Taking a friend clay pigeon

[Scully]

5 minutes ago, Westley said:

I am not going to name them , but, I know of 2 grounds that are reasonably local that retain your certificate until you return their clay counter. Either that or you do not shoot. 

Isn’t that weird! Whatever happened to trust?

Do they really have folk just driving off without paying, after shooting? 
Sad state of affairs on both sides. 

Edited January 25, 2021 by Scully

[Westley]

Just now, Scully said:

Isn’t that weird! Whatever happened to trust?

Do they really have folk just driving off without paying, after shooting? 

No, BUT they have driven off taking the card that has pre paid clays on it.  I did that on one occasion, at a ground where I am known, I simply telephoned them and returned it the following week. The 2 grounds in question only hold the certificates of people that they do not know.

[Gordon R]

Quote

I am not going to name them , but, I know of 2 grounds that are reasonably local that retain your certificate until you return their clay counter. Either that or you do not shoot. 

I can understand why they do it. I was asked to leave a credit card with Manchester Clay Club at Worsley. I pointed out that they would have a problem if someone had their card cloned. 

They just don't think the consequences through if things go wrong. A couple of times I have produced my driving licence when opening up a bank or building society account and they took a photo copy. I pointed out the illegality to them, but they proceeded. I even told the TSB I would be seeking a pay out, but they said they always did it. I smiled and got another junior pay out.

[zipdog]

1 hour ago, Gordon R said:

I can understand why they do it. I was asked to leave a credit card with Manchester Clay Club at Worsley. I pointed out that they would have a problem if someone had their card cloned. 

They just don't think the consequences through if things go wrong. A couple of times I have produced my driving licence when opening up a bank or building society account and they took a photo copy. I pointed out the illegality to them, but they proceeded. I even told the TSB I would be seeking a pay out, but they said they always did it. I smiled and got another junior pay out.

I must admit i find the law surrounding this ridiculous and contradictory. In my profession I must undertake GDPR checks on my clients before undertaking work. According to the relevant chartered body I must hold copies of ID on file!! The whole system is crazy and while I would like to think everything is kept 100% secure its just another added risk in identity fraud. 

I wouldn’t like to think how many people hold a copy of my drivers licence or passport. Because that is what is required by GDPR!!! Who is to blame if I am a victim of Identify fraud?

[zipdog]

And then there was the man who runs a local gun shop. He decided, which police approval apparently, it was a great idea to scan everyones shotgun certificates into his computer so you didn’t have to take it with you when you needed cartridges!! I told him No Way! Firstly if he gets hacked the criminals have a list of lots of shotgun holders within 30 miles, secondly there’s nothing to say that a person hasn’t had their licence revoked in-between him scanning it in and their next visit!  Apparently that thought hadn’t crossed his mind!!!! 

Edited January 25, 2021 by zipdog

[Gordon R]

Quote

According to the relevant chartered body I must hold copies of ID on file!!

With the bank and building society, they need to establish who you are. Once they have established that they have no right to continue to hold the data you supplied - i.e. driver's licence.

[Westley]

14 hours ago, Gordon R said:

I can understand why they do it. I was asked to leave a credit card with Manchester Clay Club at Worsley. I pointed out that they would have a problem if someone had their card cloned. 

They just don't think the consequences through if things go wrong. A couple of times I have produced my driving licence when opening up a bank or building society account and they took a photo copy. I pointed out the illegality to them, but they proceeded. I even told the TSB I would be seeking a pay out, but they said they always did it. I smiled and got another junior pay out.

NOW, that ground rings a bell   !

[LeedsZeppelin]

On 25/01/2021 at 19:50, Westley said:

I know of 2 grounds that are reasonably local that retain your certificate until you return their clay counter. Either that or you do not shoot. 

If I came across that I'd get back in my car and never return.

I'd probably offer a compromise of me paying upfront for a round of clays, but I'd rather give my money to a business that shows a little trust, there are still plenty around.

[Westley]

6 hours ago, LeedsZeppelin said:

If I came across that I'd get back in my car and never return.

I'd probably offer a compromise of me paying upfront for a round of clays, but I'd rather give my money to a business that shows a little trust, there are still plenty around.

I am sorry but I have to disagree with you. Back in the late 1990's I was asked by someone struggling for help to run a weekly clay shoot single handed. Basically it was being run from the back of a van, parked on site.  I said that IF I was to come on board that things must change immediately. I suggested to the guy running things that he was being ripped off week after week. He was taking at face value what people told him they had shot and how many boxes of ammo they had taken. I was able to get a used Portacabin put on site and my Wife and her Sister did light refreshments, but, they also took the money, put shooters names on score sheets and kept ammo in a cupboard behind the counter, selling it and taking the money at point of sale. At the end of the first day of my involvement, I received a phone call from my business 'partner', telling me that he had done the maths and the takings had DOUBLED. I informed him that some of his 'regulars' had been ripping him off for a long time. We took on a loan, added more traps and 2 new layouts and trebled the membership. We also began doing corporate days and both of us having done the CPSA Instructors course, were able to offer lessons to those who asked for them. All of this came from a small clay shoot being run from the back of a van.  So, I can fully understand why some grounds ask for some means of security to make sure their equipment is returned AND that includes 'club' guns too.

[webber]

We took over Astley Gun Club a little over 5 years ago.  At the time of take over the ground, facilities and equipment were severely run down.

We inherited a long standing bunch of members.  We had two handover shoots; then it was down to us.  During the setup of our first solo shoot, I counted the number of boxes of clays used for the set up.  At the end of the shoot I estimated the number of clays remaining in each trap and kept notes.  On my return home I did the maths.  It transpired that for every clay we had been paid for, we had thrown almost two clays; clearly something was wrong and it wasn't all down to no birds.

We began a programme of procuring new traps and revamping the old ones, but the high losses persisted.

I looked at different clay counting systems and fancied the BRB system.  We bought one unit and set it up on the practice stand which was purchased separately at the time. Within  20 minutes one member went into the booking office and asked if the new system meant that he had to pay for all the clays he threw.  My then partner politely explained that had always been the general idea.  We never saw the fellow or his wife again.

We bit the bullet and purchased sufficient units for the stands plus a spare set.

The first shoot with the counter system was interesting to say the least.  We pre loaded a dongle for each shooter plus 10%.  We requested a £10 deposit for the dongle and gave members the option to buy a dongle to allow them to accrue any unused allowances.  There was a lot of bitching and whining, and a lot fewer shots fired.

Over a few years we continued to buy more traps and increase the number of stands and birds shot, we now shoot 100 birds over 12 stands, a decent jump from 30 birds over 5 stands.  Over the 5 years we've continued to improve and invest in the facilities.  We gradually lost a lot of the inherited members who couldn't manage to shoot a round with 10% allowance and regularly demanded top ups via the clark.  We kept a record for a while and it soon became clear who was trying to work it on us.  I had a gentle word with some, and suggested that R&ASC was not the only club to shoot on a Sunday, and that maybe they would like to try the facilities elsewhere as their continued regular whinging was getting tiresome.

We still have a couple of hand fulls of inherited members who are an asset to the club; the majority of members are made up of recruits since take over; complaints are very few, and no birds average less than 5%, although we can always have a glitch which we deal with.

The count down and deposit system works for us.  We've had all sorts offered as deposits ranging from, SGC, driving license, Tweed shooting coat, spare wheel and spare gun; oh nearly forgot the dog.  Fortunately, our clerk is a retired Police dog handler.

webber

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Very interesting, I have found similar when running shoots, it is always the minority that spoil things for everyone else.

[DUNKS]

On 25/01/2021 at 19:55, Scully said:

Isn’t that weird! Whatever happened to trust?

Do they really have folk just driving off without paying, after shooting? 
Sad state of affairs on both sides. 

The clay ground we shoot at keeps your car keys when issuing a dongle if you are not known. So yes folk do often just take off without paying. We were also told on returning ours how strange it was that we rarely got any no birds when it was common to report perhaps 10 or 12.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

1 hour ago, DUNKS said:

The clay ground we shoot at keeps your car keys when issuing a dongle if you are not known. So yes folk do often just take off without paying. We were also told on returning ours how strange it was that we rarely got any no birds when it was common to report perhaps 10 or 12.

Yes strange that, isn't it.

We only report genuine no birds!

[Scully]

3 hours ago, DUNKS said:

The clay ground we shoot at keeps your car keys when issuing a dongle if you are not known. So yes folk do often just take off without paying. We were also told on returning ours how strange it was that we rarely got any no birds when it was common to report perhaps 10 or 12.

I can only assume it doesn’t happen at the grounds I go to; I’ve never been asked for anything as a ‘deposit’. 
I certainly wouldn’t shoot there if they wanted my ticket.

We only ever declare genuine no birds, and sometimes don’t even bother to declare them. It’s not like they’re expensive, but then again there are some tight wads about. 

[Westley]

5 hours ago, Scully said:

I can only assume it doesn’t happen at the grounds I go to; I’ve never been asked for anything as a ‘deposit’. 
I certainly wouldn’t shoot there if they wanted my ticket.

We only ever declare genuine no birds, and sometimes don’t even bother to declare them. It’s not like they’re expensive, but then again there are some tight wads about. 

A lot depends on where you are shooting and the journey involved to get there. IF, I have just driven 100 or more miles to arrive at a ground and leaving my Certificate  with the 'desk' is the only way I am going to get to shoot, then I know what I am going to do and leaving without shooting is not an option. If I go back or not is another thing.

I think the 'no bird' situation is often caused by some shooters INSISTING that they see a pair before shooting. If you have 10% on top for 'no birds' and you 'see' a pair on each stand, you will run out of credit before the last stand.  I can never understand the mentality of some shooters demanding they be allowed to be shown targets before they shoot.  IF it is a registered shoot, then the Referee on the stand will sort out if you need to see a pair or not. If it is not a registered shoot, then you are likely to be shooting just for practice or entertainment and 'seeing' a pair should not enter the equation. I shoot with a regular group of friends and we score the round because we all like to know what we have shot at the end. At each stand the opening shooter will take 2 single birds, 1 off each trap and then revert to on report or sim pairs, the remainder shoot on report. If there are other shooters on the stand before we shoot then this will not apply. We always return our cards with quite a few clays left on them using this method. I have witnessed other groups shooting where EACH member of the group has 'seen' a pair before shooting    

[Newbie to this]

We never "see a pair", we just go straight in and shoot on report (or however the shooter likes).

Last shooter goes first on the next stand so everyone has to have a go as the first shooter without seeing a pair, unless someone is already on the stand and they are paying attention.

No point wasting clays.

[LeedsZeppelin]

On 27/01/2021 at 20:02, Westley said:

I am sorry but I have to disagree with you...

With respect, I'm not sure what you are disagreeing with. I wouldn't leave my ticket, or car keys, with someone I don't know. There are plenty of other grounds that don't ask this when I shoot there.

It does sound like your business partner couldn't keep track of running a business, hence why it got in such a state. Why would you let customers help themselves to cartridges, and is that even legal? It appears you turned things round for the better though.

I know people can be dishonest and some will take the **** if you let them. A shooting ground local to me had a very noticeable decrease in clay usage once the Claymate card system was installed, so clearly some people were paying for a round of 50 and shooting way more. With a mix of recording clays called for and more diligent staff he has noticed an increase in profitability.

12 hours ago, DUNKS said:

The clay ground we shoot at keeps your car keys when issuing a dongle if you are not known. So yes folk do often just take off without paying. 

I wouldn't give my car keys either. 

If people leaving without paying is such a common problem, then maybe they need to change their procedures. If dongles are going missing, why not structure that it into the pricing?

8 hours ago, Scully said:

I can only assume it doesn’t happen at the grounds I go to; I’ve never been asked for anything as a ‘deposit’. 
I certainly wouldn’t shoot there if they wanted my ticket.

I don't recall ever being asked either. Maybe we have honest looking faces.

[Scully]

We roll up, go into clubhouse, sign in, get a card, go to first stand where it tells you what to expect ( not always what you get! 😀) get ready and shout ‘pull’! Next stand other bloke goes first. We keep a rough count of no birds but aren’t really that bothered unless it gets silly; like I said they’re not that expensive. 
On return we go back into clubhouse, hand over card, tell her about no birds, traps playing up, pay, have a brew and a burger ( good burgers at Westlands 😋 ) have the craic, sign out and go home.....unless we’re going round again! Simples! 🙂

Ditto for Crabtree, although the food isn’t as good. 😀

No doubt there’ll come a time when all this changes as there are always those who extract the urine and spoil it for the rest. 

Edited January 29, 2021 by Scully

[DUNKS]

11 hours ago, LeedsZeppelin said:

With respect, I'm not sure what you are disagreeing with. I wouldn't leave my ticket, or car keys, with someone I don't know. There are plenty of other grounds that don't ask this when I shoot there.

It does sound like your business partner couldn't keep track of running a business, hence why it got in such a state. Why would you let customers help themselves to cartridges, and is that even legal? It appears you turned things round for the better though.

I know people can be dishonest and some will take the **** if you let them. A shooting ground local to me had a very noticeable decrease in clay usage once the Claymate card system was installed, so clearly some people were paying for a round of 50 and shooting way more. With a mix of recording clays called for and more diligent staff he has noticed an increase in profitability.

I wouldn't give my car keys either. 

If people leaving without paying is such a common problem, then maybe they need to change their procedures. If dongles are going missing, why not structure that it into the pricing?

I don't recall ever being asked either. Maybe we have honest looking faces.

Who said anything about dongles going missing?

[Old farrier]

Bit of a different system here (now) when we’re allowed to go 

all caddie rounds card scored and buttons pressed by caddy pre pay on booking 

im well know at all the grounds however if I take anyone they have to sign in with a declaration that they arnt a prohibited person allowed 3 visits before applying for membership and only allowed to shoot with a member with a valid sgc which makes sense from a safety and insurance point of view 

also leaves a paper trail if they choose to go on and get a license 

one ground allows you to take your youngsters clays free if you buy the cartridges for them there and do the paperwork 12—-16 

all grounds are different and to be honest I don’t see a problem with doing a bit of paperwork before you shoot 

let’s accept it some of us are proper dodgy looking characters 😂😂😂😊

[LeedsZeppelin]

4 hours ago, DUNKS said:

Who said anything about dongles going missing?

If there was never an issue with them disappearing why keep people's car keys as a ransom?

If people were returning dongles but were not paying, I suspect it is more likely to be the staff that are dishonest.

[webber]

1 hour ago, LeedsZeppelin said:

If there was never an issue with them disappearing why keep people's car keys as a ransom?

If people were returning dongles but were not paying, I suspect it is more likely to be the staff that are dishonest.

There are basically two systems in use:

Count up.  Pay on exit.  Some grounds require a deposit, some don't.

Count down.  Pay on entry.  Some grounds require a deposit on dongle / card, some don't.

At R&ASC we use the count down and deposit of £10 on the dongle.  We occasionally have the occasional person drive off with the dongle, but its not a massive problem, as opposed to the alternative method that can easily cost the ground circa £100 if a dongle or card for say 3 shooters drives off without paying.

It would be good to think that everyone who holds an SGC is honest.  Sadly my experience would suggest the opposite, but it would be wrong to tar all with the same brush.  Business is built on trust, but there has to be limits set, otherwise the ground loses out hands down.

webber

[DUNKS]

1 hour ago, LeedsZeppelin said:

If there was never an issue with them disappearing why keep people's car keys as a ransom?

If people were returning dongles but were not paying, I suspect it is more likely to be the staff that are dishonest.

Nope. People take a dongle so the clay throwers work. Shoot a couple of hundred clays. Leave the dongle at their last station. Get in their cars and drive off. Simples.

[LeedsZeppelin]

22 minutes ago, webber said:

There are basically two systems in use:

Count up.  Pay on exit.  Some grounds require a deposit, some don't.

Count down.  Pay on entry.  Some grounds require a deposit on dongle / card, some don't.

At R&ASC we use the count down and deposit of £10 on the dongle. 

I've used both systems without issue, and also without leaving my ticket or car keys as collateral.

R&ASC appear to have a decent system.

15 minutes ago, DUNKS said:

Nope. People take a dongle so the clay throwers work. Shoot a couple of hundred clays. Leave the dongle at their last station. Get in their cars and drive off. Simples.

That sounds pretty easy to prevent.

Permanently mark every dongle with a number. Take a name, SGC number and telephone number upon registering, and note the dongle number. At the end of the day see what is missing, then contact the user reminding them to pay. If they still don't want to pay then blacklist them and contact the police giving their name and SGC number and report the theft of the clays. 

Alternatively, make the layout of the ground so that they have to pass the office on the way from the last stand to the carpark. Ensure that any staff at the ground gently remind anyone they see heading that way that they need to pay. 

Most people that would do this are opportunists. If you make it difficult to do, or have a risk of repercussion, they will either start paying or shoot elsewhere.

[DUNKS]

43 minutes ago, LeedsZeppelin said:

I've used both systems without issue, and also without leaving my ticket or car keys as collateral.

R&ASC appear to have a decent system.

That sounds pretty easy to prevent.

Permanently mark every dongle with a number. Take a name, SGC number and telephone number upon registering, and note the dongle number. At the end of the day see what is missing, then contact the user reminding them to pay. If they still don't want to pay then blacklist them and contact the police giving their name and SGC number and report the theft of the clays. 

Alternatively, make the layout of the ground so that they have to pass the office on the way from the last stand to the carpark. Ensure that any staff at the ground gently remind anyone they see heading that way that they need to pay. 

Most people that would do this are opportunists. If you make it difficult to do, or have a risk of repercussion, they will either start paying or shoot elsewhere.

Or much simpler just ask form car keys as a deposit.