Cock Pheasant Required Pellet Energy

[wymberley]

1 hour ago, enfieldspares said:

It won't improve anyone's shooting. That's true.

But I disagree that it's entirely useless. It'll help achieve better kills and in that sense ensure that birds that the shooter may think they've missed (as in truth they've hit them with shot with inadequate energy to penetrate to a vital spot or to break a wing bone) where if they'd used a more suitable shot size that hit would have been a killing hit or a hit that brought the bird down.

So it'll guide the individual to knowing that at fifty yards although the pattern with 1 ounce will be up to it that English #9 where lead shot is still legal to use probably isn't what's ideal for duck. That maybe a larger shot size is needed but that whilst English #BB will kill and has the energy to kill out to seventy-five yards even that with just one ounce the pattern in #BB won't be up to it.

So using his "required pellet energy" or 1 ft/lb or so the individual can decide that English #6 will have the required energy and with one ounce in a tightly choked barrel also the pattern. It won't improve shooting in making the person a better shot but it will ensure that those shots that connect with the bird bring it down.

Funny you should say that. To use the oft quoted performance figures and their reliance (energy and pattern - although mainly applicable to the latter) upon averages and to quote from the GT publication already mentioned, "is too low to satisfy the 'reasonable' expectations of an expert shot who is also a humane sportsman".

[Stonepark]

4 hours ago, enfieldspares said:

It used to be. I think, the energy that was that of an English #6 at forty five yards. I think it is in one of the Gough Thomas books? Now I can't remember at all what it is but it may be 0.75 ft/lbs, 1.5 ft/lbs or 4.5 ft/lbs. If I had to make a guess I'd say 1.5 ft/lbs?

Aha! The internet is my friend! Indeed it was 1.5 ft/lbs. I've not read G T Garwood (Gough Tomas) for maybe twenty years but these things stick in the mind. He was into his ounce of English #6 from recall? Anyway here is what I've cut and pasted from the internet:

 

I wonder where Eley might have gotten their figures..... 🤔

[enfieldspares]

On 05/01/2022 at 17:19, Ultrastu said:

This was basically  what I suspected  .

Cheers  

I like this idea  💡

Yes, I do. I tried one ounce English #4 (Hull make the load) in a 12 Bore and gave up after two drives. It was hitting birds and bringing them down but none were dead. 

[Stonepark]

1 hour ago, WalkedUp said:

It was not fit for the dinner table.

Knowing the bruising no3's cause to geese, I would not be surprised if the pheasants aren't much good for the plate either.

[London Best]

 No-one can ever guarantee to do it, but in practice the actual minimum required for a clean kill is one pellet, of any normal size, with any measurable amount of residual energy, in the birds head.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

20 minutes ago, London Best said:

 No-one can ever guarantee to do it, but in practice the actual minimum required for a clean kill is one pellet, of any normal size, with any measurable amount of residual energy, in the birds head.

Careful, the guys who shoot extreme pheasant will start to use .17" HMR or .22" RF

[wymberley]

2 hours ago, Scully said:

I disagree. There are simply too many variables at play when shooting live quarry, for anyone to state that if they had a heavier load delivering a heavier pellet, they wouldn’t have missed or just pricked, that particular bird. 
All the individual needs to know is which cartridge is suitable for the type of live quarry they have planned, and not the pellet energy within that particular cartridge. Someone else has already done the work. 

Yep. No need to actually KNOW anything, just use this:

 

[Scully]

2 minutes ago, wymberley said:

Yep. No need to actually KNOW anything, just use this:

 

You don’t even need that Wymberley. I for years bought an Eley diary, just to use as a diary, I can’t ever recall using any of its charts. 
If you want a good cartridge for breaking clays, choose a good quality trap cartridge; you don’t need to know how many pellets are in it nor the striking energy of those pellets. Same applies to a game cartridge. 
Whenever I have introduced anyone to shooting, child or adult, it has never once entered my head to advise them to study ballistic charts comprising of shot size, weight of charge, the striking energy of various pellets at ANY given range, ballistic gel tables or any of that superfluous and irrelevant  information just not needed to improve their shooting. 
What I have done however, is teach them about the basic principles of gun safety, footwork, stance, mount and various types of swing. All that is required from then on, is choosing cartridges suitable for your intended shooting, and a lifetime of practice. 

[London Best]

6 minutes ago, Scully said:

You don’t even need that Wymberley. I for years bought an Eley diary, just to use as a diary, I can’t ever recall using any of its charts. 
If you want a good cartridge for breaking clays, choose a good quality trap cartridge; you don’t need to know how many pellets are in it nor the striking energy of those pellets. Same applies to a game cartridge. 
Whenever I have introduced anyone to shooting, child or adult, it has never once entered my head to advise them to study ballistic charts comprising of shot size, weight of charge, the striking energy of various pellets at ANY given range, ballistic gel tables or any of that superfluous and irrelevant  information just not needed to improve their shooting. 
What I have done however, is teach them about the basic principles of gun safety, footwork, stance, mount and various types of swing. All that is required from then on, is choosing cartridges suitable for your intended shooting, and a lifetime of practice. 

Correct.

All that stuff is not essential knowledge. 
It is just a related interest, which for some people becomes an obsession.

[wymberley]

10 minutes ago, Scully said:

You don’t even need that Wymberley. I for years bought an Eley diary, just to use as a diary, I can’t ever recall using any of its charts. 
If you want a good cartridge for breaking clays, choose a good quality trap cartridge; you don’t need to know how many pellets are in it nor the striking energy of those pellets. Same applies to a game cartridge. 
Whenever I have introduced anyone to shooting, child or adult, it has never once entered my head to advise them to study ballistic charts comprising of shot size, weight of charge, the striking energy of various pellets at ANY given range, ballistic gel tables or any of that superfluous and irrelevant  information just not needed to improve their shooting. 
What I have done however, is teach them about the basic principles of gun safety, footwork, stance, mount and various types of swing. All that is required from then on, is choosing cartridges suitable for your intended shooting, and a lifetime of practice. 

To be honest, that doesn't sound like an activity that I'd be interested in partaking in.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

18 minutes ago, Scully said:

You don’t even need that Wymberley. I for years bought an Eley diary, just to use as a diary, I can’t ever recall using any of its charts. 
If you want a good cartridge for breaking clays, choose a good quality trap cartridge; you don’t need to know how many pellets are in it nor the striking energy of those pellets. Same applies to a game cartridge. 
Whenever I have introduced anyone to shooting, child or adult, it has never once entered my head to advise them to study ballistic charts comprising of shot size, weight of charge, the striking energy of various pellets at ANY given range, ballistic gel tables or any of that superfluous and irrelevant  information just not needed to improve their shooting. 
What I have done however, is teach them about the basic principles of gun safety, footwork, stance, mount and various types of swing. All that is required from then on, is choosing cartridges suitable for your intended shooting, and a lifetime of practice. 

 

10 minutes ago, London Best said:

Correct.

All that stuff is not essential knowledge. 
It is just a related interest, which for some people becomes an obsession.

 

[Scully]

35 minutes ago, wymberley said:

To be honest, that doesn't sound like an activity that I'd be interested in partaking in.

Fair enough entirely. Each to their own. 👍

[enfieldspares]

1 hour ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Careful, the guys who shoot extreme pheasant will start to use .17" HMR or .22" RF

Robert Churchill in fact made a few such. Side by side .22LR (fully rifled barrles) shotguns. Not double rifles as they had no such sights only a rib and bead. One projectile being the ultimate choke. They were for duck hunters wanting to "pass shoot" duck at one hundred yards plus. 

Edited January 9, 2022 by enfieldspares

[London Best]

59 minutes ago, wymberley said:

To be honest, that doesn't sound like an activity that I'd be interested in partaking in.

With respect, and I do mean that, do you or have you ever done any actual shooting?

[Agriv8]

4 hours ago, WalkedUp said:

My friend was picking up recently and a dog had brought in a mangled woodcock. It was an unexpected addition to the bag and had been shot with the 38g n°3 full choke the gun had been using on the tall pheasants. It was not fit for the dinner table.

You can have too much as easily as too little. A mid weight 28-30g of 5 or 6 shot will do pretty much any situation. Steel loads will vary. 

30 g no 6 early doors moving onto no 5 when they start asking for clearance to land at local Airports! 
 

Agriv8

 

[London Best]

45 minutes ago, Agriv8 said:

30 g no 6 early doors moving onto no 5 when they start asking for clearance to land at local Airports! 
 

Agriv8

 

But the THEORY says that 30g no6 is effective further than 30g no5 because the no5 pattern fails earlier.

Sorry, Agriv8, I just could not resist.

[Old farrier]

2 minutes ago, London Best said:

But the THEORY says that 30g no6 is effective further than 30g no5 because the no5 pattern fails earlier.

Sorry, Agriv8, I just could not resist.

Not if you up it to 32 grams 

[London Best]

1 minute ago, Old farrier said:

Not if you up it to 32 grams 

Fair enough, but that’s not what he said, and I was only being funny anyway.

Actually, 32g no5 still has about forty less pellets than 30g no6..........

[Walker570]

2 hours ago, London Best said:

Correct.

All that stuff is not essential knowledge. 
It is just a related interest, which for some people becomes an obsession.

Correct

1 minute ago, London Best said:

Fair enough, but that’s not what he said, and I was only being funny anyway.

Actually, 32g no5 still has about forty less pellets than 30g no6..........

....and if it is in the pattern it will not notice the difference.

[wymberley]

1 hour ago, London Best said:

With respect, and I do mean that, do you or have you ever done any actual shooting?

Good question.

Nothing to write home about and because of the arthritis, my blasted ticker, coupled to a serious shortage of pigeon, I've not done too much in the past couple of years.

Started off on the rabbit when it was still OK to walk past the bank and post-office with the gun under your arm, broken if appropriate. In fact the only comments I ever got were a little later when having shown the barman 'clear' I stood the gun by the public bar door when I was 'nearly' old enough and that was simply had I had any luck.

Got interrupted while I did the Trenchard Brat bit and again later on while I was in Aden and then again on my first visit to Germany.

Came back to Moray and had some good fun on Findhorn and the grouse moors for hare. Best bit though because it was just down the road were the partridge and rabbit at Milltown. Also driven - walk/stand - on Lossiemouth.

Back to Germany, this time single and filled me boots. Rabbit on the airfield and golf course then driven birds as a guest of the local German Hunting Association.

Back to Norfolk where it all got somewhat frenzied. Selected as one of the first BASC Hon. Education Officers to run the Proficiency Award Scheme in Norfolk and then a little later, one of the first BASC Sporting Shotgun Shooting Coaches. However, the call of Devon became too strong to resist.

So home I went to where Father was already shooting and tagged along. There was an incident involving two foxes and several hundred free range laying hens - the foxes both dead within 20 minutes of me being told about them. This resulted a little while later when 2 small syndicates knocked it on the head on the estate land which the farmer tenanted  and which he then had those rights put on his tenancy agreement for my benefit as a thank you. Knees now shot so I called it quits for the game - well not totally, but you don't need to know about that - and the farmer now rents the shooting - touch the pigeon and you're off out of it - out to a small syndicate.

So, yep, done a bit.

[London Best]

6 minutes ago, wymberley said:

Good question.

Nothing to write home about and because of the arthritis, my blasted ticker, coupled to a serious shortage of pigeon, I've not done too much in the past couple of years.

Started off on the rabbit when it was still OK to walk past the bank and post-office with the gun under your arm, broken if appropriate. In fact the only comments I ever got were a little later when having shown the barman 'clear' I stood the gun by the public bar door when I was 'nearly' old enough and that was simply had I had any luck.

Got interrupted while I did the Trenchard Brat bit and again later on while I was in Aden and then again on my first visit to Germany.

Came back to Moray and had some good fun on Findhorn and the grouse moors for hare. Best bit though because it was just down the road were the partridge and rabbit at Milltown. Also driven - walk/stand - on Lossiemouth.

Back to Germany, this time single and filled me boots. Rabbit on the airfield and golf course then driven birds as a guest of the local German Hunting Association.

Back to Norfolk where it all got somewhat frenzied. Selected as one of the first BASC Hon. Education Officers to run the Proficiency Award Scheme in Norfolk and then a little later, one of the first BASC Sporting Shotgun Shooting Coaches. However, the call of Devon became too strong to resist.

So home I went to where Father was already shooting and tagged along. There was an incident involving two foxes and several hundred free range laying hens - the foxes both dead within 20 minutes of me being told about them. This resulted a little while later when 2 small syndicates knocked it on the head on the estate land which the farmer tenanted  and which he then had those rights put on his tenancy agreement for my benefit as a thank you. Knees now shot so I called it quits for the game - well not totally, but you don't need to know about that - and the farmer now rents the shooting - touch the pigeon and you're off out of it - out to a small syndicate.

So, yep, done a bit.

Lovely. All good stuff. 
So why so pedantic with the theory side?

edit to say, sorry to hear about your ongoing health issues.

Edited January 9, 2022 by London Best

[Scully]

12 minutes ago, wymberley said:

Good question.

Nothing to write home about and because of the arthritis, my blasted ticker, coupled to a serious shortage of pigeon, I've not done too much in the past couple of years.

Started off on the rabbit when it was still OK to walk past the bank and post-office with the gun under your arm, broken if appropriate. In fact the only comments I ever got were a little later when having shown the barman 'clear' I stood the gun by the public bar door when I was 'nearly' old enough and that was simply had I had any luck.

Got interrupted while I did the Trenchard Brat bit and again later on while I was in Aden and then again on my first visit to Germany.

Came back to Moray and had some good fun on Findhorn and the grouse moors for hare. Best bit though because it was just down the road were the partridge and rabbit at Milltown. Also driven - walk/stand - on Lossiemouth.

Back to Germany, this time single and filled me boots. Rabbit on the airfield and golf course then driven birds as a guest of the local German Hunting Association.

Back to Norfolk where it all got somewhat frenzied. Selected as one of the first BASC Hon. Education Officers to run the Proficiency Award Scheme in Norfolk and then a little later, one of the first BASC Sporting Shotgun Shooting Coaches. However, the call of Devon became too strong to resist.

So home I went to where Father was already shooting and tagged along. There was an incident involving two foxes and several hundred free range laying hens - the foxes both dead within 20 minutes of me being told about them. This resulted a little while later when 2 small syndicates knocked it on the head on the estate land which the farmer tenanted  and which he then had those rights put on his tenancy agreement for my benefit as a thank you. Knees now shot so I called it quits for the game - well not totally, but you don't need to know about that - and the farmer now rents the shooting - touch the pigeon and you're off out of it - out to a small syndicate.

So, yep, done a bit.

Good for you, sounds fascinating. 

[Agriv8]

8 minutes ago, London Best said:

But the THEORY says that 30g no6 is effective further than 30g no5 because the no5 pattern fails earlier.

Sorry, Agriv8, I just could not resist.

London best - just as we all have our preferred shell we all have our preferred load for certain situation i ain’t going to tell anyone else how they should shoot of what they should use. 

Never pattern plated a game load so will keep our of the failing pattern discussion- but the same gun was smoking clays edge on to 45 + yard 28g 8 shot through 3/4 and full recon I could have got this past  55 easily if a presentation was available! But without the orange cloud .
 

 

[London Best]

7 minutes ago, Agriv8 said:

London best - just as we all have our preferred shell we all have our preferred load for certain situation i ain’t going to tell anyone else how they should shoot of what they should use. 

 

 

Couldn’t agree more.

[Agriv8]

18 minutes ago, London Best said:

Fair enough, but that’s not what he said, and I was only being funny anyway.

Actually, 32g no5 still has about forty less pellets than 30g no6..........

Ps - just to add I know and it’s fantastic that there are many on this forum I have never met but who’s wisdom I will read and take note off !
 

to add I Recon  a couple of those forty extra that are the stray pellets that do the business and save my blushes
 

my shooting training has always been around safety and respect for one quarry. 
 

Agriv8