HW 97 advice

[gmm243]

Hi, have been offered a second hand .22 HW97 in 16ft/lb.Not an issue about it needing FAC as all airguns must be licenced here and I will prob be doing a one on/one off with another lower power .177.Am pretty sure this is the Black line edition- ambidetrix black synthetic stock.

My question is :Does anyone have any experience with this gun at this power?I would think a 12ft/lb gun would be nicer to shoot but does the extra power equate to poorer accuracy?I remember shooting an air rifle of my brothers which was about 24ft/lb which had an awful twang when fired, very poor grouping and was pretty useless over all.

Don't want to buy a dud and could wait on for a 12ft/lb rifle to come available in time if that was the advice given.

Also do these guns shoot well out of the box?I don't have anyone near that would be able to do any work to it so it will be shot in it's original.

Thanks.

[spanj]

Do you have fac already as I doubt the air gun licence will allow a 1 for 1 (admittedly I know nothing about the air gun licence)

[ditchman]

the HW 97 factory spec is sold as sub 12ft/lbs...........so i suggest the one you are interested in has been tampered with...different spring and guts.........the HW range are very easy to retro fit and put over the 12ft/lbs limit...........being a very heavy air rifle the accuaracy should still be good if over 12ft/lbs

[Ultrastu]

16 fpe isn't really any great advantage in .22 cal 

A 16 grn pellet would be around 675 fps (slower than a heavy .177 pellet in sub 12 ) 

A lighter 13.4 grn pellet goes around 730 fps  .

So not much faster .

Airgun pellets don't have any great super stopping power until you get to .25 cal at 40 fpe (in my opinion  ) so the advantage  of fac air usually comes as a  flatter trajectory and increased long range accuracy  .

A 16 fpe .22 will give neither over a sub 12 .177 .

 

[gmm243]

54 minutes ago, spanj said:

Do you have fac already as I doubt the air gun licence will allow a 1 for 1 (admittedly I know nothing about the air gun licence)

Yes,all guns in Northern Ireland have to be on an FAC.Have held one for over 30 years.As all air guns are in the same band you can do a one on/one off with zero hassle.

[Stonepark]

51 minutes ago, gmm243 said:

Does anyone have any experience with this gun at this power?I would think a 12ft/lb gun would be nicer to shoot but does the extra power equate to poorer accuracy?I remember shooting an air rifle of my brothers which was about 24ft/lb which had an awful twang when fired, very poor grouping and was pretty useless over all.

 

Don't want to buy a dud and could wait on for a 12ft/lb rifle to come available in time if that was the advice given.

Also do these guns shoot well out of the box?I don't have anyone near that would be able to do any work to it so it will be shot in it's original.

HW97 were designed to operate around the 15ftlb to 16ftlb mark but derated for UK import to sub 12ftlbs to comply with our laws, so there should be no issue with the gun for shooting or accuracy.

 

They used to shoot out the box fine but, I would always strip, clean and lube a new springer to ensure no swarth or anything accidentally left over from manufacture and stop dieseling which they used to suffer from due to over oiling on leaving factory.

 

Power wise 16ftlbs at muzzle means 12ftlbs at 40 yards and that is where the advantage lies over a sub 12ftlb gun.

[gmm243]

18 minutes ago, Ultrastu said:

16 fpe isn't really any great advantage in .22 cal 

A 16 grn pellet would be around 675 fps (slower than a heavy .177 pellet in sub 12 ) 

A lighter 13.4 grn pellet goes around 730 fps  .

So not much faster .

Airgun pellets don't have any great super stopping power until you get to .25 cal at 40 fpe (in my opinion  ) so the advantage  of fac air usually comes as a  flatter trajectory and increased long range accuracy  .

A 16 fpe .22 will give neither over a sub 12 .177 .

 

Thanks.

I know that all guns are different but would you think that (in theory) this power of gun would be accurate to 40m or so?Admittedly I know very little about air rifles but would be used for mostly plinking and a bit of vermin control.

I don't want anything that is so overly powered that it affects the performance. 

9 minutes ago, Stonepark said:

HW97 were designed to operate around the 15ftlb to 16ftlb mark but derated for UK import to sub 12ftlbs to comply with our laws, so there should be no issue with the gun for shooting or accuracy.

 

They used to shoot out the box fine but, I would always strip, clean and lube a new springer to ensure no swarth or anything accidentally left over from manufacture and stop dieseling which they used to suffer from due to over oiling on leaving factory.

 

Power wise 16ftlbs at muzzle means 12ftlbs at 40 yards and that is where the advantage lies over a sub 12ftlb gun.

Thank you,I wondered if that was the case.

As we are not restricted in power here this rifle would then be as it was originally when it left the factory?I didn't think that they would be produced at a certain power if they were not able to perform at that power but you never know.

[Ultrastu]

In my limited experience  with hw 97 s .

They can certainly  twang a fair amount and the plastic stocked versions even more so .they feel very front heavy and the hollow rear shifts the weight forward .

Every spring gun is different and there can be great and terrible ones that look identical  .

I'd certainly  want to shoot it first before  buying it . I wouldn't say that 16 fpe is too much for a hw 97 .in .22  and it could be a really nice gun to shoot  but I wouldn't expect any great things over a sub 12 in either calibre  ..

A 16 fpe .177 though could be a different matter ,  the pellet would be going around 900 - 930 fps  flattening the trajectory  and as long as the accuracy  is there  straight shooting out to 50 yds is nice .

[old'un]

2 hours ago, ditchman said:

the HW 97 factory spec is sold as sub 12ft/lbs...........so i suggest the one you are interested in has been tampered with...different spring and guts.........the HW range are very easy to retro fit and put over the 12ft/lbs limit...........being a very heavy air rifle the accuaracy should still be good if over 12ft/lbs

from what I understand about springers, putting a powerful/stronger spring in the gun will not increase the power of the gun, something to-do with air volume, willing to be corrected if I have read this wrong.

[ditchman]

1 hour ago, old'un said:

from what I understand about springers, putting a powerful/stronger spring in the gun will not increase the power of the gun, something to-do with air volume, willing to be corrected if I have read this wrong.

you are parcially right..............i have retro fitted many air rifles and taken thousands of readings.......the volumn of the air is the limiting factor.....but putting a stronger spring in will increase the compression temp' thus the expansion....but you will get to a point where it starts to get less.....strength of the spring is a result of the thickness of the coil steel.....the thicker the coil steel  the more volumn it needs to store that energy............this is what is called "coil bound"...the rifle will not cock....so you see what starts to happen

tuned air rifles concentrate on reducing the drag (wasted energy)...by modifying the piston...polishing the chamber...changing the seal..adjusting the trigger...and choosing a spring and lubricant that will work in harmony with all this..........

[bruno22rf]

You will also suffer more recoil that may effect accuracy, more wear on the cocking system and more speed on your piston means more frictional loss, doubling the strength of the spring will not double the power of the Rifle. An interesting fact is that to double the speed of a vehicle by increasing power alone requires approx 8 times the power, learned that at school many (too) years ago.

[ditchman]

17 minutes ago, bruno22rf said:

You will also suffer more recoil that may effect accuracy, more wear on the cocking system and more speed on your piston means more frictional loss, doubling the strength of the spring will not double the power of the Rifle. An interesting fact is that to double the speed of a vehicle by increasing power alone requires approx 8 times the power, learned that at school many (too) years ago.

quite right....immense ammount of damage can be done if the gun is not designed for it..........i believe target air rifles run at about 7ft/lbs !!

[Chaz25]

16 I would say is not too much for a springer it will of course have a harsher recoil impulse and load the parts more but if built for it, it should cope well enough and the German kit is heavy built, accuracy should still be good but hold sensitivity would I think be more so and stock creep more of a problem so you may have to fettle more, really be nice to try it first accuracy should be fine but you may loath the recoil.

Edited September 18, 2021 by Chaz25

[ditchman]

9 minutes ago, Chaz25 said:

16 I would say is not too much for a springer it will of course have a harsher recoil impulse and load the parts more but if built for it, it should cope well enough and the German kit is heavy built, accuracy should still be good but hold sensitivity would I think be more so and stock creep more of a problem so you may have to fettle more, really be nice to try it first accuracy should be fine but you may loath the recoil.

i agree............i believe the HW range was built to run more than 12ft/lbs

[GingerCat]

Rumour has it there was a bsa Mercury knocking about Norfolk that could teach Elon musk a thing or 2 about tuning and ballistics. Know anything about it ditchy?

[ditchman]

1 hour ago, GingerCat said:

Rumour has it there was a bsa Mercury knocking about Norfolk that could teach Elon musk a thing or 2 about tuning and ballistics. Know anything about it ditchy?

ask whitebridges............mine is all wrapped up and disassembled.......when i move i will start work on a new design of piston and a seal made of a material no-one has ever used,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

they are very easy to put well over the limit with the wrong spring....but will easily shake to bits as a result.....what im looking for is the weakest spring possible to achieve the 12ft/lbs........

 

watch this space

[GingerCat]

I can't wait for the 30 pager thats coming. 

[Stonepark]

3 hours ago, ditchman said:

ask whitebridges............mine is all wrapped up and disassembled.......when i move i will start work on a new design of piston and a seal made of a material no-one has ever used,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

they are very easy to put well over the limit with the wrong spring....but will easily shake to bits as a result.....what im looking for is the weakest spring possible to achieve the 12ft/lbs........

 

watch this space

Try a Titan XS no10 spring instead of a No1.

[spanj]

On 18/09/2021 at 14:31, gmm243 said:

Yes,all guns in Northern Ireland have to be on an FAC.Have held one for over 30 years.As all air guns are in the same band you can do a one on/one off with zero hassle.

Cheers for that, every days a school day 😂 Thought you may have been one of wee krankies subjects

[ditchman]

On 18/09/2021 at 14:31, gmm243 said:

Yes,all guns in Northern Ireland have to be on an FAC.Have held one for over 30 years.As all air guns are in the same band you can do a one on/one off with zero hassle.

never knew that........every day is a school day 

[Chaz25]

I kind of took it that a stronger spring just lets peak pressure transfer more/better due to less bounce back from the high pressure cushion at the cylinder wall?

[ditchman]

33 minutes ago, Chaz25 said:

I kind of took it that a stronger spring just lets peak pressure transfer more/better due to less bounce back from the high pressure cushion at the cylinder wall?

if you expect people to start answering questions like that ........this thread will go stupid............there have been bibles written on air rifles......it will become as complicated as you want it...

less is more 

Edited September 19, 2021 by ditchman

[Chaz25]

6 hours ago, ditchman said:

if you expect people to start answering questions like that ........this thread will go stupid............there have been bibles written on air rifles......it will become as complicated as you want it...

less is more 

Just throwing out interesting things about how they work....thing is I am fascinated how a simple system is complicated.....also must be why I like women!

But ok lets keep it simple, pull the trigger an twang, crack and if aimed right splat! maybe thud!.. 😁

[ditchman]

6 hours ago, Chaz25 said:

Just throwing out interesting things about how they work....thing is I am fascinated how a simple system is complicated.....also must be why I like women!

But ok lets keep it simple, pull the trigger an twang, crack and if aimed right splat! maybe thud!.. 😁

'bout sums it up 

[Cannon]

My 97KT came in at just under 18ft/lbs from the factory. After having It tuned by Sandwell Fieldsports, it came back at just over 15ft/lbs. There was a noticeable increase in smoothness, but the accuracy basically stayed the same. Both the original and tuned versions were able to group at less than 1/2" at 25 meters, but the tuned version was better to shoot and felt more refined overall.