Wild Injustice

[steve s×s]

I wish I had a brain 🤪 so what about offspring and juveniles from following year, it's a survey for plebs, just MHO and I hope plenty of others

[Fellside]

I think we have to straighten something out here. You have to understand the history of post 2nd war ‘agricultural intensification’ to realise that farmers were systematically driven towards the current production model. They didn’t chose it. It chose them!

Ag’ intensification was adopted / ratified by successive UK governments during the 60s and 70s. It was driven by policy and incentives - inspired by Canadian and Australian methods where big yields were being realised.  Farmers had little choice but to comply / scale up - or fade away. 
This resulted in the largely remaining intensive production we have today. Nearly all wildlife declines - particularly farmland bird ‘indicator species’ have occurred in parallel. Farmer bashing is pointless - as nearly all farm production (there are a small few exceptions) is still driven by policy and the 65 million people we have to feed on this island. 
 

I hope this puts things in context. 
 

By the way DDT did have a major impact on certain raptor species. However if we are being honest, the ‘old fashioned’ game keeping methods also had an impact, although very difficult to quantify. Thankfully there is now a much broader acceptance of raptors throughout shooting and farming than there ever used to be. As a keen shooting man, I find this very heartening and it is has to be part of our shared future. 
 

[Scully]

16 minutes ago, Fellside said:

I think we have to straighten something out here. You have to understand the history of post 2nd war ‘agricultural intensification’ to realise that farmers were systematically driven towards the current production model. They didn’t chose it. It chose them!

Ag’ intensification was adopted / ratified by successive UK governments during the 60s and 70s. It was driven by policy and incentives - inspired by Canadian and Australian methods where big yields were being realised.  Farmers had little choice but to comply / scale up - or fade away. 
This resulted in the largely remaining intensive production we have today. Nearly all wildlife declines - particularly farmland bird ‘indicator species’ have occurred in parallel. Farmer bashing is pointless - as nearly all farm production (there are a small few exceptions) is still driven by policy and the 65 million people we have to feed on this island. 
 

I hope this puts things in context. 
 

By the way DDT did have a major impact on certain raptor species. However if we are being honest, the ‘old fashioned’ game keeping methods also had an impact, although very difficult to quantify. Thankfully there is now a much broader acceptance of raptors throughout shooting and farming than there ever used to be. As a keen shooting man, I find this very heartening and it is has to be part of our shared future. 
 

Good post. There are many wealthy farmers in this area who gained that wealth during war years and for many years following its end. 

[Fellside]

What is not so well known - is the high numbers of tragic farm bankruptcies which occurred post war, mostly resulting from a failure to embrace the new intensive model. 

[McSpredder]

1 hour ago, Fellside said:

You have to understand the history of post 2nd war ‘agricultural intensification’ to realise that farmers were systematically driven towards the current production model.

49 minutes ago, Scully said:

Good post. There are many wealthy farmers in this area who gained that wealth during war years and for many years following its end. 

You are both absolutely right.   The post-WW2 situation followed on from compulsory intensification during wartime, when farmers were given no choice -- those who didn't want to plough up and convert traditional grassland for arable cropping had their land confiscated.   Government policy was probably correct during the hostilities (although it was sometimes applied to inappropriate pieces of land).   Post-war policy might sometimes have been misguided, but it would unfair to blame farmers for that.   Agricultural subsidies have allowed some farmers have become wealthy, just as government health spending policy has made it possible for many GPs to live quite well from working a 3-day week.   All this was driven by politicians, not by individual business.

[scotslad]

15 hours ago, Stonepark said:

 

of the 16 native raptors the Osprey, Sea Eagle, Honey Buzzard, Goshawk and Monetgeaus Harrier were all lost before WW1, 40 years before the introduction of DDT, similarly other raptors suffered large population declines over the same period.

Whilst DDT did affect all raptors to a limited extent, the primary effect was on Peregrine's and Sparrowhawk's as they both eat large amounts of farmland birds who were themselves consuming the contaminated crops.

I did not specifically blame keepers, that was you putting words in my mouth

, I have made it clear in other posts that farmers through changing habitat and removing threats have played as much, if not a greater role in raptor decline as keepers.

Whilst a lot of the prey species have suffered serious declines in percentage terms (mainly linked to modern farming reducing habitat and being more efficient) they still outnumber raptors considerably by orders of magnitude.

 

On the list of most common UK birds, Magpies are 610,000 pairs so about no 30

 

Top ten most common birds in UK are :

Wren 11m pairs

Robin 7.35m

House Sparrow 5.3m

Woodpigeon 5.15m

Blackbird 5.05.

Chaffinch 5.05m

MeadowPippit 2.45m

Starling  1.75m

Goldfinch 1.65m

Skylark 1.55m

 

Raptors Populations are

 

Osprey 240 pairs

Sea eagle 123

Golden Eagle 510

Monetgeaus Harrier 8

Hen Harrier 545

Marsh Harrier 695

Merlin 1150

Hobby 2,050

Peregrine 1,750

Goshawk  620

Sparrowhawk 30,500

Kestrel 31,000

Rough legged buzzard  15

Honey buzzard 69

Red Kite 4,400

Buzzard 87,500

I hope the above had gone some way to straightening you out.

 

 

 

Good reply stonepark.

 

I'll try to answer a bit fuller later when I have time to Lok up some info.

It's all very well saying a species has X million population but wot was it 10, 20 or 30 years ago.

If u look at % trends many off the 1s on rise are wot I class as vermin/pests

 

Another thing that has been mentioned in this thread is agriculture and intensification.

Personally I think that is more BS pedalled by those who want to blame everything on the nasty farmers or keepers and not looking any deeper into things.

I can only speak as I have found and see things, and I'm sure things will be vastly different in other parts of the country.

But local to me agri intensification has been really minimal and most happened in 50s to 70s when most bird numbers still holding there own.

 

Locally to me ( either river valley or district) there really has been very little agri intensification since the 80s, yes things have changed mainly heavier stocking rates and move from hay to silage and muck to slurry

But no hedge rows have been ripped up, no ponds drained.

I could still go to every rabbit burrow I ferreted as a kid 30+ years ago and the hedge row would still be there.

Plus when u get above say 200m possibly even lower ( which will be a massive % of rural UK esp Scot and northern eng) ur really into LFA ground, basically poor grazing for hairy hill cattle and sheep.

Apart from intro of quad bikes absolutely nothing will have changed for decades, yet waders numbers still in decline.

Why??? U can't blame that on nasty farmers and intensification.

As the GWCT study at Otterburn clearly showed without legal pest control wader numbers were unsustainable and slowly becoming locally extinct.

With pest control breeding success went up 300% which has been shown elsewhere too on fenced RSP b reserves.

Very few pewitts, whaups or oyster catchers left near me now, yet go 30 miles away to similar crappy sheep grazing and fields are alive with them, only difference is some decent keepers and near a bride area.

It's not a coincidence.

 

I may come across as harsh and anti predator but just can't understand the protection system in this country no matter how common a once rare thing becomes.

Look at badgers, folk are spending thousands and thousands on the latest NV and thermal gear to shoot every last fox of a farm but are leaving 20 or 30 badgers behind.

Where's the logic there?? 

They all have to eat but to label 1 as #1 pest and label another more numerous as protected forever even thou they pretty much have same diet is bonkers.

[scotslad]

Just to add, have been working my way throu the latest SGA mag and 1 semi relevant thing sprung to mind and I know Alister Mitchel who writes in ST has also wrote about it numerous times. Been a long time since bought the ST

The breeding success rate of HH on grouse moors to elsewhere as well as abondonment rates.

 

That's official nest monitors, how many nests are abondoned by over eager nest monitors or photographers???

 

1 case they mention 14 HH nests failed on an island, next year all produced chicks.

Wot was the difference? 2nd year nest monitor was injured and not fit to monitor nests ( don't get me wrong weather etc might also have played its role too) but that is one hell off a conincedence.

 

The greens in Scotland just managed to sneak a bill throu holyrood during lockdown where nest disturbance penalties have been raised to 5 year jail terms.

Now official monitors and photographers can get a licence to monitor a specific nest/s on ur land and come onto it without ever noticing the landowner.

If that was applied vicariously to landowners u could be fined for a 3rd parties actions u never even knew was there

 

All I'm saying is don't believe everything.

Another bit in SGA mag related to mountain hares now becoming protected and how holyrood/greens have ignored all scientific advice to follow there political agenda.

But continue to hand out vast sums off public money to nature reserves and species protection projects even thou they fail miserably year after year and yet these idiots/conservationists are the 1s being listened too and setting legislation.

Most grouse moors are doing far better in terms off species protection and yet they're trying everything they can to ban them.

Just bonkers.

[NatureBoy]

There's an interesting recent post on C4PMC site social media of RSPB suppressing a multi org bird survey on  moors last year. Why?  1) Because it showed a significant increase in both BOP's and Moorland breeding birds. 2) They were after a  big chunk of money (£600,000+) from HLF for more "monitoring". 3) Not fit with there money making agenda. Long but worth a read.     NB

[Scully]

5 hours ago, NatureBoy said:

There's an interesting recent post on C4PMC site social media of RSPB suppressing a multi org bird survey on  moors last year. Why?  1) Because it showed a significant increase in both BOP's and Moorland breeding birds. 2) They were after a  big chunk of money (£600,000+) from HLF for more "monitoring". 3) Not fit with there money making agenda. Long but worth a read.     NB

It would be worth asking them; let us know how you get on.

If everything in their garden was rosy they wouldn’t receive funds; they need a bit of alarmist emotive propaganda to keep the coffers filled. I get the impression ( like you ) that they would rather things were always on the ‘ edge of extinction’ to keep interest alive.

Shooting being banned could be their worst nightmare. 🙂

[Fellside]

On 12/08/2020 at 23:36, scotslad said:

Another thing that has been mentioned in this thread is agriculture and intensification.

Personally I think that is more BS pedalled by those who want to blame everything on the nasty farmers or keepers and not looking any deeper into things.

It has been made clear in this thread that ag’ intensification has occurred via central policy drivers - and was never a farmer lead construct. In other words ag’ intensification was imposed upon farmers not initiated by them. 
The opposite to farmer bashing in fact. No one could be more pro farming than I am. 
 

And yes, the pace of change has slowed (or even been slightly reversed in some systems) over the last two decades - primarily due to European directives on ‘Agri-environment’ schemes. However we are still essentially operating an intensive legacy model. That’s just an evidence based fact of life - not an opinion. 

Again far from farmer bashing - just a recognition of the journey which farlmland Britain has endured. It helps us to understand where we are and why.

[Saltings]

On 12/08/2020 at 07:32, Stonepark said:

 

of the 16 native raptors the Osprey, Sea Eagle, Honey Buzzard, Goshawk and Monetgeaus Harrier were all lost before WW1, 40 years before the introduction of DDT, similarly other raptors suffered large population declines over the same period.

Whilst DDT did affect all raptors to a limited extent, the primary effect was on Peregrine's and Sparrowhawk's as they both eat large amounts of farmland birds who were themselves consuming the contaminated crops.

I did not specifically blame keepers, that was you putting words in my mouth

, I have made it clear in other posts that farmers through changing habitat and removing threats have played as much, if not a greater role in raptor decline as keepers.

Whilst a lot of the prey species have suffered serious declines in percentage terms (mainly linked to modern farming reducing habitat and being more efficient) they still outnumber raptors considerably by orders of magnitude.

 

On the list of most common UK birds, Magpies are 610,000 pairs so about no 30

 

Top ten most common birds in UK are :

Wren 11m pairs

Robin 7.35m

House Sparrow 5.3m

Woodpigeon 5.15m

Blackbird 5.05.

Chaffinch 5.05m

MeadowPippit 2.45m

Starling  1.75m

Goldfinch 1.65m

Skylark 1.55m

 

Raptors Populations are

 

Osprey 240 pairs

Sea eagle 123

Golden Eagle 510

Monetgeaus Harrier 8

Hen Harrier 545

Marsh Harrier 695

Merlin 1150

Hobby 2,050

Peregrine 1,750

Goshawk  620

Sparrowhawk 30,500

Kestrel 31,000

Rough legged buzzard  15

Honey buzzard 69

Red Kite 4,400

Buzzard 87,500

I hope the above had gone some way to straightening you out.

 

 

👍 good post i agree with this  as  i  dont believe everything the antis say      but i believe my eyes  songbirds are on a serious decline not to mention swallows or martins  nest robbers are 10 a penny  hook billed killers  are also ten a penny 

[JohnfromUK]

On 13/08/2020 at 10:00, NatureBoy said:

There's an interesting recent post on C4PMC site social media of RSPB suppressing a multi org bird survey on  moors last year. Why?  1) Because it showed a significant increase in both BOP's and Moorland breeding birds. 2) They were after a  big chunk of money (£600,000+) from HLF for more "monitoring". 3) Not fit with there money making agenda. Long but worth a read.     NB

A further interesting post today from C4PMC here https://www.c4pmc.co.uk/post/fieldsports-tv-investigation-reveals-dark-arts-being-used-by-rspb-to-persecute-gamekeepers?fbclid=IwAR0MLwT0Y4GR9bbdTiKSN-dEzwlVGW9Ad0ambkwC9E1re8fT3emiKiiMPOE

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Shocking!

[Scully]

Interesting stuff. Perhaps our shooting orgs should be pushing for charity enabled bodies to make obligatory that their findings and claims are open to public scrutiny? How does the saying go .....nothing to hide, nothing to fear. Just a thought. 

[NatureBoy]

17 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

A further interesting post today from C4PMC here https://www.c4pmc.co.uk/post/fieldsports-tv-investigation-reveals-dark-arts-being-used-by-rspb-to-persecute-gamekeepers?fbclid=IwAR0MLwT0Y4GR9bbdTiKSN-dEzwlVGW9Ad0ambkwC9E1re8fT3emiKiiMPOE

Yeah! Saw that earlier. Ant that what a lot of us have been saying and thinking for ages! Freezer fresh! To fresh! To convenient! Faked scenes/traps. Sketchy stories. As for the selective info from them about the tags. Always been to suit there negative anti agenda. Lets get it shared! . . . . They been dis'n the positive reports of Hen Harrier breeding success to.       NB

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, NatureBoy said:

Yeah! Saw that earlier. Ant that what a lot of us have been saying and thinking for ages!

Indeed.

It is being shared; I got it from FaceBook - where it had been linked to by someone with quite a large following in the gun trade (who is a friend of mine).

[NatureBoy]

1 minute ago, JohnfromUK said:

Indeed.

It is being shared; I got it from FaceBook - where it had been linked to by someone with quite a large following in the gun trade (who is a friend of mine).

Good! They, WJ been trying hard to discredit C4PMC for a while. Saying they using underhand tactics. Yeah right! Pot kettle black. Doesn't  matter who's behind them if they having a go at that lot.        NB

[greylag]

They will stop at nothing to spread the lies and incorrect facts.The press will  print any thing said by Packham truth or not they don't care.

Our organisations must get on the front foot and refute their claims.If accusations like theirs were made against other any trade there would be hell to pay.

Well done C4PMC.

[JohnfromUK]

The BBC have a new DG (Director General) who has made some statements along the lines of BBC 'personalities' not being allowed to post partisan views on social media etc.

This may impact on Packham  https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8695673/Countryside-Alliance-say-BBC-drop-outspoken-wildlife-presenter-Chris-Packham.html