28g 7’s

[wymberley]

15 minutes ago, old'un said:

You were talking about wood pigeon shooting!….Well in all my years I have never come across pigeon shooters who’s go-to cartridge was 36g 6s, unless you are talking before my time, I did know one guy who used nothing else but 34g 6s on pigeons, but he was the only one.

Not quite sure about this now, but I think there was a Beaufort Club for live pigeon shooting where the rules stated that the maximum gun weight was 8 lbs and the load 1&1/4 oz. The birds had to be dropped and stopped before leaving the ring or they were deemed 'lost'. With big money resting on it, big shot and a lot of it were needed. Initially, because it worked these loads were used for pigeon shooting as we know it, but over the years things have changed. However, some have not and it's as true today as it was then that pattern kills and it's no coincidence that the 1&3/16 oz load of No 6 which was often used as Cookoff says has the pellet count of the Subject load.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

That sounds about right!

Edited October 23, 2020 by TIGHTCHOKE

[Guest cookoff013]

41 minutes ago, old'un said:

You were talking about wood pigeon shooting!….Well in all my years I have never come across pigeon shooters who’s go-to cartridge was 36g 6s, unless you are talking before my time, I did know one guy who used nothing else but 34g 6s on pigeons, but he was the only one.

Yeah. I was. 

Very few would use that now. But at one time they were used on birds. Its a classic load. That same load got used for helice. Its a different game. When shell manufacturers slimed down there lines to lighter game loads. On the continent those pigeon loads are still favourable. Take rio royal "pichon" shells. 36g #6 only. Used to be cheap as 32#6. They offer only one shotsize and one payload in one gauge. Ultra classic and slimed down product line to make them really economical.

[old'un]

59 minutes ago, wymberley said:

Not quite sure about this now, but I think there was a Beaufort Club for live pigeon shooting where the rules stated that the maximum gun weight was 8 lbs and the load 1&1/4 oz. The birds had to be dropped and stopped before leaving the ring or they were deemed 'lost'. With big money resting on it, big shot and a lot of it were needed. Initially, because it worked these loads were used for pigeon shooting as we know it, but over the years things have changed. However, some have not and it's as true today as it was then that pattern kills and it's no coincidence that the 1&3/16 oz load of No 6 which was often used as Cookoff says has the pellet count of the Subject load.

Well before my time, live pigeon shooting was banned in 1921, I was referring to wood pigeon shooting, decoying as we know it.

[Smokersmith]

3 hours ago, wymberley said:

I expect Tesco would call it a loss leader.

Our trouble is is that we're such a conservative lot. We could make things much easier for ourselves - for those who have an interest in how their gun performs - if we binned the 30" and just went for the central effective 20.

I disagree !!

When I look at a pattern I want to see an even spread, with little or no central thickening.

I'm not good enough to put my quarry inside a 20" circle. Therefore consider it irrelevant.

When I can draw bird sized circles and they have the requisite number of pellet holes in them ... I know they'll work wether it's in the 20", 30"  or those birds that are in reality killed stone dead by the pellets that wouldn't even make it onto the pattern board!

Edited October 23, 2020 by Smokersmith

[old'un]

13 minutes ago, Smokersmith said:

I disagree !!

When I look at a pattern I want to see an even spread, with little or no central thickening.

I'm not good enough to put my quarry inside a 20" circle. Therefore consider it irrelevant.

When I can draw bird shaped circles and they have the requisite number of pellet holes in them ... I know they'll work wether it's in the 20", 30"  or those birds that are in reality killed stone dead by the pellets that wouldn't even make it onto the pattern board!

Yep, I often wonder just how many of my kills are within that 20”-30” circle, as you say its more than likely a good number are actually killed outside that circle.

[wymberley]

20 minutes ago, Smokersmith said:

I disagree !!

When I look at a pattern I want to see an even spread, with little or no central thickening.

I'm not good enough to put my quarry inside a 20" circle. Therefore consider it irrelevant.

When I can draw bird shaped circles and they have the requisite number of pellet holes in them ... I know they'll work wether it's in the 20", 30"  or those birds that are in reality killed stone dead by the pellets that wouldn't even make it onto the pattern board!

No problem.

The phenomenon wasn't reported (Journee) until the end of the 19th century and it wasn't really until Lowry put some meat on it c1990 that it was better known and as said, we're a conservative lot so not everyone will have heard of it yet. Apart from which, as there's nothing definitive about shotgun performance it's all about probabilities.

I will just say that I have been patterning guns for over 40 years and apart from those with little or no choke which have come close to an even spread, I have yet to find one which did not conform - at least to a reasonable degree - with the - I was going to say accepted norm, but I can't because it's not accepted by everyone - information that I have.

[Guest cookoff013]

i think patterning has partly to do with barrel length and powder charge. 

please hear me out, 

the gas used to propel the shot eventually equilibrate. right? with my patterning experiences using subsonics produces tight patterns. 

i think this is due to the gasses equillibrating so no gas can disrupt that shotcloud. ramp it up and the patterns get bigger, then eventually with such a large increase it punches a gas column through and doughnuts.

i have no evidence, it is a theroy of mine.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Slower thrown loads pattern better, I don't think it has anything to do with gases escaping past the wad, that would happen at a relative rate whether it was a fast hot load or a slower steady version.

I think slow and steady works because it does not blow the pattern.

As for barrel length making any significant part in the whole shebang. Modern powders are consumed in the first 30 centimetres or so and the length of the barrel has little to do with the forming of the pattern which is done in the choked portion. 

[Guest cookoff013]

4 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Slower thrown loads pattern better, I don't think it has anything to do with gases escaping past the wad, that would happen at a relative rate whether it was a fast hot load or a slower steady version.

I think slow and steady works because it does not blow the pattern.

As for barrel length making any significant part in the whole shebang. Modern powders are consumed in the first 30 centimetres or so and the length of the barrel has little to do with the forming of the pattern which is done in the choked portion. 

my theory is that slower loads have less gas. the longer barrels "may" equilibrate larger gas ammounts.

modern powders are consumed in the chamber, 

chokes are used to change that pattern. 

thats my understanding

[London Best]

57 minutes ago, wymberley said:

No problem.

The phenomenon wasn't reported (Journee) until the end of the 19th century and it wasn't really until Lowry put some meat on it c1990 that it was better known and as said, we're a conservative lot so not everyone will have heard of it yet. Apart from which, as there's nothing definitive about shotgun performance it's all about probabilities.

I will just say that I have been patterning guns for over 40 years and apart from those with little or no choke which have come close to an even spread, I have yet to find one which did not conform - at least to a reasonable degree - with the - I was going to say accepted norm, but I can't because it's not accepted by everyone - information that I have.

You have just given the answer to the argument.  ‘Apart from those with little or no choke which have come close to an even spread’. 
So the answer is to use lightly choked barrels, which give a larger, more even pattern, all of which is effective. I rest my case.

Edited October 23, 2020 by London Best

[TIGHTCHOKE]

1 hour ago, cookoff013 said:

my theory is that slower loads have less gas. the longer barrels "may" equilibrate larger gas ammounts.

modern powders are consumed in the chamber, 

chokes are used to change that pattern. 

thats my understanding

What do you mean by the longer barrels "may" equilibrate larger gas amounts.?

Gas is produced behind the wad (piston) and moves following the expansion. how or when will longer barrels equilibrate anything?

Edited October 23, 2020 by TIGHTCHOKE

[wymberley]

22 minutes ago, London Best said:

You have just given the answer to the argument.  ‘Apart from those with little or no choke which have come close to an even spread’. 
So the answer is to use lightly choked barrels, which give a larger, more even pattern, all of which is effective. I rest my case.

Please, before you settle down, what would be your suggested maximum range with one of your TC barrels for woodcock and why giving the cartridge load of your choice?

[London Best]

53 minutes ago, wymberley said:

Please, before you settle down, what would be your suggested maximum range with one of your TC barrels for woodcock and why giving the cartridge load of your choice?

About forty yards on Woodcock. Perhaps three or four yards further on a bigger pheasant. There is not a man in the world that can estimate range accurately to a flying bird. 
I have found in general shooting over the last sixty years that using No. 7’s generally gives more clean kills and definitely less runners than No.5’s.

[wymberley]

1 hour ago, London Best said:

About forty yards on Woodcock. Perhaps three or four yards further on a bigger pheasant. There is not a man in the world that can estimate range accurately to a flying bird. 
I have found in general shooting over the last sixty years that using No. 7’s generally gives more clean kills and definitely less runners than No.5’s.

This is quite incredibly coincidental.

You also have just given the answer to the argument, "There is not a man in the world that can estimate range accurately to a flying bird." I too am now out.

[Guest cookoff013]

2 hours ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

What do you mean by the longer barrels "may" equilibrate larger gas amounts.?

Gas is produced behind the wad (piston) and moves following the expansion. how or when will longer barrels equilibrate anything?

The pressure at breech is about 700bar. By the time the payload is shifting, its dropping quite fast. By the time the shot has reached maybe 3/4 the barrel the gas volume is low and low pressure.

Longer barrels and maybe over bore ones might equilibrate better. Ie not have a huge gas cloud disrupting the shot. As it leaves the barrel.

 

 

[Lloyd90]

On 23/10/2020 at 15:41, London Best said:

About forty yards on Woodcock. Perhaps three or four yards further on a bigger pheasant. There is not a man in the world that can estimate range accurately to a flying bird. 
I have found in general shooting over the last sixty years that using No. 7’s generally gives more clean kills and definitely less runners than No.5’s.

I shot once again today using the GB blue diamond 28g 7 1/2’s (U.K. 7’s). 
 

I took 5 pheasants walked up on one piece of land, 1 pigeon and 1 more pheasant on another bit of land. 
 

Using my AYA 117 - IMP Cyl and 3/8 choke. 
 

All of the pheasants i shot bar 1 were stone dead in the air. Came down and lights were out. The one that ran was a proper long shot that I hit with the second barrel and I had used the 3/8 first so skeet choke. 
 

I once again found that the birds were hard hit and killed well. 
 

I have shot this same permission many times before when I used to use Black Gold 32g 5’s (UK 4.5 I believe). I think I often used 1/4 and 1/2 choke. 
 

I had a LOT more runners. Often birds were down with broken wings or run off. On one occasion I shot a woodcock and it was smashed up. 
 

I am very impressed and happy with the performance of the 28g 7. If anything I would love to have some 30/32g 7’s. 

[Stonepark]

Well done on another great sounding day!

[Realale]

Empire cartridges do a 32g 7

[wymberley]

On 17/11/2020 at 00:06, Lloyd90 said:

I shot once again today using the GB blue diamond 28g 7 1/2’s (U.K. 7’s). 
 

I took 5 pheasants walked up on one piece of land, 1 pigeon and 1 more pheasant on another bit of land. 
 

Using my AYA 117 - IMP Cyl and 3/8 choke. 
 

All of the pheasants i shot bar 1 were stone dead in the air. Came down and lights were out. The one that ran was a proper long shot that I hit with the second barrel and I had used the 3/8 first so skeet choke. 
 

I once again found that the birds were hard hit and killed well. 
 

I have shot this same permission many times before when I used to use Black Gold 32g 5’s (UK 4.5 I believe). I think I often used 1/4 and 1/2 choke. 
 

I had a LOT more runners. Often birds were down with broken wings or run off. On one occasion I shot a woodcock and it was smashed up. 
 

I am very impressed and happy with the performance of the 28g 7. If anything I would love to have some 30/32g 7’s. 

 

7 hours ago, Realale said:

Empire cartridges do a 32g 7

Sorted. Ideal for max' energy range for woodcock with appopriate choke.

[Lloyd90]

14 hours ago, Realale said:

Empire cartridges do a 32g 7

Just been having a look. And Free delivery. 
 

I am chopping down birds with 28g 7’s so far, wonder what the 30/32g 7’s would bring. 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

17 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

Just been having a look. And Free delivery. 
 

I am chopping down birds with 28g 7’s so far, wonder what the 30/32g 7’s would bring. 

Deader birds!

[Lloyd90]

48 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Deader birds!

Currently dead before they hit the ground... could they be dead before they start coming down? 😬🤣🤣

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Not sure why you want to change what is already working for you?

[figgy]

Cookoff013,

I know what your saying, longer barrels and overboring increase the volume behind the wad giving lower gas pressure, less to blow into the back of the shot cloud as it leaves the muzzle.  More powder or shorter barrels will have higher pressure gas leaving the barrel behind the shot causing disruption to the shot patterns as the gas accelerates into the shot cloud disrupting it.

Same happens with airgun pellets if your pushing more air than needed behind it, upsets the pellet and accuracy.

I have had donut patterns in the past but only with full chokes, had much better pattern with 3/4 choke in same gun with same cart.

Too much powder has spoilt some of my Wildfowling reloads patterns, being plaswads I didn't think it would matter but it does. How I don't know as the shot is still in the wad for a bit as it leaves the gun. So gasses behind I wouldn't have a chance to blow the shot pattern.

Edited November 19, 2020 by figgy