Sensible balanced article on trophy hunting

[WalkedUp]

https://amp.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jun/01/its-neocolonialism-campaign-to-ban-uk-imports-of-hunting-trophies-condemned-aoe

[Fellside]

Thanks for that WalkedUp - yes unusually balanced for the Guardian. 

[bluesj]

Unfortunately people aren't interested in truth or facts anymore only what will make the look good.

Ricky Gervais, Brian May, Ed Sheeran and Joanna Lumley will not be putting there hands in there pockets to replace the money that will be lost to the areas that have managed trophy hunting that pays for the game wardens, nor will they be standing up and saying they got it wrong when wild animal numbers start falling.

[oowee]

4 hours ago, Fellside said:

Thanks for that WalkedUp - yes unusually balanced for the Guardian. 

Expect more balance from the Guardian than elsewhere. 

Interesting the success of trophy hunting in some African countries producing some of the best specimens of all time. 

[Fellside]

The Guardian is bunny hugging Packhamesque rag. It normally touts blatant lies about shooting (and farming) - written by their several false gurus. Apart from that it’s great…..😁

[Pushandpull]

This important topic was raised in the Guardian a while back by Claire Truss (a "lefty") and she got a lot of abuse. However it got the issue out there when professional conservationists had failed to do so. e.g. Professor Amy Dickman of Oxford WildCRU was chucked out of an antiTH event for disagreeing but with minimal reporting.

You may not like the opinions expressed in this paper, but on environmental and allied factual issues it is pretty sound. Importantly there is no pay wall.

[1Ab]

I personally sit on the fence with this one, I was lucky enough to grow up in  Southern Africa.

And I must say most of the trophy hunting in Africa by Europeans and Americans is absolutely disgusting when you get a look behind the scenes. But unfortunately we only get to see the trophy photo.

I have been on one of these hunts as a helping hand and it consisted of chasing a herd of  antelope through the bush in a land cruiser till one of the heard got tired and started falling behind and then the "hunter" can take a pot shot at the animal to claim his trophy. 

Shooting protected animals like lions is even worse they normally have the animal caged the hunter stands a safe distance behind the cage they open the cage and the hunter starts shooting. 

It is an awful thing to see because the lions in particular they dont want to shoot anywhere close to the head as not to ruin the trophy so they just pepper the lion with bullets in the body and it suffers a great deal before dieing. 

And in the case of shooting protected animals it costs allot of money because it's illegal and most of that money will go to the farmer who arranged it not back into the local community.

Having said that I have no problem with trophy hunters who actually go out there with their gun on foot stalking animals that are legal to kill. 

Giving the animal half a chance of outsmarting the hunter.

 

 

[Scully]

I recently watched a Louis Theroux programme on trophy hunting. 
It was the usual mix of people shooting trophies from a hide at a range of about twenty metres, with the odd one venturing out in a vehicle until a suitable example is found, but those who raised the animals were the most interesting in my view. Most were ex farmers who had turned to raising animals in enclosed areas ( big areas ) simply because it was easier, and the income much greater. Like everything else in life, it usually comes down to money. 
One farmer claimed that if it weren’t for trophy hunting, some animals would be extinct, such as the Sable. 
Louis had a go but couldn’t pull the trigger when the time came, and I’d have been disappointed if he had. 
He ended by saying he doesn’t mind eating the meat, but doesn’t want to do the killing. Good for him, at least he’s honest. 
Not my idea of a hunting safari if I’m honest; it’s canned hunting, but so is driven game shooting. 

 

[Pushandpull]

The canned hunting industry (mostly of lions) is slowly being stopped. It really has nothing to do with fair chase hunting of wild individuals, and is rejected by, among others, the professional hunters association. It only developed in RSA, and involves captive bred lions and the cub-petting business.

The description above of chasing animals to a standstill is impossible (like any anecdote) to deny but - why would you ? I believe it happens in this country but is hardly representative of the way we cull deer.

For legal reasons, most land holdings in RSA are ultimately fenced, but some of the areas involved are colossal such that some beasts will never see a fence.

In Southern Africa as a whole, hunting income maintains habitat in the vast areas which are not really amenable for photo-tourism. It helps the local people put up with living alongside big wild animals, and puts money into communities. The best model is that in Namibia, a poor country ravaged by many years of war, which has developed a wonderful model of conservation blended with sustainable use. Start with stuff like Keith Somerville or Conservation Namibia on twitter to know more.

Documentaries such as that by Theroux are always going to look for controversy. But consider : A drive or walk in. Spying for a possible opportunity. A lung-bursting climb for an hour or two to get in position. Crouch and then crawl for what seems like miles  to a rock or knoll. Pick the beast. Take the shot. Gralloch. Start the long drag to a vehicle access. The knees hurt even more on the way down. This could be a day's hunting in Argyll, or in the Eastern Cape. It wouldn't make great TV.

[1Ab]

7 minutes ago, Pushandpull said:

The description above of chasing animals to a standstill is impossible (like any anecdote) to deny but - why would you ?

It is very possible and is quite common practice especially for inexperienced hunters. And on farms that have been converted from livestock to hunting. 

These farms are big and accessible on 4x4. The customers pay for a kill and the hosts will make sure it happens even if that means chasing them down in a truck. 

While there are many reputable and responsible hunting establishments.

Most of them are not, it's a dirty business and they come up with all sorts of justifications like conservation and money to the local community. 

I'm sorry it's not, in my experience most of the money goes straight into the farmers already full bank account. While the local people are and environment is exploited.

 

[WalkedUp]

I watched the Louis Theroux documentary 15 years ago and it was the moment the scales fell from my eyes on how these documentaries are made in a forced pre-judged manner.

[1Ab]

It's a sad state of affairs in Africa regardless of point of view. 

It think when it comes to the hunting, damned if do damned if you don't kind of situation. 

And there are many willing to make money out of this.

I gues for those doing things within the law and actually contributing to conservation and wildlife good on them. 

For those who are just filling their own pockets. With no regard for the animals and the local community shame on them.

Speaking from my own experience a good 20 years ago there were certainly more cowboys offering canned hunting just for their own gain. 

I hope things have changed and things are better now.

 

[Pushandpull]

1Ab, I have to question some of your knowledge. For example "peppering the lion with bullets" - well a close up heart shot is going to kill a lion dead pretty quick,nasty as the whole thing may be. But it has nothing to do with fair chase and legitimate hunting which gas grown steadily.

There are estimated to be some 20.5 million game animals in RSA (more than domestic stock) of which the majority, 16 million, are on private land rather than in the care of SANParks. Obviously big and valuable species such as elephants and lions tend to be all enclosed in NPs, unlike countries such as Zambia and Tanzania where the local folk put up with them to a point in many areas.

I have visited South Africa and some of its NPs. I have hunted a little, not for trophies, and I have watched a lot of birds and animals. I have spent time with landowners and I even know a couple of folk who have hunted buffalo and elephant. I am sure that abusive practices such as you describe occur but as I have said before they are not typical, any more than some of the dodgy things which happen over here are typical.

I will leave it there as we are just going to end up with argument by assertion.

I will just say to those who have never visited Africa ; go there. It is like landing on another planet where everything that grows, walks and flies is new and different - even the wonderful night sky. The poverty you will see everywhere is another matter, but as a visitor you are helping a little.

[Scully]

47 minutes ago, WalkedUp said:

I watched the Louis Theroux documentary 15 years ago and it was the moment the scales fell from my eyes on how these documentaries are made in a forced pre-judged manner.

Of course they are; all have agendas and bias despite claiming to be impartial.
It would be the same if we made one concerning shooting in the UK. 

[1Ab]

1 hour ago, Pushandpull said:

1Ab, I have to question some of your knowledge. For example "peppering the lion with bullets"

Question all you like these things happen. Often the hunters who come from Europe America and Russia have more money than sense want to go and shoot big game with their posh guns.

These are also the types who go an do these things knowing full well it's against the law. 

When they are standing behind the cage waiting for the animal to be let out, they are totally unprepared for what's coming. The lion bolts out the cage like a bat out of hell .Even a good shot would struggle with a heart shot. So all they do is try not to hit the head.

Lions are tough and will take a good few bullets before they go down. 

 

[Pushandpull]

O.K. so we are talking about canned lion hunting which is regrettably not against the law yet. I have seen a few clips and the poor beasts are not running about. So just wait for it to stop. It's unpleasant. Lions are physically powerful but back in the day most were shot with what we would call deer rifles such as .303 British, 7 x 57 etc. because that is what settlers had. Today the legal minimum calibre for wild dangerous game is usually .375 H & H or equivalent but these are different times.

Once again, please do not conflate these activities with the huge areas given over to what we now call rewilding and where hunting helps to pay the bills and get through the next seemingly inevitable drought.

[1Ab]

10 minutes ago, Pushandpull said:

Once again, please do not conflate these activities with the huge areas given over to what we now call rewilding and where hunting helps to pay the bills and get through the next seemingly inevitable drought

I just voiced my opinion on my own personal experience living there as a resident and getting a look behind the scenes.

Unfortunately the lines between "rewilding" and canned hunting are blurred. 

Like I said there many reputable establishments that offer sustainable hunting. And that's fine but there are just as many terrible ones and that's where my problem with it lies. Profit and greed and then dressing it up to be a good cause.

Anyway I am glad you had a good time out there

[Fellside]

5 hours ago, Pushandpull said:

This important topic was raised in the Guardian a while back by Claire Truss (a "lefty") and she got a lot of abuse. However it got the issue out there when professional conservationists had failed to do so. e.g. Professor Amy Dickman of Oxford WildCRU was chucked out of an antiTH event for disagreeing but with minimal reporting.

You may not like the opinions expressed in this paper, but on environmental and allied factual issues it is pretty sound. Importantly there is no pay wall.

I’m not focusing on this topic alone re the Guardian’s Packhamesque rants. I agree this topic has been addressed with balance - hence it is unusual. It is widely acknowledged that the Guardian is an ‘anti’ rag for very good reasons. They tend to take an even harder ‘anti’ line than the BBC. Suggesting that they are sound on environmental issues is like saying LACS (who they often quote) have well researched opinions. 

[Pushandpull]

Fellside. We will have to agree to differ. Their factual material often contains links to useful sources. LACS might be quoted in opinion pieces but this is not the same thing.

1Ab. Thanks for the conversation. I have sent you a PM.

[oowee]

I go every year and don't recognise some of the canned hunting described. I understood lion's had to be 'wild' for 6 months. Shooting had to be accompanied by Govt rep and ticketed in RSA. 

Interesting delegation from African nations petitioning UK government now to stop ant trophy bill. Inviting the like of Ricky Gervaise to come and see tge damage such a bill will do to the animals he wants to protect. 

[Lloyd90]

One of the best documentaries on big game hunting I’ve ever seen, and it’s filmed by a vegan. 
 

Very balanced, but I think the show is made fantastic solely by the main character 🤣

[WalkedUp]

Yes, a great documentary. 

[London Best]

I hunted boar in Croatia and grouse over pointers on the estate where he lives in Scotland with Guy. 
What you see is what you get!

[button]

11 minutes ago, London Best said:

I hunted boar in Croatia and grouse over pointers on the estate where he lives in Scotland with Guy. 
What you see is what you get!

Not sure that's a great endorsement 

[WalkedUp]

Just now, button said:

Not sure that's a great endorsement 

Not if you are looking for someone to run a dishwasher 🤣

But as far as HPRs in the UK are concerned, he’s the godfather.