Non Lead

[wymberley]

Has anyone noticed the title of this sub-forum?

[Old farrier]

17 minutes ago, wymberley said:

Has anyone noticed the title of this sub-forum?

Yes but it’s interesting stuff about guns of high value that are effectively going to become obsolete 

[wymberley]

17 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

Yes but it’s interesting stuff about guns of high value that are effectively going to become obsolete 

Which you'd expect to find on the Guns and Equipment forum. Possibly on the SbS Club until I blew it. 

[Old farrier]

28 minutes ago, wymberley said:

Which you'd expect to find on the Guns and Equipment forum. Possibly on the SbS Club until I blew it. 

No worries to me although I’m sure someone will think it’s a hanging offence 🙄

you’ll have to stand on the naughty step until you’re paying more attention 😂😂

[TIGHTCHOKE]

12 hours ago, Old farrier said:

No worries to me although I’m sure someone will think it’s a hanging offence 🙄

you’ll have to stand on the naughty step until you’re paying more attention 😂😂

[Smokersmith]

On ‎01‎/‎04‎/‎2020 at 15:17, lancer425 said:

Non lead wont damage any old gun nor will it under perform .

Steel may or may not damage an old gun, but if you want the same performance steel v lead through one of these guns, then it will damage poor sod firing it!

[London Best]

I have no intention of my old guns becoming obsolete.  
On a driven day I generally fire about 70 cartridges. If I have to use bismuth instead of lead it will cost about £60 more for the day. That is not a deal breaker on a day which may be costing £5-700.  
If forced to use steel then I am sure a lighter load fired at higher velocity will be developed suitable for the many 2 1/2 inch chambered guns still in regular use.  
21 to 25 grams (3/4 to 7/8 ounce) would be fine for most shooting.

[Dave at kelton]

43 minutes ago, London Best said:

I have no intention of my old guns becoming obsolete.  
On a driven day I generally fire about 70 cartridges. If I have to use bismuth instead of lead it will cost about £60 more for the day. That is not a deal breaker on a day which may be costing £5-700.  
If forced to use steel then I am sure a lighter load fired at higher velocity will be developed suitable for the many 2 1/2 inch chambered guns still in regular use.  
21 to 25 grams (3/4 to 7/8 ounce) would be fine for most shooting.

You put it into perspective in that the additional cost of say bismuth cartridges when taken as part of the overall cost of a reasonable day is not really a consideration. I have a number of such guns and it is not going to stop me using them, and I include muzzle loaders.

[lancer425]

2 hours ago, Smokersmith said:

Steel may or may not damage an old gun, but if you want the same performance steel v lead through one of these guns, then it will damage poor sod firing it!

Any light gun has felt recoil, but if it fits you properly and is genuinely long enough in the stock felt recoil is acceptable even on busy days its all about fit.

 Bismuth is indesypherable from lead on felt recoil, and if using steel i a light gun with short/ steep forcing cones, it might be better looking at a high velocity loading of a 7/8 . 15/16.. or 1 oz might be the way to go with large charges of slow progressive powders felt recoil and performance will be more than acceptable. the old book 1 lightening steel loads deliver and yet are soft to shiit and low pressure. ideal in such guns as these lightweight game guns.

[Salopian]

So , just hang on a minute .

If we have to make all these concessions and alterations to what we shoot how does thart fit into the acceptable , replaceable , economic alternative scenario?????

This whole debacle is a disgrace , the Trade have had more than twenty years to come up with a suitable alternative to Lead shot and have made  very little  progress , now they have to pull their finger out and come up with something in less than five years . 

STEEL SHOT IS NOT A VIABLE ALTERNATIVE TO LEAD  Never has been and never will be .

[wigeon jim]

I shoot 1 oz # 4 steel at pigeons (around 1480fps ) and I don't notice any difference to 1 oz lead loads, Jim.

[London Best]

31 minutes ago, wigeon jim said:

I shoot 1 oz # 4 steel at pigeons (around 1480fps ) and I don't notice any difference to 1 oz lead loads, Jim.

Are these handloads, Jim, or commercial stuff?

[lancer425]

3 hours ago, Salopian said:

So , just hang on a minute .

If we have to make all these concessions and alterations to what we shoot how does thart fit into the acceptable , replaceable , economic alternative scenario?????

This whole debacle is a disgrace , the Trade have had more than twenty years to come up with a suitable alternative to Lead shot and have made  very little  progress , now they have to pull their finger out and come up with something in less than five years . 

STEEL SHOT IS NOT A VIABLE ALTERNATIVE TO LEAD  Never has been and never will be .

If you want a direct comparison of lead v steel , you are correct. But Once you start looking at the pattern densities and velocities the fact steel has lighter loads and more pellet counts be it at lower ftlbs. and its hardness and creating pressure the way it does and start using the more progressive powders developed for steel shot. Things do not look so far away , and certainly in use as mentioned by the poster above steel is right there with regard performance to lead.

But if you load steel with A0 in a 32 gram load of 6s at 1150fps and then a AO powdered load of 32 gram of lead 6s. at 1150fps. The lead will be a more efficient load all things being equal.

But if you start adjusting the steel load to make the most of its pressure characteristics with a more progressive powder and its hardness helping with pressure . the difference gets closer, And with simply a change of pellet size steel starts to look there as close as need be in the field. Steel performs better than its mere specific gravity suggests it would.

[Guest cookoff013]

if you want cheap pigeon loads, try making your own 24 /25 gram #4 steel. there are a few wads out there. the powders for this should be vectan AS, csb5, reddot etc. 

tis is easily done. i dont thin there is 2.5" steel shot specs. i definitely know there isnt 2.5" HP cartridges.

steel shot is an alternative to lead, 99% of the time. 

for you older guns, get some reloading gear, reload lead substitutes, softies - niceshot, itx, bismuth. etc.

i`m not happy with this. but i`m smart enough to adapt. 

[lancer425]

3 minutes ago, cookoff013 said:

if you want cheap pigeon loads, try making your own 24 /25 gram #4 steel. there are a few wads out there. the powders for this should be vectan AS, csb5, reddot etc. 

tis is easily done. i dont thin there is 2.5" steel shot specs. i definitely know there isnt 2.5" HP cartridges.

steel shot is an alternative to lead, 99% of the time. 

for you older guns, get some reloading gear, reload lead substitutes, softies - niceshot, itx, bismuth. etc.

i`m not happy with this. but i`m smart enough to adapt. 

Thats the way to do it adapt and survive. 😀

[enfieldspares]

Does anyone here have direct experience of the old tin shot? Now and again you see slabs of it, cheap, at some of the auction houses.

[lancer425]

41 minutes ago, enfieldspares said:

Does anyone here have direct experience of the old tin shot? Now and again you see slabs of it, cheap, at some of the auction houses.

Yes tried it in factory ammo from hull cartridge game flight. it was using neodisk powder afaict. but they did a 1 1/8 oz  32 gram load with a slower velocity too. but the game flights were still slow, 1150/ 1200 at a guess, and tin  is even lighter than steel. it actually worked ok though. but had to be 30 yards not much more with the 12s. Reloaded you might have got it to go a bit better, but it was at the time "early 2000s" prohibitively expensive and was more or less the same price as bismuth and ITM at that time. ITM in the early days was more or less bismuth money ttin was the same.

Edited April 3, 2020 by lancer425

[Old farrier]

1 hour ago, lancer425 said:

If you want a direct comparison of lead v steel , you are correct. But Once you start looking at the pattern densities and velocities the fact steel has lighter loads and more pellet counts be it at lower ftlbs. and its hardness and creating pressure the way it does and start using the more progressive powders developed for steel shot. Things do not look so far away , and certainly in use as mentioned by the poster above steel is right there with regard performance to lead.

But if you load steel with A0 in a 32 gram load of 6s at 1150fps and then a AO powdered load of 32 gram of lead 6s. at 1150fps. The lead will be a more efficient load all things being equal.

But if you start adjusting the steel load to make the most of its pressure characteristics with a more progressive powder and its hardness helping with pressure . the difference gets closer, And with simply a change of pellet size steel starts to look there as close as need be in the field. Steel performs better than its mere specific gravity suggests it would.

Have you done any of this with a biodegradable wad ? 
agree it’s achievable with a plastic wad but it’s the non lead and fibre combination that is the headache at the moment 

and it’s hard to field test at the moment 

[enfieldspares]

Thanks for the input. In truth most of what game I shoot isn't much more than twenty five yards or so. And pigeon I'd hope my decoying skills are such that I'm taking twenty yards shots at most. 

1 hour ago, lancer425 said:

Yes tried it in factory ammo from hull cartridge game flight. 

 

[lancer425]

1 hour ago, Old farrier said:

Have you done any of this with a biodegradable wad ? 
agree it’s achievable with a plastic wad but it’s the non lead and fibre combination that is the headache at the moment 

and it’s hard to field test at the moment 

Just before the lock down i tested five 1750 fps 7/8 oz reloads loaded with Early A 381. These were The foil tray card cup onto nitro 12 and 16ga nitro and with a soft felt op on top of normal op card . The cups survive fine and the felt wads seemed ok never found a direct op card so far. The wrapper cups are fine, but i will use the coke can wrap idea next to be extra safe and i need to try inverted card seal, but loa\ds i tested with plastic gas seals on powder folowed by the card cup set up were blowing lips off or splitting on the fast loads despite pressures in the 9500psi area.

You see this with some plaswads sam 1s in ten can rip off the seal section on some loads. i think i like the floppy felt op with a card underneath direct on powdwer best so far. its easy quick and cheap, with just the glueing of nitros and cup being only downside i have noticed so far.

Did not pattern any as such but looked ok nothing out of the ordinary, in the test gun a true cylinder "hacksawed down fabarn euro 3". I rad a few 1600fps 1oz loads through a 1/2 and 3/4 choke 12 magsxs with no visible cup issues. i slit them two slits 3/4 way down with overlap obviously all the way but glued which did seem to part but with no visible scratching i could see . I guess it gives up in the choke .

[lancer425]

31 minutes ago, enfieldspares said:

Thanks for the input. In truth most of what game I shoot isn't much more than twenty five yards or so. And pigeon I'd hope my decoying skills are such that I'm taking twenty yards shots at most. 

 

As i say tin is not cheap, i would go steel over using tin myself. if you hunt woods / forestry use bismuth. if you drop your own lead your quids in. its not expensive now in its raw state, and will fall after all this lot nowIMHO.

[wigeon jim]

   20 hours ago,  wigeon jim said: 

I shoot 1 oz # 4 steel at pigeons (around 1480fps ) and I don't notice any difference to 1 oz lead loads, Jim.

Are these handloads, Jim, or commercial stuff?

 

Yes these are hand-loads,.  Jim.

[Guest cookoff013]

this data set is perfect start to making that decoy shell thats magic. 
iksopener gets all the credit for this. its his thread.

i did something similar but my load was toast..

now why is this important? and now?

first its economical. at 24 grams of steel shot is about 24kg of steel shot per 1000 shells. rock these with a #4 steel and be done with it. 

the powder charges are easily respectably efficient enough. normal steel shells launch with 30+ grains of powder, these have been tuned with less.

weighing of steel shot and powder isnt nessasary, just getting the right amount in the hull but not never exceeding what is published.in the past i have used the 114 mec lead bar for dropping 25grams of steel. easily done. infact i banged out all of my nontoxic stuff out of a press, and hoppers / bar / bushing. thats more than 100 an hour of premium shells. 

you will not be reloading 32g steel and expecting it cheap. powder is too expensive, use too much, 

have a go. please do. have a go and see

get stuff and reload, if you dont like it, sell the reloader and components. i buy shells, i`m not married to the reloader, its cost me hundreds of pounds in loads that i have tested. i never chased the £. with this reload, it is cheap. or as cheap as factory.

 

[Dave at kelton]

53 minutes ago, cookoff013 said:

this data set is perfect start to making that decoy shell thats magic. 
iksopener gets all the credit for this. its his thread.

i did something similar but my load was toast..

now why is this important? and now?

first its economical. at 24 grams of steel shot is about 24kg of steel shot per 1000 shells. rock these with a #4 steel and be done with it. 

the powder charges are easily respectably efficient enough. normal steel shells launch with 30+ grains of powder, these have been tuned with less.

weighing of steel shot and powder isnt nessasary, just getting the right amount in the hull but not never exceeding what is published.in the past i have used the 114 mec lead bar for dropping 25grams of steel. easily done. infact i banged out all of my nontoxic stuff out of a press, and hoppers / bar / bushing. thats more than 100 an hour of premium shells. 

you will not be reloading 32g steel and expecting it cheap. powder is too expensive, use too much, 

have a go. please do. have a go and see

get stuff and reload, if you dont like it, sell the reloader and components. i buy shells, i`m not married to the reloader, its cost me hundreds of pounds in loads that i have tested. i never chased the £. with this reload, it is cheap. or as cheap as factory.

 

I am just playing with inverted cup over the powder and CG cups for the steel. I can get about 24gms Steel 3.25 (3) in the cup. I would like to use a 2.5” case but powder is the issue. I know I cannot use Alliant Steel but also have Blue Dot, Red Dot, CSBO, GM3, AO, A1. Any suggestions or do I just have to go to 2.75 cases.

[Guest cookoff013]

you may be able to use a 2.75" crimp load with a 2.5" roll turn shell. but please investigate further.