Electric car running costs

[oowee]

Just now, AVB said:

I thought it had been done in Westminster. Could be mistaken though. I would have thought one of the charging companies like BP Chargemaster would jump at the chance. There is a big captive audience. I might have a word with a few people to see if there is an opportunity to be had. 

I worked with the chap that created charge master (he set up traffic master previously) together with some of the energy companies. Much of the stuff that has been put in has been quite tentative. There is definitely room for dedicated purpose built charge centres but I guess these will come as confidence builds. 

[oowee]

That Siemens trial looks interesting. I wonder how it was done? 

[Westward]

According to the BBC - so it must be true - Tesla are ending free Supercharger for Tesla owners.

My real concern is longer motorway journeys and having to stop for juice at the services. How many charging points will there be? Last time I bought fuel at the services there was a continuous flow of vehicles using all 16 pumps. That probably equates to 250-300 per hour and most cars these days can do 500+ on a full tank. If it takes 30 minutes to charge the battery pack then to avoid backups the services will need 500 charge points. Where will they install those I wonder.

[London Best]

4 minutes ago, Westward said:

According to the BBC - so it must be true - Tesla are ending free Supercharger for Tesla owners.

My real concern is longer motorway journeys and having to stop for juice at the services. How many charging points will there be? Last time I bought fuel at the services there was a continuous flow of vehicles using all 16 pumps. That probably equates to 250-300 per hour and most cars these days can do 500+ on a full tank. If it takes 30 minutes to charge the battery pack then to avoid backups the services will need 500 charge points. Where will they install those I wonder.

You can afford to buy fuel at motorway services?!!!

[Westward]

2 minutes ago, London Best said:

You can afford to buy fuel at motorway services?!!!

Only when desperate!

[oowee]

27 minutes ago, London Best said:

You can afford to buy fuel at motorway services?!!!

 

25 minutes ago, Westward said:

Only when desperate!

I was thinking the same. I towed my boat back from Exmouth last month and had to use the motorway services to refuel my Hilux. It was truly eye watering so I only put £25 in. 😆

[AVB]

1 hour ago, Westward said:

According to the BBC - so it must be true - Tesla are ending free Supercharger for Tesla owners.

My real concern is longer motorway journeys and having to stop for juice at the services. How many charging points will there be? Last time I bought fuel at the services there was a continuous flow of vehicles using all 16 pumps. That probably equates to 250-300 per hour and most cars these days can do 500+ on a full tank. If it takes 30 minutes to charge the battery pack then to avoid backups the services will need 500 charge points. Where will they install those I wonder.

You are looking at the problem through the eyes of a traditional car driver in that you think you can only fill up at petrol stations. With electric cars most of the ‘filling up’ happens at home. Or there are other alternatives - shops, train stations, airports etc. With a traditional car you fill it up and run until empty. With an electric car you just top up whenever you can. 
 

[Walker570]

Non of you have told me how we dispose of the batteries. They do not last forever. PLUS the only country producing them I believe is China. I wonder if they will take the dud ones back and bury them.

[udderlyoffroad]

Where to even begin with this.

Yes, early adopters pay a premium, and bring the prices down for everyone else, as with all other forms of technology.

But a £60k rangie or Tesla just isn't something the great unwashed out there can afford.  The figures may look good for you, and your accountant may be able to make them work, but for the rest of us, it's cloud cuckoo land.

Now, admittedly there is a decade's worth of development between now and the proposed ban on new ICE vehicle sales, but we are still miles off.

I do wish those making policy occasionally talked to someone without the benefit of a ministerial car (or even just someone who lives outside London and can't commute on those EVs that run on rails....).

And I do wish someone would grow a pair at the national grid.  There is a shortage of generating capacity, despite the weasel words on their website.  This country simply does not have the capacity for EVs unless something radical is done.  And before you say batteries in EVs to store excess capacity, not with the current generation smart meters.  

 

12 hours ago, AVB said:

You are looking at the problem through the eyes of a traditional car driver in that you think you can only fill up at petrol stations. With electric cars most of the ‘filling up’ happens at home. Or there are other alternatives - shops, train stations, airports etc. With a traditional car you fill it up and run until empty. With an electric car you just top up whenever you can. 
 

I get it, truly I  do.  And whilst the ability to leave home every morning with a 'full tank' appeals, the idea that I have spend anymore time at a motorway services than is absolutely required to empty my bladder does not.  Now for the most part, 150-odd miles range will be absolutely fine.  But when it isn't, planning journeys  around opportunistic charging is an incredible waste of time.

 

11 hours ago, Walker570 said:

Non of you have told me how we dispose of the batteries. They do not last forever. PLUS the only country producing them I believe is China. I wonder if they will take the dud ones back and bury them.

They have scrap value.  Already quite an industry repurposing them.

 

[Walker570]

25 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

Where to even begin with this.

Yes, early adopters pay a premium, and bring the prices down for everyone else, as with all other forms of technology.

But a £60k rangie or Tesla just isn't something the great unwashed out there can afford.  The figures may look good for you, and your accountant may be able to make them work, but for the rest of us, it's cloud cuckoo land.

Now, admittedly there is a decade's worth of development between now and the proposed ban on new ICE vehicle sales, but we are still miles off.

I do wish those making policy occasionally talked to someone without the benefit of a ministerial car (or even just someone who lives outside London and can't commute on those EVs that run on rails....).

And I do wish someone would grow a pair at the national grid.  There is a shortage of generating capacity, despite the weasel words on their website.  This country simply does not have the capacity for EVs unless something radical is done.  And before you say batteries in EVs to store excess capacity, not with the current generation smart meters.  

 

I get it, truly I  do.  And whilst the ability to leave home every morning with a 'full tank' appeals, the idea that I have spend anymore time at a motorway services than is absolutely required to empty my bladder does not.  Now for the most part, 150-odd miles range will be absolutely fine.  But when it isn't, planning journeys  around opportunistic charging is an incredible waste of time.

 

They have scrap value.  Already quite an industry repurposing them.

 

That is fine until there is a glut, then what?

[Farmboy91]

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/electric-car-volkswagen-e-golf-london-cornwall-drive-a9056226.html

This is worth a read.

I drove from Suffolk down to lizard point last summer, one quick pit stop and used well under half a tank of diesel despite the car being packed to the rafters.

I also took my lad up to the royal armoury in Leeds, then to the big walking drag line near Swillington, then on to Chesterfield to see the church then and quick stop in Derby before heading back to Suffolk. That day I got 402 miles from half a tank of diesel. 

I'm not interested in any other sort of vehicle until they can produce a sensible milage from one charge. 

The motorist always bears the brunt of taxes. If they want to tax something, tax air fares to high heaven. No one needs to travel abroad do they? It's a luxury. Having a car shouldn't have to be but that's fast what it will become. 

[ditchman]

when electric cars really catch on the excheqer will see its tax revinue do down.............then they will impose some sort of electric tax to cover the losses...........which ever way we go we are going to be stuffed well and good..

[Farmboy91]

1 minute ago, ditchman said:

when electric cars really catch on the excheqer will see its tax revinue do down.............then they will impose some sort of electric tax to cover the losses...........which ever way we go we are going to be stuffed well and good..

Pay per mile was the suggestion the other day.

[udderlyoffroad]

7 minutes ago, Farmboy91 said:

f they want to tax something, tax air fares to high heaven. No one needs to travel abroad do they? It's a luxury

Ummm, some of us work outside the UK you know.  We'd like to see our families without being taxed to high heaven.  And that's if you think they aren't already.

[Farmboy91]

9 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

Ummm, some of us work outside the UK you know.  We'd like to see our families without being taxed to high heaven.  And that's if you think they aren't already.

 Sorry, I should have said abroad for a holiday.

When you can fly to another country for less than it takes to fill your car up, somethings wrong don't you think?

Edit to add, your need is no different to mine albeit slightly larger 😂, because of where I live and the commitments I have, I can't be without a car the same as to work you couldn't be without a plane. 

I read something the other day that suggested the average life span of a car was something like 13.9 years, so if your buying new now don't worry about the 2030 deadline. My mx5 is 30 now and still going strong, I plan on keeping that until I physically cannot put combustible fuel in it.

Edited November 19, 2020 by Farmboy91

[udderlyoffroad]

5 minutes ago, Farmboy91 said:

When you can fly to another country for less than it takes to fill your car up, somethings wrong don't you think?

Eh?  Why is that a consideration?

Aircraft for the most part are incredibly fuel efficient compared to even 10 years ago, and are operated to within an inch of their specs and capacity.

And when was the last time you actually got the 'headline' return fare including taxes and fees, for less than, say,  £70 it takes to fill up your car?

[scarecrow243]

they want us to have electric cars but will the army get electric tanks etc  not on your nelly 

[Farmboy91]

23 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

Eh?  Why is that a consideration?

Aircraft for the most part are incredibly fuel efficient compared to even 10 years ago, and are operated to within an inch of their specs and capacity.

And when was the last time you actually got the 'headline' return fare including taxes and fees, for less than, say,  £70 it takes to fill up your car?

Because the car is a necessity yet it costs the best part of a days wage to fill up? Yet you can get on a plane and fly elsewhere for less which in I would guess the vast majority of cases is not a necessity.

Sooner or later we will be in a position to use vehicles that are less economically viable that what we are using now because of all the hoo-ha around climate change yet while the luxury of a holiday abroad, is relatively cheap and unquestioned? 

To be honest I don't fly, so I cant say I check prices regularly but a quick Google shows cheap flights are out there. 

16 minutes ago, scarecrow243 said:

they want us to have electric cars but will the army get electric tanks etc  not on your nelly 

I'm looking forward to seeing how the electric tractors get on once there in the heavy clay soil etc.

 

[ditchman]

16 minutes ago, scarecrow243 said:

they want us to have electric cars but will the army get electric tanks etc  not on your nelly 

and 400hp electric combines and tractors to grow our food......

and electric jets and electric container ships and electric nuclear weapons and subs..............

hydrogen is the way my boy.......them scientists have to wake up and smell the coffee

[Farmboy91]

10 minutes ago, ditchman said:

 

hydrogen is the way my boy.......them scientists have to wake up and smell the coffee

100%

[ditchman]

1 hour ago, Farmboy91 said:

100%

i think in the late 1970's early 80's...Vauxhall developed a Hydrogen fueled car and ran it for a couple of years in California with great sucess............then all of a sudden it disapeared and went quiet,..............never heard of again.........

Norwich city council were running small tipper lorries on gas and they were fine in the late 70's-80's...........

all to do with the oil lobby...........

also ..........about 10 years ago in west africa...there was a young black lad that had developed a small Hydrogen cracking plant run off mains electricity that was stepped down thro a transformer to 115v.....thro the cracking plant that produced enough hydrogen for him to run a burner to cook on....

cracking Hydrogen is not rocket science and dosnt need big kit...........thats why the space agencies are so keen on finding water on planets....so they can crack it and use it as fuel...to planet hop..........

Edited November 19, 2020 by ditchman

[Farmboy91]

5 minutes ago, ditchman said:

i think in the late 1970's early 80's...Vauxhall developed a Hydrogen fueled car and ran it for a couple of years in California with great sucess............then all of a sudden it disapeared and went quiet,..............never heard of again.........

Norwich city council were running small tipper lorries on gas and they were fine in the late 70's-80's...........

all to do with the oil lobby...........

I'll have to have a Google of that, thanks 👍

I do remember James may having a hydrogen car on one of he's cars of the people programs, seems like the logical step away from fossils fuels.

That said, I love a dirty diesel 😂

[udderlyoffroad]

58 minutes ago, Farmboy91 said:

Because the car is a necessity yet it costs the best part of a days wage to fill up? Yet you can get on a plane and fly elsewhere for less which in I would guess the vast majority of cases is not a necessity.

Necessity for you and your job.  Flying a necessity for mine.

My point is, heavily taxing something you don't consider essential (to the point where only rich can afford it) is not a solution.  And, arguably, as one of the highest taxed nations on earth, it already happens.

Personally, I'd tax the hell out of tattoos to the point where only the mega rich could afford them.  You don't 'need' a tattoo.  Come to that, you don't need a gun either.  You can scare away pests.

 

1 hour ago, Farmboy91 said:

yet while the luxury of a holiday abroad, is relatively cheap and unquestioned?

Have you not read/seen the onslought of articles/features by clueless journos (who clearly failed GCSE science) about exactly this?

 

1 hour ago, Farmboy91 said:

To be honest I don't fly, so I cant say I check prices regularly but a quick Google shows cheap flights are out there. 

If you did, you'd know that the prices of fares advertised on google results is never what you end up paying.

 

1 hour ago, ditchman said:

hydrogen is the way my boy.......them scientists have to wake up and smell the coffee

Hydrogen fuel cells generate electricity that then powers an electric motor.  Hydrogen isn't a fuel, it's the storage medium.

 

12 minutes ago, ditchman said:

Norwich city council were running small tipper lorries on gas and they were fine in the late 70's-80's...........

Bristol makes a great song and dance about its natural gas powered buses...

 

9 minutes ago, ditchman said:

all to do with the oil lobby...........

More likely to do with basic physics and the vast amounts of energy you need to generate and contain hydrogen.

 

[Farmboy91]

2 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

Necessity for you and your job.  Flying a necessity for mine.

My point is, heavily taxing something you don't consider essential (to the point where only rich can afford it) is not a solution.  And, arguably, as one of the highest taxed nations on earth, it already happens.

Personally, I'd tax the hell out of tattoos to the point where only the mega rich could afford them.  You don't 'need' a tattoo.  Come to that, you don't need a gun either.  You can scare away pests.

 

Have you not read/seen the onslought of articles/features by clueless journos (who clearly failed GCSE science) about exactly this?

 

If you did, you'd know that the prices of fares advertised on google results is never what you end up paying.

 

Hydrogen fuel cells generate electricity that then powers an electric motor.  Hydrogen isn't a fuel, it's the storage medium.

 

Bristol makes a great song and dance about its natural gas powered buses...

 

More likely to do with basic physics and the vast amounts of energy you need to generate and contain hydrogen.

 

When that first lockdown finished do you not remember all the talk of how clear the sky/air was due to lack of flights? 

No, your right you don't need a tattoo but as far as I'm aware tattoos don't contribute to climate change? 

 

[udderlyoffroad]

12 minutes ago, Farmboy91 said:

When that first lockdown finished do you not remember all the talk of how clear the sky/air was due to lack of flights? 

If that's your metric (clear skies due to lack of vapour trails), look up Sept 12, 2001. 

 

13 minutes ago, Farmboy91 said:

No, your right you don't need a tattoo but as far as I'm aware tattoos don't contribute to climate change? 

The impact of aviation, is, in my opinion, way overstated.  2% of global CO2 emissions, and 12% of transport emissions, according to ATAG.  Mandy Rice Davies applies, obviously.  And given its necessity to the global economy, one that should be tolerated whilst other emitters are targeted.  Power generation from open cast coal mining, for instance.

One suspects the overstatement can be attributed to the chattering classes reductivism "Gad, the great unwashed are flying everywhere, and it causes pollution.  We can't have that now, can we".