Putin announces 'military operation' in Ukraine.

[Mungler]

18 minutes ago, mchughcb said:

You can't see it? Look harder.

I'll give you a hint how's things in Crimea for last 8 years or Chechnya for last 10 years? Rebuilt, huge infrastructure investments and peace. Compare that to Kabul where NATO was after 20 years.

 

Yeah and whatever anyone says about Hitler, at least the Nazis dressed nicely and the trains ran on time.

 

[mchughcb]

Mussolini got the trains to run on time.

It's getting weird now. Luke Skywalker has been contacted.

 

 

[Rewulf]

53 minutes ago, Mungler said:

Blimey there's been some nonsense on this page. Yeah yeah it's all NATO's fault boo hoo and it would be over sooner (with a Russian victory) if all support of Ukraine was withdrawn.

Im glad youre happy the death tolls getting higher, more civilians killed , and more Ukrainian infrastructure is being destroyed.
Good to see you dont worry about the financial cost either, the knock on effects of this could easily make the covid bill look silly, as long as we sock it to Sauron and his evil empire, it doesnt matter right ?

Ill be honest , I dont care if Vlad or Vlod  gets a bullet , if we are all honest with ourselves, no one REALLY cares about Ukraine unless you live there, we can all pretend that we're concerned, but the only thing that keeps it in our minds is the constant media reports, if they stopped , you would forget Ukraine existed within a week, just like we all used to.

If any leaders in the west TRULY cared about stopping the slaughter, and the economic cataclysm brewing, they would drag Vlad and Vlod to the negotiating table, and work out a compromise, a way forward.
But not a hint of anything of the sort ?
They say that the US is happy for them to  fight against Russia to the last Ukrainian , they said it tongue in cheek originally, Im beginning to wonder now.

Now Im going to save you some time here , while you tell me how Im deluded, a Putin sympathiser and all that , but the crux is , you will question WHY Ukraine needs to negotiate.
Its because they are approaching the areas of Ukraine that have been either annexed originally, or the separatist areas that have been largely independent these last 8 years, these people are now fighting for their territory, not someone elses.
Russia will defend these areas far more violently , and with even more retaliatory measures should there be a threat of losing them.
You may well have heard how Ukraine is pushing ahead , with few losses, and being virtually unopposed, the truth is , Ukraine is finding this offensive very costly in men and equipment, to the point where they are filming columns of their own burning vehicles, and saying they are Russian.

3 minutes ago, Mungler said:

 

Yeah and whatever anyone says about Hitler, at least the Nazis dressed nicely and the trains ran on time.

 

Do I sense some admiration there ?

[JohnfromUK]

33 minutes ago, mchughcb said:

I'll give you a hint how's things in Crimea for last 8 years or Chechnya for last 10 years? Rebuilt, huge infrastructure investments and peace.

and of course totalitarian dictatorship.  No thanks.

[mchughcb]

That region has been conquered by various regimes for years followed by peace. If your history starts in March 2022 like Mungler then I understand how you feel. If your history starts a decade earlier then you might understand how the people who live there may have a different view.

[Mungler]

19 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Im glad youre happy the death tolls getting higher, more civilians killed , and more Ukrainian infrastructure is being destroyed.

 

What a bizarre thing to say. Where have I expressed happiness with the death toll?

Indeed, I am neither happy nor responsible for the death toll on either side. Newsflash neither is NATO and it's not NATO dropping big unguided bombs into the civilian areas of Ukraine.

You just can't bring yourself to say Putin is responsible can you? Odd that. Blame everyone else though. Boring and odd.

This ends tomorrow with Russia withdrawing. Trying starting with that and working backwards as to how that is brought about.

[Stonepark]

2 hours ago, oowee said:

Trump has never spoken sense. There is a peace deal on the table. 

The previous peace deal on the table previously in March was Ukraine gives up all claims to Crimea, Donetsk and Luhansk and does not join NATO. They threw it back in Russia's face.

The current acceptable peace deal is Ukraine gives up all claims to Crimea, Luhansk, Donetsk, Kherson and Zaporizhia, doesn't join NATO or the EU and signs a non aggression treaty with Russia.

The next peace deal will be Ukraine gives up all of the above, plus probably Odessa and Kharkov, entire government resigns with new elections, agrees to a non-agression treaty with Russia, gives up all rights to joining EU and NATO and does not step out of line in the future.

Ukraine will only negotiate when it is given permission by USA\West to do so and the West will not negotiate until Ukraine has demonstratably lost the war and the country and people are shattered.

[Stonepark]

18 minutes ago, Mungler said:

Indeed, I am neither happy nor responsible for the death toll on either side. Newsflash neither is NATO and it's not NATO dropping big unguided bombs into the civilian areas of Ukraine.

You just can't bring yourself to say Putin is responsible can you? Odd that. Blame everyone else though. Boring and odd.

This ends tomorrow with Russia withdrawing. Trying starting with that and working backwards as to how that is brought about.

The war would have been over months ago had NATO not supplied Ukraine with arms, so it is at least partially directly at fault. Ukraine has in numerous categories lost 100%+ of its large military systems, which had they not been replaced from elsewhere would have resulted in capitulation some time in summer.

This all comes back to the huge fact you refuse to acknowledge that if the West had not engineered a coup in Ukraine in 2014, Ukraine would have continued to be best friends with Russia and there would have been no seceded regions, civil war and therefore no Special Military Operation.

Until Ukraine comes to the negotiating table this will keep going and the longer they leave it the worse the terms will be for them as per my other answer.

Edited October 11, 2022 by Stonepark

[Mungler]

15 minutes ago, Stonepark said:

The war would have been over months ago had NATO not supplied Ukraine with arms

Are you bonkers?

Seriously, you type the words out but there's an impenetrable rational disconnect with all the Putin shills where the words appear on the page but there's no rational thought to their meaning.

"The boxing fight would have been over a lot quicker had he not put his fists up and defended himself."

The war would not have started had Putin not invaded and it would be over soonest when he withdraws military from Ukraine. That's a better place to start. Go mad, try that on for size before suggesting Ukraine and the World should have just rolled over to Putin.

But, no, not in topsey turvey land where it's not and never can be Putin's fault for invading a non threatening neighbor.

Lastly, you make out it's all in Ukraine's best interests to capitulate now. In the balance sheet of Putin's war he's down a lot of expensive kit, people, sanctions and global standing. It's all planned though. He's a great strategist.

You should be on the Russian version of Pigeon Watch trying to convince the Russians to capitulate and withdraw - that would be a better use of your time.

 

 

[Rewulf]

42 minutes ago, Mungler said:

You just can't bring yourself to say Putin is responsible can you? Odd that. Blame everyone else though. Boring and odd.

Putin is responsible for starting the invasion , never said he wasnt, OK?

The west bears some responsibility for the continuation of it , theyve stated clearly the aim is to weaken Russia, can YOU admit that ?

[timps]

25 minutes ago, Stonepark said:

This all comes back to the huge fact you refuse to acknowledge that if the West had not engineered a coup in Ukraine in 2014, Ukraine would have continued to be best friends with Russia and there would have been no seceded regions, civil war and therefore no Special Military Operation.

The flaw in your argument that it was western engineered coup is that when Russia entered Ukraine at the behest of this oppressed population of Ukraine then surely this illegal NATO coup would then be overthrown.  All the inhabitants of Ukraine would be celebrating their freedom form the tyrannical USA and NATO coup and oppression and thank the liberating army of Russia and their Special Military Operation to save them.

Well, that was the spiel Putin told his army, unfortunately it wasn’t true, how you can blame a population for rising up against an oppressor then subsequently the aggressor trying to reinstate him is amazing.

A coup happened because the people of Ukraine willed it to happen, NATO could not engineer it without those people.

Maybe West and East Germany should exist again in your book as I'm sure the west had a hand in that as well?

[Mungler]

Just now, Rewulf said:

Putin is responsible for starting the invasion , never said he wasnt, OK?

The west bears some responsibility for the continuation of it , theyve stated clearly the aim is to weaken Russia, can YOU admit that ?

OK and yes; that's two birds with one stone - help Ukraine and weaken Russia (a weakened Russia can't roll into Finland, Poland, Estonia etc.).

[Rewulf]

Just now, Mungler said:

OK and yes; that's two birds with one stone - help Ukraine and weaken Russia (a weakened Russia can't roll into Finland, Poland, Estonia etc.).

The only time Russia has ever considered invading those countries lately , is in the fevered imagination of NATO strategists, and defence industry spin doctors.
There is nothing to gain from Russia invading ANYBODY , and that includes Ukraine.
Look elsewhere for justification for the west wanting to weaken Russia , its black , sticky, and smells , and Russia has too much of it.

[Rewulf]

6 minutes ago, timps said:

A coup happened because the people of Ukraine willed it to happen, NATO could not engineer it without those people.

The coup happened because the US had been pumping USAID money into western Ukraine for 20 years .
The students that started Maidan, had never known anything different , they wanted McDonalds and Netflix , so when it seemed that Yanukovic was going to reject this new found western money tree, along with even more EU money that came with membership, they were deeply unhappy about it....

The US embassy freely admitted they were 'donating' $1million a day into the protestors coffers, which seems excessive when you consider there was no more than 10,000 protestors at any one time .
Next thing far right groups appeared with guns....And it all got a bit messy.
Where they got the guns from is a mystery, it was said they raided an armoury, it must have been well stocked, as the army and police high tailed it out of dodge.

Did the west 'buy a coup' ?
It wouldnt be the first time , and it certainly wont be the last.

[oowee]

1 hour ago, Stonepark said:

The previous peace deal on the table previously in March was Ukraine gives up all claims to Crimea, Donetsk and Luhansk and does not join NATO. They threw it back in Russia's face.

The current acceptable peace deal is Ukraine gives up all claims to Crimea, Luhansk, Donetsk, Kherson and Zaporizhia, doesn't join NATO or the EU and signs a non aggression treaty with Russia.

The next peace deal will be Ukraine gives up all of the above, plus probably Odessa and Kharkov, entire government resigns with new elections, agrees to a non-agression treaty with Russia, gives up all rights to joining EU and NATO and does not step out of line in the future.

Ukraine will only negotiate when it is given permission by USA\West to do so and the West will not negotiate until Ukraine has demonstratably lost the war and the country and people are shattered.

Ukraine peace deal is on the table. It will take a while longer before Putin or maybe Russia accepts it. 

[Mungler]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

There is nothing to gain from Russia invading ANYBODY , and that includes Ukraine.
 

 

I reckon the reason is because they thought it was going to be an easy land grab, but who knows why because we’ve had some weird and whacky reasons and nothing definitive.

But they did and that’s all that matters.

To suggest that the Russian invasion is a result of some NATO activity / inactivity is demonstrably and factually incorrect.

[welsh1]

Russia invaded and started a war, no one else started it they are solely to blame.
Russia can end this war straight away all they have to do is leave the country they invaded.

It's really that simple.

If you break into my house i am going to evict you by any means nessesary, i am not going to negotiate with you, you were not invited in, you are not welcome and you are going to leave.

 

[Mungler]

18 minutes ago, welsh1 said:

If you break into my house i am going to evict you by any means nessesary, i am not going to negotiate with you, you were not invited in, you are not welcome and you are going to leave.

 

….and if the bloke from one road up offers to help throw you out, well that help will be gratefully received.

[ditchman]

20 minutes ago, Mungler said:

….and if the bloke from one road up offers to help throw you out, well that help will be gratefully received.

and then the old bill  (NATO) turn up with the COHR's...and say ...wooooowww slow down there pal ...this criminal has rights you know......

[Rewulf]

57 minutes ago, welsh1 said:

Russia invaded and started a war, no one else started it they are solely to blame

You seem to have left out the bit where there was already a war goin on in Ukraine, 20,000 dead Ukrainians, mostly civilians. 

Who started that one? 

 

[Mungler]

Just now, Rewulf said:

You seem to have left out the bit where there was already a war goin on in Ukraine, 20,000 dead Ukrainians, mostly civilians. 

Who started that one? 

 

Pretty sure that the Russian tanks, cruise missiles and unguided soviet era rockets and missiles into civilian areas has helped.

And that figure of 20,000 you just made up 😆

 

[timps]

3 hours ago, Rewulf said:

The coup happened because the US had been pumping USAID money into western Ukraine for 20 years .

And as I said there must have been people in Ukraine that wanted to happen and are prepared to fight the Russians now.
 

You can’t buy a coup if no one is prepared to fight for it, just look at  Afghanistan. 
 

 

[Rewulf]

13 minutes ago, Mungler said:

And that figure of 20,000 you just made up

My apologies, it was from memory, it's 15,000 dead, 4000 of those civilians of both sides, triple that number wounded, and around a 100 missing. 

Not an insignificant number, and not a squeak from the west about it. 

4 minutes ago, timps said:

 

You can’t buy a coup if no one is prepared to fight for it, just look at  Afghanistan

You'll be telling me next no one will fight, and arrange for governments to be removed for money 😂

[welsh1]

26 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

You seem to have left out the bit where there was already a war goin on in Ukraine, 20,000 dead Ukrainians, mostly civilians. 

Who started that one? 

 

So just because that was going on you think it's ok for russia to invade and slaughter ukranians?
Warped logic you have there.

I will keep saying it, russia against all international laws invaded another country illegally, if they leave then that war will stop, it's simple isn't it.
They were not welcomed, they were not wanted, and they will be fought against until they leave the country they illegally invaded.

[timps]

28 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

You'll be telling me next no one will fight, and arrange for governments to be removed for money

So everyone in  Ukraine  is fighting for money, McDonalds and Netflix?

I was under the impression Russia  and Ukraine  had them all before the invasion my mistake.

I was replying to stonepark who was intimating that NATO started this by engineering the coup. So I take it that you now think that NATO  are the aggressors and Putin is not which seems at odds with your other post?
 

I stand by my point the people of Ukraine wanted this freedom hence why they are prepared to fight for it.

Edited October 11, 2022 by timps