English pointer

[picardy]

hi has anybody had any experience with training and working with the English pointer ,really are fascinated with these dogs and would love to work one in the near future 

[Lloyd90]

What do you want it to do? 
 

What do you want to work it on, and what ground and game do you have available? 
 

Lots of people these days are picking ‘different’ breeds to give them a go or try an be different. Whilst it’s nice to try different breeds just my personal view is that the vast majority of people would be better off sticking with the basic breeds such as a lab or a spaniel. 
 

Very few people have good access to game outside of going pigeon shooting, beating, picking up or Wildfowling, to get a lab or spaniel on plenty of game. 
 

Having access to the type of ground and game to run a pointer would be a lot harder, however if you’ve got it then they may be worth considering. There are HPR and pointer clubs.
 

It would be worth approaching a club and seeing if you are able to go along to see a trial or something to see them work. Speak to people who own them and see what they are good at and bad at. 
 

Don’t trust an owner who says how brilliant they are and have no faults. All the breeds have pros and cons, find someone who’s aware enough to admit it and discuss it openly. 
 

 

[scotslad]

Quite a few grouse keepers own them just for counting, very few shoot over them.

Really the only reason u'd own 1

A fairly hard running breed.

In FT UK lines don't pick up not sure if they can or not.

Some foreign lines do retrieve but possibly more due to training methods ( FF)

 

Be hard to find genuine working lines I'd imagine

[Lloyd90]

10 minutes ago, scotslad said:

Quite a few grouse keepers own them just for counting, very few shoot over them.

Really the only reason u'd own 1

A fairly hard running breed.

In FT UK lines don't pick up not sure if they can or not.

Some foreign lines do retrieve but possibly more due to training methods ( FF)

 

Be hard to find genuine working lines I'd imagine

The Americans seem to use them and have them retrieve as well... however their standards even in their top trials are a lot lower, with them often allowed many things that would be considered eliminating / major faults over here. 
 

If you wanted it to retrieve anything you’d be better off with a HPR... although as I already said the vast majority of people would be better off with a lab or spaniel. 

[ninjaferret]

6 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

The Americans seem to use them and have them retrieve as well... however their standards even in their top trials are a lot lower, with them often allowed many things that would be considered eliminating / major faults over here. 
 

If you wanted it to retrieve anything you’d be better off with a HPR... although as I already said the vast majority of people would be better off with a lab or spaniel. 

And how many pointer's of any breed have you had ?

[Bowlander]

1 hour ago, picardy said:

hi has anybody had any experience with training and working with the English pointer ,really are fascinated with these dogs and would love to work one in the near future 

have a mate who breeds and works them to falcons.  Them dogs can really run they ain't no hpr 

[Lloyd90]

16 minutes ago, ninjaferret said:

And how many pointer's of any breed have you had ?

I wouldn’t have one ... because I don’t have my own personal moor or permission on one to hunt it on. 
 

I do however know several top trial trial judges and competitors who have had them and I have echo’d their comments.

 

The VAST majority of people are better off with a lab or spaniel for the type of shooting or dog work they have access to. 
 

You have HPR’s ... don’t you work them up in Scotland? Or massive areas of land with game on it? 
 

How many people do you think have access to that type or land and game to train and work a pointer? 

[ninjaferret]

54 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

I wouldn’t have one ... because I don’t have my own personal moor or permission on one to hunt it on. 
 

I do however know several top trial trial judges and competitors who have had them and I have echo’d their comments.

 

The VAST majority of people are better off with a lab or spaniel for the type of shooting or dog work they have access to. 
 

You have HPR’s ... don’t you work them up in Scotland? Or massive areas of land with game on it? 
 

How many people do you think have access to that type or land and game to train and work a pointer? 

No I don't work them in Scotland, or have vast areas of land .

They, with the correct training and understanding can be worked however they are wanted to as like any other dog.

[Lloyd90]

31 minutes ago, ninjaferret said:

No I don't work them in Scotland, or have vast areas of land .

They, with the correct training and understanding can be worked however they are wanted to as like any other dog.

Look forward to your posts this season of you picking up with your team of English pointers in that case. 

[scotslad]

1 hour ago, ninjaferret said:

No I don't work them in Scotland, or have vast areas of land .

They, with the correct training and understanding can be worked however they are wanted to as like any other dog.

 

Yes they can but it's hitting a square peg into a round hole.

 

U don't see many shepherds training German shepherds to be sheep dogs just because the name says they can.

 

Don't know that much about EP apart from a lot off hard work to get to a decent standard. Most off the keepers pointers only come out for spring and summer counts never used on shoot days.

Do the KC not allow prong collars now at FTs? For getting dogs to walk to heel. Any dog that need a prong collar is bloody hard work and not for novices.

 

As for hprs complete waste of the breeds strong points to train it as a poor lab ( and most ive seen are lucky to get to average lab standard after a lot of hard work)

 

For the OP it all depends on wot u want it to do.

Some massive kennels in Italy and Greece where there a very popular breed

Unless u want to run it in FTs or count grouse cant see many niches for them in UK as u most likely will still need a 2nd dog to retrieve

[ninjaferret]

56 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

Look forward to your posts this season of you picking up with your team of English pointers in that case. 

If you look closely......................You can maybe see mine are German Wirehaired Pointers...........................................

And as for a square peg, yes up to a point but it's not impossible to train, work  and keep a happy dog regardless of what it's name suggests

[Walker570]

They are magnificent dogs for sure but VERY specialised. I have a friend who runs English Pointers and I have shot over them both at Lowther and in Scotland. A joy just to watch them run.

Great companions if not working if you have the space to let them open their legs. Viszlas need the same but English Pointers will out run them any day.

 

[Lloyd90]

40 minutes ago, ninjaferret said:

If you look closely......................You can maybe see mine are German Wirehaired Pointers...........................................

And as for a square peg, yes up to a point but it's not impossible to train, work  and keep a happy dog regardless of what it's name suggests

I know yours are GWP’s ... I was referring to your point that any dog can be trained to do it ... I await the day to see anyone have a team of English Pointers being used for something like picking up etc. 
 

As said above, all depends what he wants the dog for and to do ... 

[Lloyd90]

56 minutes ago, scotslad said:

 

Yes they can but it's hitting a square peg into a round hole.

 

U don't see many shepherds training German shepherds to be sheep dogs just because the name says they can.

 

Don't know that much about EP apart from a lot off hard work to get to a decent standard. Most off the keepers pointers only come out for spring and summer counts never used on shoot days.

Do the KC not allow prong collars now at FTs? For getting dogs to walk to heel. Any dog that need a prong collar is bloody hard work and not for novices.

 

As for hprs complete waste of the breeds strong points to train it as a poor lab ( and most ive seen are lucky to get to average lab standard after a lot of hard work)

 

For the OP it all depends on wot u want it to do.

Some massive kennels in Italy and Greece where there a very popular breed

Unless u want to run it in FTs or count grouse cant see many niches for them in UK as u most likely will still need a 2nd dog to retrieve

 

Exactly this. 
 

It seems to be trendy at the moment to get pointing or HPR breeds and then train and work them in a way that you’d train or work a Lab or a Springer. A bloke I spoke to recently said he wanted one to have as a peg dog ... I asked him why he didn’t just get a retriever ... he said he wanted a pointer or HPR because he thought it looked nice, and would send it off to be trained as a peg dog. 
 

If people want to do that then fine let them crack on... but it’s a bit like buying a race horse and then wanting it to pull a cart. 
 

Ive seen HPR’s in the beating line, complete waste of time, ruins any prospect of their pointing and the ones I saw being big dogs designed to run and cover a lot of ground they end up charging about miles ahead.
 

[scotslad]

Was thinking it's mainly the Scottish grouse keepers esp further north that run EP, can't think of many English keepers with them ( but mibbee just the keepers I've met/know) sure they're will be thou. 

 

The Scottish boys have them as covering big big beats as usually not as many birds as further south, very few breeds will out run an EP over a day.

Some dogs will be quartering 200m or even 300m at a time.

Beats in n eng could be 1/4 the size of a highland beat if not smaller.

I've been on single highland drives that could take in larger areas than a whole small productive English moor.

 

If u really want to see an EP in full flight try googling Paul french videos mght be some clips of the pointer and setter champs, if ur really keen it's usually ran about now.

U might be slightly late for watching it this year ( covid dependant) often about 10th aug as no birds are actually shot as no retrieving.

Could be a few other FTs on about now too but again many happen pre shooting season.

Possibly try googling Wilson young, think he's head of pointer setter ft committee, not sure wot he runs althou think could be EP. Also has a big shoot and hosts a few ft

[Lloyd90]

8 minutes ago, scotslad said:

Was thinking it's mainly the Scottish grouse keepers esp further north that run EP, can't think of many English keepers with them ( but mibbee just the keepers I've met/know) sure they're will be thou. 

 

The Scottish boys have them as covering big big beats as usually not as many birds as further south, very few breeds will out run an EP over a day.

Some dogs will be quartering 200m or even 300m at a time.

Beats in n eng could be 1/4 the size of a highland beat if not smaller.

I've been on single highland drives that could take in larger areas than a whole small productive English moor.

 

If u really want to see an EP in full flight try googling Paul french videos mght be some clips of the pointer and setter champs, if ur really keen it's usually ran about now.

U might be slightly late for watching it this year ( covid dependant) often about 10th aug as no birds are actually shot as no retrieving.

Could be a few other FTs on about now too but again many happen pre shooting season.

Possibly try googling Wilson young, think he's head of pointer setter ft committee, not sure wot he runs althou think could be EP. Also has a big shoot and hosts a few ft

I think the trials / champs are not allowing spectators this year sadly, due to Covid. 
 

Paul French however may have DVDs of the past championships that may be worth a watch. 
 

 

Nick Gregory who trials cockers and usually runs in the champs flys out to America to run pointers for some big money blokes. 
 

The EP’s are amazing animals, out there they set them off and the dogs will go for miles and miles. I believe they will have them on GPS and when the dog stops and goes on point they drive up to it, and they then flush the birds with a cocker spaniel who will also retrieve it. 
 

The dog may be on point for a considerable time waiting for them to catch up to it. 
 

America has some vast vast ground with wild birds. I can’t see many places in the UK that would replicate that kind of work or need for that type of dog. 

[Walker570]

I have had viszlas for over 35yrs and used them for everything from a days beating to stalking. They have never let me down. It is all down to how you train them.. Also a GSP I had knew what gun I had tken from the safe, I am sure, because it went into that 'mode' from word go. Again how you train them.

Back to English Pointers then I am sure with lots of patience and work you could train them to do anything other than what they are bred for, but of the many different dogs I have shot over the English Pointer really is a specialist and should be used for that.  Their ranging power is stunning.  I remember once being up on the Lammermuirs and the handler set the dog off up a broken fence line and the wind was straight in our faces, no choice. The dog jut went on and on and on till it was but a small speck in the distance and then turned and began to quarter the ground back to use about 300yrds away it went solid in that way only an English Pointer can do. We scuttled forward and as we approached the dog. The handler just lifted her hand and the dog moved very slowly forward and two grouse broke from the heather one turned my way the other across my friend and we managed to fold them both.  Our guide came up and said...

" It don't get much better than that does it"    How true.  That dog had run out over 800yrds until it knew it was time to turn into the wind. Magnificent.

Edited August 16, 2020 by Walker570

[scotslad]

Aye champs were 10th and 11th of aug, althou no mention off C19 or wiñers so either just not updated with winners or updated since C19.

 

I did Google Wilson young of eskdale sporting and he does run EP, be the only breeder I've heard off, but not really my area of knowledge

[ninjaferret]

1 hour ago, Walker570 said:

I have had viszlas for over 35yrs and used them for everything from a days beating to stalking. They have never let me down. It is all down to how you train them.. Also a GSP I had knew what gun I had tken from the safe, I am sure, because it went into that 'mode' from word go. Again how you train them.

Back to English Pointers then I am sure with lots of patience and work you could train them to do anything other than what they are bred for, but of the many different dogs I have shot over the English Pointer really is a specialist and should be used for that.  Their ranging power is stunning.  I remember once being up on the Lammermuirs and the handler set the dog off up a broken fence line and the wind was straight in our faces, no choice. The dog jut went on and on and on till it was but a small speck in the distance and then turned and began to quarter the ground back to use about 300yrds away it went solid in that way only an English Pointer can do. We scuttled forward and as we approached the dog. The handler just lifted her hand and the dog moved very slowly forward and two grouse broke from the heather one turned my way the other across my friend and we managed to fold them both.  Our guide came up and said...

" It don't get much better than that does it"    How true.  That dog had run out over 800yrds until it knew it was time to turn into the wind. Magnificent.

As I said , it's all down to training........................

[picardy]

Thanks for all the replies much appreciated for the advice going to give it some long hard thought 

[gmm243]

I had an English pointer which has now sadly passed on.Was a lovely dog and rock steady on everything from rabbits to pheasants but if he pointed a snipe he always wagged his tail slightly and looked over his shoulder to see where you were.All other species he was like a rock on and would have stayed pointing for hours if the bird did not move.He even pointed a fox for me once.The two down sides to him bar needing a lot of exercise was he was terribly hard mouthed and fought with other dogs.We got him from a man who was not well and could not keep him so missed out his early training but he helped put a lot of birds in the bag for me.Shot my first right and left at woodcock over him which will always be a special memory.

My type of shooting (quarry & ground) has changed a lot since then and I now have Labs which suit me better. If I still did the type of shooting I did 20 years ago I would have no issue having another but would like to have them young so I could do all the training myself.

[Lloyd90]

I’ve just received a book written by Guy Wallace about gundogs. 
 

In his opening paragraph he states explicitly a high number of people get the wrong breed to suit what they want the dog to do. I’ll try and post what it says properly tomorrow when back home. 

[ninjaferret]

1 hour ago, Lloyd90 said:

I’ve just received a book written by Guy Wallace about gundogs. 
 

In his opening paragraph he states explicitly a high number of people get the wrong breed to suit what they want the dog to do. I’ll try and post what it says properly tomorrow when back home. 

There are day's when lad's with lab's and spaniels have lost a bird, and who do they ask for??????????? The pointer, and guess what...............................

There's a dog will do any job, within reason, as long as time has been spent on it's training.

I would suggest contact with GMM243 as his experience is first hand.

[London Best]

11 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

I’ve just received a book written by Guy Wallace about gundogs. 
 

In his opening paragraph he states explicitly a high number of people get the wrong breed to suit what they want the dog to do. I’ll try and post what it says properly tomorrow when back home. 

Guy knows his stuff, and is a hell of a character as well. (That’s putting it mildly!)
I feel privileged to have shot with him twice: grouse over pointers and driven boar in Croatia.

[Lloyd90]

9 hours ago, ninjaferret said:

There are day's when lad's with lab's and spaniels have lost a bird, and who do they ask for??????????? The pointer, and guess what...............................

There's a dog will do any job, within reason, as long as time has been spent on it's training.

I would suggest contact with GMM243 as his experience is first hand.

So because on occasion a pointer found a bird that makes them more useful all round? Or what? 
 

Not sure what point your trying to make again ... also are you referring to straight pointers ... or your HPR’s (again)? 

 

I’m sure most dogs can turn there hands to certain jobs but as I have said... sometimes people just make it hard for themselves. 
 

Still hoping that the OP will tell us what type of shooting, game and land he wants to work the dog on.