Putin announces 'military operation' in Ukraine.

[Mungler]

22 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

This takes a bit of swallowing.
Whilst our media would have us believe that Russia is some kind of NK style concentration camp for its citizens , no contact with the outside world , and only state controlled news...
Believe it or not, this is fantasy.
There are hundreds of thousands of Russian holiday makers out and about in Europe, Turkey ect , pretty much anywhere we can go, they can, shockingly, they can access the internet the same as we can, sometimes they have to use VPNs , but the fact remains , they arent 'blind' to whats really going on, yes they have state controlled news  that trumpets the governments position, but so do we !
But most shocking of all, you can actually talk to Russians in the flesh and on social media, YES they have social media, you might find they dont need state mind control to disagree with whats happening in Ukraine.

Its just theres little they can do about it, just as we have no say in what our government does.
The ridiculous notion that we are free, and they are not, needs putting to bed.

If anything its our own governments that conspire to make this a reality, and keep them there, by rescinding Russian travel visas.
You would think the more that can travel out, the more we can liberate from the yoke of soviet oppression !

https://radiogdansk.pl/english-service/2022/08/23/polish-deputy-fm-calls-for-more-restrictions-on-tourist-visas-for-russians-four-more-ships-carrying-food-depart-ukraine-polish-director-on-longlist-for-european-film-awards-special-broadcasts-th/

This map is serviced by the Ukrainians, and is updated regularly, it tells a sorry story of how much the Ukrainians are struggling against Russian firepower.

https://liveuamap.com/

There you go again with your balanced critique of how all the Russians live free and it is we in the west are held captive and fed untrue propaganda 24/7.

The thing is, we do get to have elections and even had a vote on leaving Europe which the political elite rather wished we hadn’t.

Indeed we can be rude and critical of our rulers without fear of Chepiga and Mishkin doing one of their infamous murder suicide numbers or our being sent without a fair trial to a Labour camp for a decade. 

I do love your version of balance - you must be adding extra floors and a pool to your Dacha 😆

Incidentally, before covid I visited cyprus and saw lots of spray murals of Putin on the pavements at the street corners. According to the Russians we spoke to, that was Putin / the FSB letting all the Russians who were temporarily out of the country on business or on holiday know that Ol Vlad was still watching them. 

I didn’t see a mural of Boris or Theresa May out there 😆

[Rewulf]

13 minutes ago, Mungler said:

There you go again with your balanced critique of how all the Russians live free and it is we in the west are held captive and fed untrue propaganda 24/7.

Im pretty sure thats not what I said 

 

15 minutes ago, Mungler said:

The thing is, we do get to have elections and even had a vote on leaving Europe which the political elite rather wished we hadn’t.

Indeed we can be rude and critical of our rulers without fear of Chepiga and Mishkin doing one of their infamous murder suicide numbers or our being sent without a fair trial to a Labour camp for a decade. 

We have an illusion of democracy, they have no illusion of democracy.
Im pretty certain it doesnt bother them too much in their daily lives ?
Or do they all live in constant fear of the gulag ?

17 minutes ago, Mungler said:

I do love your version of balance - you must be adding extra floors and a pool to your Dacha 😆

Ill invite you over when its done 😜

 

18 minutes ago, Mungler said:

Incidentally, before covid I visited cyprus and saw lots of spray murals of Putin on the pavements at the street corners. According to the Russians we spoke to, that was Putin / the FSB letting all the Russians who were temporarily out of the country on business or on holiday know that Ol Vlad was still watching them. 

I didn’t see a mural of Boris or Theresa May out there 😆

There are a huge number of Russians in Cyprus, they own vast tracts of land, business's , most live there permanently , and bring much needed revenue in to their fragile economy.
No doubt they are all petro dollar gangsters or Putin acolytes ?
Put it this way , Ive never seen a Vlad mural, and if the FSB are out there, painting murals to 'remind the Russians Vlads watching ' at least it keeps them from wiping novichock all over the place ect.
I think someone might have been pulling your leg 😄

[Velocette]

52 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

This takes a bit of swallowing.
Whilst our media would have us believe that Russia is some kind of NK style concentration camp for its citizens , no contact with the outside world , and only state controlled news...
Believe it or not, this is fantasy.
There are hundreds of thousands of Russian holiday makers out and about in Europe, Turkey ect , pretty much anywhere we can go, they can, shockingly, they can access the internet the same as we can, sometimes they have to use VPNs , but the fact remains , they arent 'blind' to whats really going on, yes they have state controlled news  that trumpets the governments position, but so do we !
But most shocking of all, you can actually talk to Russians in the flesh and on social media, YES they have social media, you might find they dont need state mind control to disagree with whats happening in Ukraine.

Its just theres little they can do about it, just as we have no say in what our government does.
The ridiculous notion that we are free, and they are not, needs putting to bed.

If anything its our own governments that conspire to make this a reality, and keep them there, by rescinding Russian travel visas.
You would think the more that can travel out, the more we can liberate from the yoke of soviet oppression !

https://radiogdansk.pl/english-service/2022/08/23/polish-deputy-fm-calls-for-more-restrictions-on-tourist-visas-for-russians-four-more-ships-carrying-food-depart-ukraine-polish-director-on-longlist-for-european-film-awards-special-broadcasts-th/

This map is serviced by the Ukrainians, and is updated regularly, it tells a sorry story of how much the Ukrainians are struggling against Russian firepower.

https://liveuamap.com/

This chap in Moscow seems to be able to comment on the situation without censorship and is in daily communication with fellow enthusiasts in the West.

https://sportingbookworm.wordpress.com/

[Rewulf]

3 minutes ago, Velocette said:

This chap in Moscow seems to be able to comment on the situation without censorship and is in daily communication with fellow enthusiasts in the West.

https://sportingbookworm.wordpress.com/

Jesus ! Mungler wont be having any of that ! 

Theyre allowed guns in Russia !?
Theyve got no internet, only state TV , Love Island is banned, and failure to have a framed photo of Putin on the wall results in 10 years hard labour in Siberia...

But theyre allowed GUNS !

Obviously a fake account 😜

[Mungler]

Well, unlike Rewulf that chap actually denounced Putin 😆 No Dacha for him. 

If only he could cast a vote in a free and fair election - maybe Putin wouldn’t have got in the last time or the time before that (etc) and we wouldn’t be on this thread…

[Rewulf]

19 minutes ago, Mungler said:

Well, unlike Rewulf that chap actually denounced Putin 😆 No Dacha for him. 

Must have missed that bit , where did he denounce Putin ?

He denounced the war in Ukraine 'waged by Putin and his government' 
Have I not said the war is wrong, a terrible affliction on the Ukrainian people ?
The suffering being inflicted on them is wrong on so many levels, is it happening on Putins orders ? Of course it is.

Stop twisting it round to try and wreak some kind of retribution on those that arent screaming 'Slava Ukraini !'at every opportunity, Im sick of people wearing their colours like some kind of fashion accessory.
If people were so gut wrenchingly concerned about it , they would be sending all their spare money , or jumping in the car and volunteering for front line duty in some muddy field, where Russian artillery rains down 24/7.

Not agreeing with your bleeding heart opinion , is not the same as being a paid rank within the Russian military , believe it or not.

[oowee]

 

[Rewulf]

33 minutes ago, oowee said:

 

Good assessment by Joe Bloggs as usual, but a highly misleading title.
Those who cant be bothered to hack through it, just watch the last 5 minutes.
Basically he doesnt agree with the Yale findings, but does say that (rather obviously) this war is going to hurt Russia economically.
Though I disagree with the assessment that China will dump Russia because the US tells them to ! (Ive condensed that considerably !)

This one is also worth a watch.

 

[oowee]

I watched it until talking about African countries voting against the US at :-  6.14 is it the food and fuel crisis that 'Western sanctions have triggered in Africa'?  Its simply not a plausible channel. It omits the fact that Russia is a shadow of its former power, economically, technologically, geographically. 

Its all US v's Russia and Russia is simply no longer a global player world player anymore than the UK is. Cold war 2.0 as described will be a non event unless we talk nukes and then we are all in. 

When talking about shaping the world order. There is the US, China and debatable the EU. 

[Rewulf]

24 minutes ago, oowee said:

It omits the fact that Russia is a shadow of its former power, economically, technologically, geographically. 

Sorry , but whats changed geographically, Im sure its in the same place ? 

Joking apart, economically I dont think its ever been stronger ?
https://tradingeconomics.com/russia/gdp
Without doubt , 2014 and the subsequent sanctions have hurt them , but new markets ect ....

Tech ? They can buy tech , with petro money , from China, just like everyone else does.

Power ? How do we really measure this ? Military , economic , GDP growth , how many times over they can destroy every living thing on the planet ?
Its a western concept that Russia is no longer relevant , and wishful thinking.
If someone can think of a way to remove its leadership, and disable its nuclear deterrent in one fell swoop, with a greater than 95% chance of success, then we might be talking.
But I would imagine the think tanks have been mulling that one over for years.

https://energyandcleanair.org/publication/russian-fossil-exports-first-100-days

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.MKTP.KD.ZG?locations=RU

[oowee]

There has to be a question mark over the data. In any case 1.3% of worlds gdp is smaller than Brazil. If your talking nukes then the UK and France are players how many times can we all destroy the world?

Tech.... they have no tech and China relies upon free thinking west for cutting edge to copy. 

[Rewulf]

1 minute ago, oowee said:

the UK and France are players how many times can we all destroy the world?

Not as many as Russia or Uncle Sam

1 minute ago, oowee said:

Tech.... they have no tech and China relies upon free thinking west for cutting edge to copy. 

You dont really believe that do you ?

[oowee]

Interesting comparison.

[Mungler]

No point discussing anything Russian with Rewulf - Russia does it better, bigger, faster, harder than anywhere else of course 😆 Those Dachas don’t come with swimming pools off plan.

Yes the Russians have a lot of nukes, so does NATO. Whilst I hope to never see the day, I wonder what their effective capabilities are - their little foray into the mud that is Ukraine, has without a doubt shown they’re not exactly a shining example of a well thought out and well maintained military machine 😆

[Scully]

4 minutes ago, Mungler said:

No point discussing anything Russian with Rewulf - Russia does it better, bigger, faster, harder than anywhere else of course 😆 Those Dachas don’t come with swimming pools off plan.

Yes the Russians have a lot of nukes, so does NATO. Whilst I hope to never see the day, I wonder what their effective capabilities are - their little foray into the mud that is Ukraine, has without a doubt shown they’re not exactly a shining example of a well thought out and well maintained military machine 😆

Talking of mud, it will be interesting to see how this war pans out when that notorious winter gets hold. 

[Mungler]

14 minutes ago, Scully said:

Talking of mud, it will be interesting to see how this war pans out when that notorious winter gets hold. 

And more of the Russian kit fails, fails to be re-supplied because of sanctions and so on. 

So much of the maintenance budget gets stolen in corruption, makes you wonder what works? Cannon fodder from the far reaches and inaccurate artillery apparently. 

I’d love to know the running cost is so far - warships, planes, tanks, expensive missiles etc.

[Stonepark]

It's funny how those supporting Ukraine, instead of providing factual information (or as close as you can get to it) and rationally arguing their case, instead resort to character assassination and mud slinging.... It's almost as if all they can do is repeat unquestionably what they have been told..

Rewulf may not support Russia but he is treated (as are others) as the devil incarnate for merely questioning the Ukrainian propaganda being dished out on a daily basis.

Modern Western society is plagued with a lack of critical thinking and as a result is easily manipulated, whether it is "COVID lockdowns" and the "COVID Jab", Ukraine\Russia war, "Net Zero", "Climate Change", Gender politics etc etc

It is interesting to follow the personality types who succumb are not limited to the radicals as was in the past (most people were practical and weren't bothered as long as it did not affect them, and in the past it didn't to a great extent), but with the shift in society and government to a socialist if not outright communist totalitarian point of view over many things, the majority of society is easily coerced to follow any narrative that is thrown in front of them and to ignore the truth as outright lies and propaganda, ongoing global war is necessary, the good of the state is more important than the individual.... Almost exactly the 1984 playbook in action....

[ordnance]

Quote

 

It's funny how those supporting Ukraine, instead of providing factual information (or as close as you can get to it) and rationally arguing their case, instead resort to character assassination and mud slinging.... It's almost as if all they can do is repeat unquestionably what they have been told..

Rewulf may not support Russia but he is treated (as are others) as the devil incarnate for merely questioning the Ukrainian propaganda being dished out on a daily basis.

 

Factual information ( 24 February 2022, Russia invaded Ukraine ) 

Obviously Ukraine is dishing out propaganda on a daily it happens in all wars / special operations, and by all sides.  Some are not having a disagreement with Rewulf for repeatedly stating the blatantly obvious, more for him constantly questioning Ukraine's version of events but rarely Russia's. 

Quote

Britain re-created the World War I Ministry of Information for the duration of World War 2 to generate propaganda to influence the population towards support for the war effort. A wide range of media was employed aimed at local and overseas audiences. Traditional forms such as newspapers and posters were joined by new media including cinema (film), newsreels and radio.

 

Edited August 23, 2022 by ordnance

[Mungler]

As above.

But Stonepark is still straight up bonkers 

[Rewulf]

3 hours ago, Mungler said:

No point discussing anything Russian with Rewulf - Russia does it better, bigger, faster, harder than anywhere else of course

And I'm pretty certain I never said anything like that either 😂

It's getting a bit embarrassing the way you keep attributing things to me I've never said,  or accusing me of never saying things I have,  then there's the petty insults... I suppose if it makes you feel better about things... Makes you feel superior? 

Then at least I've done some good ❤️

3 hours ago, Mungler said:

And more of the Russian kit fails, fails to be re-supplied because of sanctions and so on. 

So much of the maintenance budget gets stolen in corruption, makes you wonder what works? Cannon fodder from the far reaches and inaccurate artillery apparently

How do you know all this stuff,  have you got someone high up in Russian intelligence.? 

Or did you see it on telly? 😏

50 minutes ago, ordnance said:

for him constantly questioning Ukraine's version of events but rarely Russia's

Why do I need to question Russias version of events,  when there's well informed gentlemen like your good self and Mungler keep us informed? 

[ordnance]

Quote

Why do I need to question Russias version of events,  when there's well informed gentlemen like your good self and Mungler keep us informed? 

Fair enough, you admit your one sided views. 

 

[Dave-G]

I think its good to counter that Russia is the bad boy narrative according to most western supporting media with opinions and facts that indicate both sides have bad war actions. I did it myself at first - calling Putin a cretin if anyone remembers before I started looking across a broader stream of media and opening my mind.

One of the most  telling aspects for me was seeing a UK TV news report showing a bombed building with everything in sight being soot blackened - except a very very clean Barbie type doll, clearly placed on top the rubble to pathetically make some sort of impact to naive viewers.

[Mungler]

8 hours ago, Dave-G said:

I think its good to counter that Russia is the bad boy narrative according to most western supporting media with opinions and facts that indicate both sides have bad war actions. I did it myself at first - calling Putin a cretin if anyone remembers before I started looking across a broader stream of media and opening my mind.

One of the most  telling aspects for me was seeing a UK TV news report showing a bombed building with everything in sight being soot blackened - except a very very clean Barbie type doll, clearly placed on top the rubble to pathetically make some sort of impact to naive viewers.

Yeah and then there’s still the small ‘Russian invasion’ thing that helps put it all into context.

Mind you, if you think that Russia ‘had’ to invade to sort out a security threat or hunt down Nazis or ‘NATO whatever’ then you are lost down the rabbit hole of the mentally challenged. 

All the ‘just adding balance’ nonsense consistently and conveniently skips over the ‘unnecessary invasion by Russia into a neighbour bit’ (and where all the political and discussion routes which some will tell us Ukraine should be pursuing harder now were completely and wholesale ignored by Russia) and which is how we got to where we are now.

Indeed, if rolling tanks and 250,000 troops over a border isn’t something the ‘bad boy’ does then I don’t know what is 😆

9 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Why do I need to question Russias version of events,  when there's well informed gentlemen like your good self and Mungler keep us informed? 

Well, with you and Stonepark bigging up the   invading murdering Ruskies (and collecting Kremlin points for your Dacha) and a couple of us on the other side backing Ukraine and those being murdered and invaded by the Ruskies, we get a balanced view.

 

[mchughcb]

There was essentially a civil war occurring on the doorsteps on a superpower.

Was NATO in Ukraine training Ukrainians to defend Ukraine against Russia or to attack Ukrainians?

I'm going with the latter.

 

Well if you believe its the latter then the Ukrainians then invited the Russians to push the Ukrainian army out off the Donbass and allow them to be Republics.

When I look back to the War of Independence. The English got the French to help them fight the English who were being assisted by Germany mercenaries.

In the end the English became Americans. The English stayed English. 

 

[timps]

1 hour ago, mchughcb said:

There was essentially a civil war occurring on the doorsteps on a superpower.

Was NATO in Ukraine training Ukrainians to defend Ukraine against Russia or to attack Ukrainians?

I'm going with the latter.

 

Well if you believe its the latter then the Ukrainians then invited the Russians to push the Ukrainian army out off the Donbass and allow them to be Republics.

When I look back to the War of Independence. The English got the French to help them fight the English who were being assisted by Germany mercenaries.

In the end the English became Americans. The English stayed English. 

 

It is an interesting premise however the war of independence was just that, Independence from a foreign power, France’s involvement was solely “The enemy of my enemy is my friend" the French might have tried to influence or seek favour with the new republic but that was as far as it got the USA was truly independent.

If you think the Donbass or Crimea are ever going to be truly independent republics then you are going to be in for a disappointment.

Whatever regime would ever end up in these so-called new republics they would have to be totally and unwaveringly subservient to Putin in every aspect. Should they stray from this path then there would be another Russian backed “war of independence” to free them from the tyranny of (insert Putin’s new villain of choice here).

Based on that it is nothing more than a land grab, I don’t see the president of the USA asking the president of France if it is ok to do something, the same would never be said about the new Donbass republic.