reduce the number of game birds released by 70 per cent, any objections mr basc? Er no sir job done then.

 

Edited March 2, 2020 by rbrowning2

[Old farrier]

I’ll be interested to see what cartridges the young shots are provided with on the Basc Young shots introduction to game shooting 

obviousley they will be following the voluntary ban and be supplying them with non toxic biodegradable wads suitable to shoot game with there 4.10 or 20 bores 

[wymberley]

55 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

One risk that may be potentially greater with steel is the shot sticking together.  This rarely happens with lead, but there have apparently been instances of the steel rusting and so binding the pellets together.  This will give a 'clump' of pellets that will very probably go 'out of pattern' and will be dangerous.  I don't know what the likelihood is - and no doubt some anti corrosion treatment is applied to the shot to minimise the risks from cartridges getting damp on repeated days out, but not used for some time (e.g. lurking at the bottom of the bag).

Frequently enough to be given a name and apparently is appearing now with the increasing use of over-bored barrels. There is a less severe occurance in the same vein which probabl;y goes unnoticed but is also happening sufficiently to be given a name. However, for obvious reasons it could well be on its way out.

22 minutes ago, motty said:

I have still got some years-old submerged steel shot loads. The pellets in them are not rusted together. 

I also think the risk of ricochet is not that great. 

Historically, what is the main reason for not shooting low birds?

[clangerman]

2 hours ago, lancer425 said:

I truthfully have no idea, but i am not privy to all the facts yet, ask me when we get the whole story and we are not just fishing around for clues.

I am prepared to say right now i think its probably been done about the best it could have been done.

Your pessimism is always an inspiration clangerman it has to be noted.

just being honest a rare thing these days body’s getting stuffed so prob won’t be here for the end just be nice if the grandson was banging a few over the deeks and giving the antis two fingers for me 

[lancer425]

30 minutes ago, clangerman said:

just being honest a rare thing these days body’s getting stuffed so prob won’t be here for the end just be nice if the grandson was banging a few over the deeks and giving the antis two fingers for me 

If we are stopped shooting.

Lead will not be what stops it.

There is life after lead.

Our biggest enemy is ourselves.

[Scully]

46 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

I’ll be interested to see what cartridges the young shots are provided with on the Basc Young shots introduction to game shooting 

obviousley they will be following the voluntary ban and be supplying them with non toxic biodegradable wads suitable to shoot game with there 4.10 or 20 bores 

And there we have yet another very relevant and pertinent point. 
I wonder what the answer would be? 🙂

[lancer425]

56 minutes ago, 8 shot said:

So why is it banned on most clay grounds large and small.

Prejudice coupled with ignorance coupled with Fiction. couple this with the claim it can ricochet more than lead and its history.

9 minutes ago, Scully said:

And there we have yet another very relevant and pertinent point. 
I wonder what the answer would be? 🙂

They will use Bismuth . Its that simple.

[Old farrier]

8 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

If we are stopped shooting.

Lead will not be what stops it.

There is life after lead.

Our biggest enemy is ourselves.

It’d probably be a easier life

if something was put into place to replace it affordable and available meeting the requirements before the organisations decided to ban it 

as a footnote I shoot plenty of steel cartridges for Wildfowler mostly heavy loads through a heavy gun 

gun and cartridge combination isn’t really suitable for partridge shooting 

[AULD YIN]

3 hours ago, lancer425 said:

Its been talked about 20 or more years, its been gone from fowling 20 years, but still the shooters in this country are shooting ducks illegally with lead, and turning them into game dealers full of Lead. Year upon year, and after seeing the cat was out the bag. The shooting world here just does not care.

How do you reach people like this.?  With difficulty that’s how.

What brought this action from the orgs on.? was sheer desperation. That is what!.

Me nuclear management. Not me. Sorry.

We in this country  (SCOTLAND ) can shoot ducks legally with lead ,another point you got wrong,why not give us facts instead of  your opinion of facts,dont know who your trying to convince with all your havering about ducks being turned in with lead shot causing this fiasco

Edited March 2, 2020 by AULD YIN
add on info

[lancer425]

31 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

It’d probably be a easier life

if something was put into place to replace it affordable and available meeting the requirements before the organisations decided to ban it 

as a footnote I shoot plenty of steel cartridges for Wildfowler mostly heavy loads through a heavy gun 

gun and cartridge combination isn’t really suitable for partridge shooting 

1/2 oz of pure copper 6s in a2.5 inch .410  case,  shove it with SP3. light it with a cci209m "consistant" it will kill any partridge ever breed out to about  30 yards. Copper patterns like steel. Awesome. generally. Can about duplicate that with bismuth but would have to be my own @35 tin in the melt. i would want 7s and i would need buffer. I think i could get that to 30yds  maybe a little more.

Can do well into the 40s  with 20,magnum  and into the 50s with a normal  12.

No real need for big loads around an oz is enough to get it done on game. at these closer ranges where you have pressure to spare as in the bigger gun the better, its always best to tame that pressure into speed if you can hold it altogether.  As range increases the advantages disapear. But to 25/30 yards the extra fylbs can pay dividends and if you up the FPS you can reduce the shot size gain count. But its about working out a balance between excess speed and your target range the more range the less speed matters as they cancel each other out. Man when you think about it factory ammo is very average indeed. good luck whatever you do.