Call me sceptical but !!!

[hodge911]

46 minutes ago, toontastic said:

On care home deaths, many other countries don't count deaths in care. They also don't count deaths of people who were already seriously ill. That is one of the reasons some countries have suspiciously low death rate

So its ok for the people in charge to disregard people that this terrible disease has killed just so "THE FIGURES" look good for them ...... for flip sake if the truth be known the uk has the 2nd highest death rate in Europe "as reported numerous times " . The powers to be have dealt commendable on SOME area's during the pandemic but lacking in many more .... the main area I.M.O the speed they dealt with the procurement of ppe for the nhs ..

[toontastic]

9 minutes ago, hodge911 said:

So its ok for the people in charge to disregard people that this terrible disease has killed just so "THE FIGURES" look good for them ...... for flip sake if the truth be known the uk has the 2nd highest death rate in Europe "as reported numerous times " . The powers to be have dealt commendable on SOME area's during the pandemic but lacking in many more .... the main area I.M.O the speed they dealt with the procurement of ppe for the nhs ..

Belgium has the worst death rate followed by Spain then Italy. So that makes us 4th. France 5th and Holland 6th also have higher rates than USA

Edited May 2, 2020 by toontastic

[toontastic]

3 minutes ago, hodge911 said:

So its ok for the people in charge to disregard people that this terrible disease has killed just so "THE FIGURES" look good for them ...... for flip sake if the truth be known the uk has the 2nd highest death rate in Europe "as reported numerous times " . The powers to be have dealt commendable on SOME area's during the pandemic but lacking in many more .... the main area I.M.O the speed they dealt with the procurement of ppe for the nhs ..

No body is saying it's ok but you must compare apples with apples.

How are we meant to compare our death rates against other countries if we use different measurements. 

Perhaps we should only count people who have no other serious illnesses as covid deaths, would that make you feel better if we got the figure down to less than 10,000

 

[hodge911]

As stated loads of times on news , tv programs covid specific programs if the uncounted deaths had been used not just people who died in hospital of the virus we would be 2nd .

Its well publicized that people who died out of hospital from covid like symptoms were not tested so therefore its a 50 / 50 chance if covid killed them or not but there's a good chance that a percentage (that we'll never know ) were victims .

It doesn't matter if they had underlying illnesses if it was covid that caused their accelerated passing they become a statistic of this terrible disease and as such should be counted...

Edited May 2, 2020 by hodge911

[old'un]

12 minutes ago, hodge911 said:

So its ok for the people in charge to disregard people that this terrible disease has killed just so "THE FIGURES" look good for them ...... for flip sake if the truth be known the uk has the 2nd highest death rate in Europe "as reported numerous times " . The powers to be have dealt commendable on SOME area's during the pandemic but lacking in many more .... the main area I.M.O the speed they dealt with the procurement of ppe for the nhs ..

So how long should procurement have taken? Should we have had a stock pile of such items?, looking after 67 million people is never going to-be a walk in the park and mistakes will happen, but it must be nice to-be perfect and get everything right first time.

[toontastic]

10 minutes ago, hodge911 said:

As stated loads of times on news , tv programs covid specific programs if the uncounted deaths had been used not just people who died in hospital of the virus we would be 2nd

Definitely wrong, we are way behind Italy and Spain who also only count hospital deaths. USA are about 7th or 8th

Edited May 2, 2020 by toontastic

[toontastic]

2 minutes ago, old'un said:

So how long should procurement have taken? Should we have had a stock pile of such items?, looking after 67 million people is never going to-be a walk in the park and mistakes will happen, but it must be nice to-be perfect and get everything right first time.

As I've previously pointed out In another post my partner orders PPE (including gloves which don't come in pairs). She is having to order over 20 times her usual amount. I would imagine that will likely be replicated in other establishments, that's one hell of a leap in demand. One that is going to be very hard to keep up with.

[hodge911]

14 minutes ago, old'un said:

27 minutes ago, hodge911 said:

So its ok for the people in charge to disregard people that this terrible disease has killed just so "THE FIGURES" look good for them ...... for flip sake if the truth be known the uk has the 2nd highest death rate in Europe "as reported numerous times " . The powers to be have dealt commendable on SOME area's during the pandemic but lacking in many more .... the main area I.M.O the speed they dealt with the procurement of ppe for the nhs ..

So how long should procurement have taken? Should we have had a

Actually there was a tv documentary on last week confirming that "I think " 4-5 yrs ago the government had a meeting about just that .... yes it was a different government but surely governments should pass on important findings from 1 to another .

Unfortunately I can't remember the exact name of the program but its findings were well reported on both bbc & itv morning programs .

Good morning britain had an interview with a gov't minister that was in the "meeting " and she could not an answer on why the findings of the "said meeting" were not acted on 

Edited May 2, 2020 by hodge911

[toontastic]

18 minutes ago, hodge911 said:

 

It doesn't matter if they had underlying illnesses if it was covid that caused their accelerated passing they become a statistic of this terrible disease and as such should be counted...

Perhaps you should complain to the counties who don't count them in their figures, instead of whinging about our GREAT COUNTRY who do.

3 minutes ago, hodge911 said:

Actually there was a tv documentary on last week confirming that "I think " 4-5 yrs ago the government had a meeting about just that .... yes it was a different government but surely governments should pass on important findings from 1 to another .

Unfortunately I can't remember the exact name of the program but its findings were well reported on both bbc & itv morning programs

And there was also a report that if they held loads of PPE in reserve it would likely perish before use.

Edited May 2, 2020 by toontastic

[Mice!]

Did anyone see Johannesburg on the telly last night, if you want to see how bad things could be take a look.

I would imagine our figures are pretty accurate,  as for other countries who really knows, I doubt poorer countries will be wasting money and time testing people who have died, they will have their hands full looking after the living.

 

[WalkedUp]

Johannesburg was pretty bad before CV19  to be fair, not a realistic comparison. I have spent a lot of time with my family who live there - probably the worst city I’ve ever been to. 

[toontastic]

I watched a programme about Brazil and they are pre-digging thousands of graves outside Sao Paolo (hope I've spelt it correct).

[hodge911]

15 minutes ago, toontastic said:

Perhaps you should complain to the counties who don't count them in their figures, instead of whinging about our GREAT COUNTRY who do.

Perhaps you should take notice of reported facts that they weren't counted until recently

This to & frow can go on for ever . Its human nature to disagree and interpratate things differently you have your opinion and I mine 

[panoma1]

1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said:

The government have done a great job in getting the number of tests over the 100k mar, even if the numbers may have been massaged a little, but there's no branch of mathematics or statistics that supports the rate of growth of tests being anywhere near exponential. Good steady upward trend, yes.

Unrelated but the one thing that gets my goat at the moment is the retort that things would be worse if Labour were in, whilst it's undeniably true, it's not relevant because they aren't 🙄

Being better than the other lot, who would be worse, does not make you good.

Since the start of last month when a few thousand tests were carried out to a claimed hundred thousand yesterday....is that is not an exponential increase, as its many times the reported initial figure?

 

58 minutes ago, hodge911 said:

You dont see many 1 handed Drs /surgeons its all in the way the government manipulates the information it gives the public . Its on news now they counted tests that were "sent out but not received back " so how the heck can they count them when there's the possibility of a percentage not being sent back , getting damaged in transit & so on .

 

It’s just a manipulated truth!

 

[WalkedUp]

I don’t understand the competitive comparison to other nation’s mortality rates. Frankly I have come to find it a little disgusting when I hear politicians and commentators refer to it. 
 

If five members of my family had died I would not be saying “oh well, the Jones’s have lost 6 so all is well”. 

[toontastic]

2 minutes ago, hodge911 said:

Perhaps you should take notice of reported facts that they weren't counted until recently

 

I'm not referring to care home deaths. I'm referring to the fact that we counted deaths in hospital where they had underlying issues, where as some other countries only counted deaths where there was no other issues. Using 2 different ways to measure deaths, how can you tell which country has the right approach to doing things.

[toontastic]

2 minutes ago, WalkedUp said:

I don’t understand the competitive comparison to other nation’s mortality rates. Frankly I have come to find it a little disgusting when I hear politicians and commentators refer to it. 
 

If five members of my family had died I would not be saying “oh well, the Jones’s have lost 6 so all is well”. 

I don't see it as a competition, I see it as a way to work out who is doing things a better way. That's why I think there should be a standardised way of accounting. It's no good looking at country A who have say 5000 deaths and thinking hey we've got 10000 deaths let's do things their way. Only to have your death rate shoot up, then having country A saying oh we don't count all deaths only some of them.

[old'un]

12 hours ago, Norfolk wildfowler said:

But 2 months too late. we all or should have known what was coming why did not the  Government act while there was time to reduce the impact of

 this virus. If I had to guess , they did not want to spend the money. Well this is going to cost them and us a hell of a lot more. Incompetent is only part of the hash Boris has made.

Because of the speed this virus spreads I doubt very much that we could have stopped this virus even if we had started a lockdown on the 31 Dec, we may of slowed it a little if government put the UK into total lockdown and isolation from the rest of the world on the 31 Dec, but researchers believe the pandemic kicked off months before the first reported case in China, it is inevitable that this virus will spread world wide and claim many more lives, all the PPE in the world will not stop this virus, the only thing that will stop it is a vaccine.

[Raja Clavata]

57 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

I think for the reasons for this comment - you need to wind back 6 months or so when we were looking at a December election. 

There was from the opinion polls a distinct possibility of a hung parliament - in which whoever could form a coalition would take power.  With allies who were both broadly left (SNP, various 'Change UK' and derivatives, most LibDems), - the Labour Party were more likely to get a Labour led coalition.   That very much worried many people including me - not least because the Labour leadership were very far left of any previous Labour Government - and some had demonstrated very questionable competence.

In the event, the Tories won with a large majority. 

Hello John - I get that and whilst I couldn't bring myself to vote Tory last time, I would have done if I thought Labour were close, in the event I didn't vote - I live in a long established Tory stronghold by the way. But was six months ago, a long in politics.

59 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

However since then many (not talking this forum, but country wide) have been continuously looking for all possible 'slip ups', mistakes, etc., many shown by hindsight made by the Johnson administration.  There was a BBC Panorama relating to Covid and especially shortfalls in the supply of PPE which included a series of interviews - all critical of the government - from several 'medical professionals'.  It was highly critical and on subsequent investigations - it seems that ALL of the interviewees had strong labour/trades union/left connections - one even having stood as  a Labour candidate in various forms.  The political backgrounds of the interviewees was not mentioned, but it seems the BBC was far off its duty to be impartial.  I appreciate this is the Mail, so not exactly impartial itself, but https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8270999/How-Panorama-infiltrated-Left-BBC-interviewed-five-medics-Labour-links-PPE.html

Politics aside, the government are always a fair cop, and thankfully so (given the lack of a credible opposition somebody / thing needs to be trying to hold them to account). There will always be some who throw rocks at the government regardless of the politics. It's easy to see through when the rocks are thrown by people standing behind a left hand agenda. The problem is now that everything is made political we are forced to pretty much stand behind and support the side we are on, regardless, and it all becomes blinding.

1 hour ago, JohnfromUK said:

This is why the 'politics' isn't really irrelevant and in me anyway (though I don't think I've expressed it in these forums) this does invoke a feeling of 'thank goodness Labour didn't take power'.  Both the BBC and the medical profession are seen by much of the public as having left leanings at present - and when they get together .....

For the record, I think that the present government are doing pretty well overall, and as always hindsight says they could have done better.  However - things (by whoever was in power) could also have been very much worse.

I think this is where we differ, to an extent. I too had that "thank goodness feeling" at the start of all this too but surely we should park that and move forward. Hence my point about being better than rubbish does not make you good.

I agree the government have done well too but the defence against criticism where things have not gone well should not be trying to spin everything positively - surely that's no better than the imbeciles constantly throwing rocks? I personally think it's too early to talk about hindsight, we are facing a multi-factorial issue so we need to get to a stable / known point before we look back retrospectively. I'd hope you agree with most of that.

[toontastic]

12 hours ago, Norfolk wildfowler said:

But 2 months too late. we all or should have known what was coming why did not the  Government act while there was time to reduce the impact of

 this virus. If I had to guess , they did not want to spend the money. Well this is going to cost them and us a hell of a lot more. Incompetent is only part of the hash Boris has made.

Do you honestly think the public would have accepted a lockdown 2 months earlier than it actually occurred.

Think back to the end of January and to most people covid was a bit of a joke.

Even when we finally had a lockdown lots of people still treated it as a joke, 250 parties in Manchester on one Saturday night even in my local area there were reports of police attending over 100 parties  

[Raja Clavata]

15 minutes ago, panoma1 said:

Since the start of last month when a few thousand tests were carried out to a claimed hundred thousand yesterday....is that is not an exponential increase, as its many times the reported initial figure?

No, it's not. I was plotting the number of daily tests through part of last month but stopped (just too damn busy at work) - the trend was a more or less straight rather than steeply rising curve. It may have risen steeply over the last few days but I'm not going to comment on that 😉 

Key thing it has been steadily rising, and it needs to if we are gonna get out of the current situation effectively 👍 

[Harnser]

15 hours ago, JDog said:

Cynical in the extreme.

How about some praise for all of the efforts that have been made?

+1 . I am very happy with the way the government has handled the situation . Shame on those who have not followed the government’s advice .

harnser

[panoma1]

2 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

No, it's not. I was plotting the number of daily tests through part of last month but stopped (just too damn busy at work) - the trend was a more or less straight rather than steeply rising curve. It may have risen steeply over the last few days but I'm not going to comment on that 😉 

Key thing it has been steadily rising, and it needs to if we are gonna get out of the current situation effectively 👍 

So the rise over the last few day was exponential then! 😃

[Raja Clavata]

26 minutes ago, WalkedUp said:

I don’t understand the competitive comparison to other nation’s mortality rates. Frankly I have come to find it a little disgusting when I hear politicians and commentators refer to it. 
 

100%  - It's apples to orange comparisons, actually worse than that - more like comparing an apple to an unidentified object. If the UK as a whole is recording then same way then the only cross nation comparison we have in credible terms is between England, Wales, Scotland & NI. 

Just now, panoma1 said:

So the rise over the last few day was exponential then! 😃

I haven't looked, lol, i suspect increased steeply perhaps and I'd even go as far as suggesting more exponential like than before - will you take that? I would if I were you 😛 

[clangerman]

2 minutes ago, Harnser said:

+1 . I am very happy with the way the government has handled the situation . Shame on those who have not followed the government’s advice .

harnser

how could anyone be happy with the lack of ppe or the mad rush to build ventilators not up to spec to say nothing of the daily rise in the death toll if that’s doing a good job we are in serious serious trouble