Hidden agenda?

[Westley]

1 minute ago, lancer425 said:

Sad but true.

On BOTH fronts  !

[mudpatten]

Some random points.

The Shooting Times office is now on an industrial estate in Farnborough.No "London" perks there anymore.

I rather like the Shooting Times. Patrick Galbraith has been brave enough to explore some of the more vexatious issues confronting the sport.

In an earlier post it was stated that Swedish shooters, who are often quoted as being happy to use steel at home, when visiting the UK used lead cartridges. It is just possible that the reason might be that Sweden is not a member of the CIP and it`s domestically produced steel cartridges, not being hamstrung by CIP regs. are generally faster than UK produced steel ammunition and are not normally available in the UK.

For our team of Swedish guns to use the effective steel they are otherwise, allegedly, happy with, would mean importing a significant quantity of ammunition which would have added greatly to the cost and complexity of the trip. Just a thought.

 

[fallowbuck]

23 hours ago, andrewluke said:

 you mention "heavier than lead ammunition" ,this wont be steel!,steel will never out perform lead

I agree Lead has been used for centuries in all firearms and folk much cleverer than us ,have never seen the need to change.The antis keep

spouting that lead is killing droves  of wildfowl by ingestion.Where is the defacto scientific proof of that??🧐🤔

[steve s×s]

On 29/05/2020 at 20:24, PPP said:

That's the first thing he's got right so far..  I agree, it feels like all of these publications or associations are trying to squeeze the last drops out of us before they move onto some other mob .. fishing beware?

The fishing mags are pathetic 🤪

[lancer425]

11 hours ago, fallowbuck said:

I agree Lead has been used for centuries in all firearms and folk much cleverer than us ,have never seen the need to change.The antis keep

spouting that lead is killing droves  of wildfowl by ingestion.Where is the defacto scientific proof of that??🧐🤔

 

11 hours ago, fallowbuck said:

I agree Lead has been used for centuries in all firearms and folk much cleverer than us ,have never seen the need to change.The antis keep

spouting that lead is killing droves  of wildfowl by ingestion.Where is the defacto scientific proof of that??🧐🤔

Firstly i apologise to the OP. I did try hard not turn this thread into a steel shot Vs Lead shot debate. But the Quoted post above  leaves me with no alternative.

I did ask andrewluke to start his own thread, but No he went on to push for answers he should if he actually shoots know only too well.

So Fallowbuck. !

 Lead IS TGOXIC No evidence required its gone in paint fishing and waterfowling in most parts of the world, certain USA states and some countries have no Lead dove hunting and Non lead is filtering into many aspects of shooting the world over. We have nothing different here to any other country so why should we get to carry on using lead when the whole world is on to non lead  already or going non lead . 

The fact it has been used for centuries means absolutely nothing in the bigger scheme of things. The Ingestion of lead shot killing fowl is a well known well debated , hundreds if not thousands of threads on forums worldwide have drawn the same conclusion , Lead is toxic it can and has killed waterfowl. 

I am amassed this topic is still discussed, Its died down in the states but here its rife. Why is that? 

Lead is toxic its been banned in shooting waterfowl in our country over 20 years now. steel is a known quantity and just one of many alternatives to lead available.  If it comes to pass that Lead is banned inland in Scotland for Geese or for Game throughout the uk is yet to be seen. we have had suggestions from At least some of our shooting orgs to Voluntary move away from lead and plastics in wadding.  This as been greeted positively by some and not by others. Time will reveal the outcome of this.

  @andrewluke

29/05/2020 at 21:49, andrewluke said:

 you mention "heavier than lead ammunition" ,this wont be steel!,steel will never out perform lead.

OUT PERFORM ? What do you mean by that exactly. Steel will never be as dense as lead. but lead will never be as light as Steel or have as many pellets in a comparable weight of same sized shot . So we first need to Know what you mean By OUT PERFORM ?.

Steel works and works well. here is Dave carie Using it . and it seems to work. many of us find this . Would he have put more in the bag with lead ?

 And so @andrewluke What do you mean by OUR PERFORM?.

 

[wymberley]

51 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

 

Firstly i apologise to the OP. I did try hard not turn this thread into a steel shot Vs Lead shot debate. But the Quoted post above  leaves me with no alternative.

I did ask andrewluke to start his own thread, but No he went on to push for answers he should if he actually shoots know only too well.

So Fallowbuck. !

 Lead IS TGOXIC No evidence required its gone in paint fishing and waterfowling in most parts of the world, certain USA states and some countries have no Lead dove hunting and Non lead is filtering into many aspects of shooting the world over. We have nothing different here to any other country so why should we get to carry on using lead when the whole world is on to non lead  already or going non lead . 

The fact it has been used for centuries means absolutely nothing in the bigger scheme of things. The Ingestion of lead shot killing fowl is a well known well debated , hundreds if not thousands of threads on forums worldwide have drawn the same conclusion , Lead is toxic it can and has killed waterfowl. 

I am amassed this topic is still discussed, Its died down in the states but here its rife. Why is that? 

Lead is toxic its been banned in shooting waterfowl in our country over 20 years now. steel is a known quantity and just one of many alternatives to lead available.  If it comes to pass that Lead is banned inland in Scotland for Geese or for Game throughout the uk is yet to be seen. we have had suggestions from At least some of our shooting orgs to Voluntary move away from lead and plastics in wadding.  This as been greeted positively by some and not by others. Time will reveal the outcome of this.

  @andrewluke

 you mention "heavier than lead ammunition" ,this wont be steel!,steel will never out perform lead.

OUT PERFORM ? What do you mean by that exactly. Steel will never be as dense as lead. but lead will never be as light as Steel or have as many pellets in a comparable weight of same sized shot . So we first need to Know what you mean By OUT PERFORM ?.

Steel works and works well. here is Dave carie Using it . and it seems to work. many of us find this . Would he have put more in the bag with lead ?

 And so @andrewluke What do you mean by OUR PERFORM?.

 

There is always an alternative and one which should be the easiest as it requires no physical effort what-so-ever. Unfortunately the human psyche can be such that this option is actually very difficult to adopt and as such this gives the answer to your question.

[fallowbuck]

Interesting article from America https://documentcloud.adobe.com/link/review?uri=urn:aaid:scds:US:4f104bce-53e1-4e08-93d1-15fefc4c4aa1

[clangerman]

the debate won’t die down because some have to hammer on non stop it’s a FREE choice for now until that changes make your OWN mind up 

[lancer425]

1 minute ago, clangerman said:

the debate won’t die down because some have to hammer on non stop it’s a FREE choice for now until that changes make your OWN mind up 

Why is it dead in america and other countries. Steel was regected wholesale when i was in NEW ZEALAND they were Not for it at all in 2007. But less than two seasons they took to it no problem. Here it never even slowed down until at least 20010 . So relitively the kiwis took about two years we are still smarting 20 years latter. WHY? Why the UK. What is it about our nation. i think its acctualy quite simple. AGE> We have a massive Number of OLD SHOOTERS HERE!

Think about this. If we do not count the few who use Lead on fowl inland in Scotland. And we Use the AGE 15 as a start point for fowling. "OK some younger but some older" The start at 15 would mean no shooters under 35 will have ever shot fowl with lead in the UK  "Legally" The states has many more younger shooters, same with new Zealand. UK Shooters are Old many set in their ways and will not change because They dont like to be told what to do in the post above this. "says it all really"

 

[clangerman]

2 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

Why is it dead in america and other countries. Steel was regected wholesale when i was in NEW ZEALAND they were Not for it at all in 2007. But less than two seasons they took to it no problem. Here it never even slowed down until at least 20010 . So relitively the kiwis took about two years we are still smarting 20 years latter. WHY? Why the UK. What is it about our nation. i think its acctualy quite simple. AGE> We have a massive Number of OLD SHOOTERS HERE!

Think about this. If we do not count the few who use Lead on fowl inland in Scotland. And we Use the AGE 15 as a start point for fowling. "OK some younger but some older" The start at 15 would mean no shooters under 35 will have ever shot fowl with lead in the UK  "Legally" The states has many more younger shooters, same with new Zealand. UK Shooters are Old many set in their ways and will not change because They dont like to be told what to do in the post above this. "says it all really"

 

as a OLD shooter i don’t need anyone harping on non stop trying to dictate with long speeches i should use steel and i’m sure other OLD shooters don’t either 

[fallowbuck]

I’m not old , I’m WISE 🦉. Everyone should have a voice in any debate!👏

[wymberley]

14 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

Why is it dead in america and other countries. Steel was regected wholesale when i was in NEW ZEALAND they were Not for it at all in 2007. But less than two seasons they took to it no problem. Here it never even slowed down until at least 20010 . So relitively the kiwis took about two years we are still smarting 20 years latter. WHY? Why the UK. What is it about our nation. i think its acctualy quite simple. AGE> We have a massive Number of OLD SHOOTERS HERE!

Think about this. If we do not count the few who use Lead on fowl inland in Scotland. And we Use the AGE 15 as a start point for fowling. "OK some younger but some older" The start at 15 would mean no shooters under 35 will have ever shot fowl with lead in the UK  "Legally" The states has many more younger shooters, same with new Zealand. UK Shooters are Old many set in their ways and will not change because They dont like to be told what to do in the post above this. "says it all really"

 

A very good question.

Around the world old age is respected and revered for the knowledge gained; just not so with some in the UK.

[lancer425]

4 minutes ago, fallowbuck said:

I’m not old , I’m WISE 🦉. Everyone should have a voice in any debate!👏

Who could disagree, but this debate is as relative as a debate on the pending removal of troops from dinkirk. its over  years ago .

[fallowbuck]

My Dad provided the air cover there!

[London Best]

This will be my 60th season. I have used non toxic on wildfowl for 22 years because I’ve HAD TO.        I will use lead until I no longer can, by law.

[lancer425]

2 minutes ago, wymberley said:

A very good question.

Around the world old age is respected and revered for the knowledge gained; just not so with some in the UK.

 

1 minute ago, fallowbuck said:

My Dad provided the air cover there!

He was providing air cover for my dad then . Glad he did. You can blame your dad for this debate, Otherwise it might have been one sided. but i tend to think its LEAD SIDED anyway.

[lancer425]

3 minutes ago, London Best said:

This will be my 60th season. I have used non toxic on wildfowl for 22 years because I’ve HAD TO.        I will use lead until I no longer can, by law.

I did not Voluntary go to steel , i waited until it came in for wildfowling. But i have learned a lot since then.

 Two questions for you.

Will you buy in any Lead from now on or simply use up what you have now.?

Why do you chose not to Follow the guidance suggested by Some shooting orgs here?

[London Best]

@lancer425

I have stocked up on my normal game cartridges for next season already. I do not tend to buy more than I need for the coming season.

What guidance?  As I understand it, a gradual 5 year phase out has been ‘suggested’. When (IF) I have to stop shooting lead because that has become the law, then I will comply. Until then I have a choice and am perfectly capable of making up my own mind. 

[clangerman]

thinking further the debate is part of this because the clowns i pay to protect our sport have a hidden agenda their self or they would not be giving out sticks to beat us with by doing a u turn on lead 

[lancer425]

35 minutes ago, London Best said:

@lancer425

I have stocked up on my normal game cartridges for next season already. I do not tend to buy more than I need for the coming season.

What guidance?  As I understand it, a gradual 5 year phase out has been ‘suggested’. When (IF) I have to stop shooting lead because that has become the law, then I will comply. Until then I have a choice and am perfectly capable of making up my own mind. 

The guidance sugested / sugested guidance . As sugested BY. Its not law cary on as you can. just interested to know  WHY. you can so . Now we know.

I can not see me buying any more lead not in 12 anyway.  I Use steel for pigeons "Hawk Feed" and I am geared up for steel in wildfowling powders i have and plenty of shot. I only have a few kilo of big lead and thats dwindling now. I think i am done with lead.

Its not the shot at all thats a problem for me, its wads. But as you chose to shoot lead i think i will have to use plaswads because i have lots and although i am sure allternatives will be available in a relatively short time, its not going to happen before this season. i am loaded 10 12s and 20s in several different shot types for the season. I will just start working on Amended loads as wads become available. I have some card cups for 10ga i might play with, just had some given last week just 25 but will do for a dabble, but think, it best not to put too much time and money into this yet. because as wads become available it will be money /time wasted as such.

I do not see a problem with steel. short term its not ideal but from a wad point of view not a baLISTICS ONE.

[fallowbuck]

To. be fair Wildfowlers have complied with Steel only ammunition  simply because they want to keep within the law and possibly not lose their SGC also!Dyed in the wool Wildfowlers  know that at greater, still lethal kill distances ,Lead  is superior to  Steel as with high Pheasants.You get more cripples and birds carrying steel shot than when using lead .Probably the next anti based argument to stop shooting!😕

[London Best]

My problem is I do not possess a modern gun and do not want one. All my driven game is shot with a 90 year old Holland Royal with 2 1/2 inch chambers. Likewise, my 20 bore is English with 2 1/2 chambers and so are both my fourtens. I do have two Spanish guns that have 2 3/4 chambers and those are what I have to use to shoot steel for duck/geese. If I have to shoot duck with the English guns I use. Bismuth. Until the day comes when I can buy 2 1/2 inch rated steel loads, this is what I shall continue to do. Other game will get lead until it is taken from me.

[fallowbuck]

I love the old English guns so well

made and such character !Mind the  AYA sidelocks are a good deal!

[London Best]

9 minutes ago, fallowbuck said:

I love the old English guns so well

made and such character !Mind the  AYA sidelocks are a good deal!

For me there would be no pleasure in shooting game with a machine made O/U.

In fact, I’m not sure it should be allowed!

[fallowbuck]

I’ve done a lot of big shoots working my dogs and it is changing,  see more OUs all the time.Ive seen them out performed by good S/S shots many times though.