New Beretta Shotguns

[JohnfromUK]

2 minutes ago, Scully said:

What I do know is that You CAN put standard steel shot through ANY choke, including Full, in ANY nitro proofed gun.

You can - but most gunmakers recommend no more than 1/2 choke, which with steel will give a pattern near full choke for lead (apparently).

4 minutes ago, Scully said:

It is also logical that if you can have your nitro proofed gun proofed for HP steel, and you can ( there is no point in having it proofed for any other type of steel other than HP, as it’s already capable of using standard ) then it just goes to prove there is no need.

Steel proof (Fleur de Lis) IS for HP.  As far as I know there is no other level of proof for steel other than the Fleur de Lis.

5 minutes ago, Scully said:

He has been advised to have it HP shot proofed, to increase its value and appeal, and thereby proving that all he’ll be paying for is a fleur delys stamp! 

That is true - and he will be taking a (small) risk that it will fail steel proof and paying a fee - in order (assuming all goes well) that his gun will be a better seller/easier trade in.

On a personal note, I will use steel (non HP) in my nitro (non steel proof) guns in 1/2 choke or less (which is by and large what I have anyway), but my big issue is the (present) difficulty of sourcing suitable loads for 2 1/2 inch chambers.  They are nominally available, but hard to get unless you are prepared to go out and buy a thousand.  I really want to buy a box of several types and give them a try and (I hope) try some patterns eventually.  I have not yet found any local suppliers who sell 2 1/2" steel 'by the box'.

I have no doubt that availability will improve - but it is not good at present.

[London Best]

I have had 2 1/2 inch steel cartridges on order since last October. Phone calls to manufacturers all get the same answer: we are not producing any at the moment but they WILL be available for the start of next game season.

Maybe.

[grahamch]

11 hours ago, Scully said:

The only difference between HP steel and standard steel is shot size. 
As steel traditionally patterns tighter than lead, then logic dictates there is no point going tighter than 1/2 anyhow, so what is the point in having our nitro proofed guns re-proofed, or in fact proofing any new guns for steel if it is recommended we go no tighter than half? 
Like you say, all the information you need is available on the internet…..or is it?
 

Not true, the service pressures are very different

[Poor Shot]

2 hours ago, Scully said:

I’ll admit I could be wrong about HP shot sizes, but all the HP steel I’ve fired has been shot size 4 and 3, ( Gamebore Supersteel ) and all through 40 odd year old non steel shot proofed guns, including one choked at 3/4. I don’t know if HP steel shot comes in a smaller size, although I know standard steel does. 
There’s a lot of confusing information out there regarding the entire steel shot issue. 
What I do know is that You CAN put standard steel shot through ANY choke, including Full, in ANY nitro proofed gun. 
It is also logical that if you can have your nitro proofed gun proofed for HP steel, and you can ( there is no point in having it proofed for any other type of steel other than HP, as it’s already capable of using standard ) then it just goes to prove there is no need. 
My nephew owns a Browning Crown, proofed for nitro only. He has been advised to have it HP shot proofed, to increase its value and appeal, and thereby proving that all he’ll be paying for is a fleur delys stamp! 

I quite regularly use a steel clay load marked as HP Steel. They are the Caledonian Cartridges steel clay cartridges. 

I would be very careful with your assumptions, while not necessarily all are incorrect and I'm not a stickler for the rules either but there is more to the HP/ non HP thing than just shot size and choking. 

There are also differing proof pressures. 

I wouldn't have an issue firing a Hull High Pheasant Steel or the Gamebore alternative through any modern-ish gun in good condition but I do have some 3" 3's Fiochhi Wetlands sat in the cupboard which have a rated maximum firing pressure of 1050 bar. There will be a lot of older guns out there which have 3" chambers but don't have anywhere near the required proof pressure to fire those cartridges. That's not to say that they couldn't handle it and you'd die but I wouldn't really want to risk it. 

That being said, the Americans have been firing all sorts of **** through the same guns we have but without proof laws to hold them back and I can't recall there being a massive issue with people dying as a result? 

[JohnfromUK]

6 minutes ago, Poor Shot said:

There are also differing proof pressures.

They are very different. 

There was someone on another thread here who had a fairly modern AyA sent for steel proof ........ and it failed (due to bulging I believe).  I have also heard of guns 'going off the face' from steel proof. 

Steel proof (Fleur de Lis) is proofed for 1320 bar. 

Older guns were 850 or 900 bar for 2 3/4 chambers as a standard and 1200 bar for 2 2/3 chambers 'higher proof', so even the older 1200 bar so called 'magnum proof' does not theoretically meet the current suggested minimum for HP steel.  There is a factsheet from the Gun Trades Association here; https://www.gwct.org.uk/media/1094678/GTA_factsheet_shootingnonlead_ver102.pdf

Whilst it doesn't mean that a burst, or even damage will occur - it might make an insurance claim for any damage difficult if the recommendations are not being complied with.

[Scully]

3 hours ago, grahamch said:

Not true, the service pressures are very different

Ok. I’m aware of that, but for steel also?
Is there a proof for standard steel and another for HP steel, and if so why? Given that folk are now saying no tighter than half choke even with HP, then why proof for HP given that nitro proofed guns can handle standard steel through any choke? 
I know I’m repeating myself here, but my nephews Browning Crown had a ‘lead only’ sticker on its fixed choke 1/2 & 1/2 barrels, but he has been advised to submit it for HP steel shot proofing and multi Teagueing. I just wonder why there is a need ( of either ) if the advice is to go no tighter than half? 
Also, a dealer told me that the nitro proofed Miroku I was looking at was multi Teagued ( with a complete set including Full ) and therefore would be ok for steel shot. 
🤔

Given that the Americans just seem to get on with it, it makes you wonder what’s going on with all this illogical and contradictory ‘advice’ here in the UK. 
 

3 hours ago, Poor Shot said:

I quite regularly use a steel clay load marked as HP Steel. They are the Caledonian Cartridges steel clay cartridges. 

I would be very careful with your assumptions, while not necessarily all are incorrect and I'm not a stickler for the rules either but there is more to the HP/ non HP thing than just shot size and choking. 

There are also differing proof pressures. 

I wouldn't have an issue firing a Hull High Pheasant Steel or the Gamebore alternative through any modern-ish gun in good condition but I do have some 3" 3's Fiochhi Wetlands sat in the cupboard which have a rated maximum firing pressure of 1050 bar. There will be a lot of older guns out there which have 3" chambers but don't have anywhere near the required proof pressure to fire those cartridges. That's not to say that they couldn't handle it and you'd die but I wouldn't really want to risk it. 

That being said, the Americans have been firing all sorts of **** through the same guns we have but without proof laws to hold them back and I can't recall there being a massive issue with people dying as a result? 

Thanks, I’ve been using HP steel on and off for years, in old guns, in direct contradiction to current advice, and will continue to do so. I have no intention of having any of them reproofed, it just isn’t necessary. 

[JohnfromUK]

2 minutes ago, Scully said:

Is there a proof for standard steel and another for HP steel, and if so why?

No.  There is one mark for steel proof, and that is the Fleur de Lis.  It covers HP steel and the proof test is at a much higher pressure (1320 bar minimum) than for 'normal' nitro proof (850, 900 or 1200 bar are typical older marks I have seen - see examples below).  Standard steel can (as we have often covered on these pages) be shot from a standard nitro proofed gun provided the chambers are of suitable length for the cartridge used.  However some 'recommendations' are made, notably - that the barrel has half choke of less - and some sources (e.g. https://www.shootinguk.co.uk/guns/ammunition/will-my-shotgun-be-safe-with-steel-shot-cartridges-25848 ) suggest at least 930 bar.  This 930 figure can be a problem because many continental guns such as Spanish traditionally proved at 900 bar and some English at 850 bar.  Others only suggest that they be in current nitro proof and in 'good condition'.

Attached are two sets of AyA barrels;

1. the first is Spanish proved for 900 bar (the 1280 figure is the weight at proof)
2. the second is another set, proved in Birmingham initially at 850 bar, with a reproof to 1200 bar.

Both sets are 12 bore 2 3/4" chambered and made about 30 - 40 years ago.  Neither set is officially steel proofed.  I looked at two Berettas that were to hand and neither specifies a proof 'pressure' figure as such that I could see (hence using AyA as an example as they are clear and easy to photograph!

As an aside, no one I have read is suggesting it is wise to use steel out of Damascus barrels - even if they are in current proof, though I'm sure many people do and will.

1. 

[Scully]

10 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

No.  There is one mark for steel proof, and that is the Fleur de Lis.  It covers HP steel and the proof test is at a much higher pressure (1320 bar minimum) than for 'normal' nitro proof (850, 900 or 1200 bar are typical older marks I have seen - see examples below).  Standard steel can (as we have often covered on these pages) be shot from a standard nitro proofed gun provided the chambers are of suitable length for the cartridge used.  However some 'recommendations' are made, notably - that the barrel has half choke of less - and some sources (e.g. https://www.shootinguk.co.uk/guns/ammunition/will-my-shotgun-be-safe-with-steel-shot-cartridges-25848 ) suggest at least 930 bar.  This 930 figure can be a problem because many continental guns such as Spanish traditionally proved at 900 bar and some English at 850 bar.  Others only suggest that they be in current nitro proof and in 'good condition'.

Attached are two sets of AyA barrels;

1. the first is Spanish proved for 900 bar (the 1280 figure is the weight at proof)
2. the second is another set, proved in Birmingham initially at 850 bar, with a reproof to 1200 bar.

Both sets are 12 bore 2 3/4" chambered and made about 30 - 40 years ago.  Neither set is officially steel proofed.  I looked at two Berettas that were to hand and neither specifies a proof 'pressure' figure as such that I could see (hence using AyA as an example as they are clear and easy to photograph!

As an aside, no one I have read is suggesting it is wise to use steel out of Damascus barrels - even if they are in current proof, though I'm sure many people do and will.

1. 

Thanks, but as far as I’m aware current advice ( BASC) is that standard steel can be shot through ANY choke in a nitro proofed gun. What you have posted contradicts that. 
Wise or not, I have read that the Danes or Norwegians have and or do, shoot steel through Damascus guns, thereby adding to the confusion. 
And once again, the question has to be asked, why test at such high pressures if there is just one test for steel, given that some say no tighter than half choke? Am I the only one who doesn’t see the logic? 

Edited June 21, 2022 by Scully

[JohnfromUK]

30 minutes ago, Scully said:

Thanks, but as far as I’m aware current advice ( BASC) is that standard steel can be shot through ANY choke in

From the BASC advice (linked below) says "Standard Steel cartridges can be fired through any gun proved to the standard level (ie most “Nitro” proved guns, proved to at least 930 bar) and through any choke" you would be quite right BUT

From Note 4 of the BASC advice here ( https://basc.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/downloads/2017/10/Steel-Shot-what-you-need-to-know-from-a-safety-point-of-view-2017.pdf );

"For traditional lightweight game guns, CIP recommends choke generally no greater than half while the British Proof Authorities recommend no more than quarter choke." - You can therefore follow whoever's advice suits you;

• BASC - Any choke
• For traditional game guns CIP - no more than half
• For traditional game guns British Proof Authorities - no more than quarter

So just in the BASC's two page advice (which seems to have been written to make it as confused as possible) we have; 

1. standard level nitro (but at least 930 bar, which is more than the standard levels I have seen of either 850 or 900 bar used in Spain and the UK)
2. through any choke but for traditional lightweight game guns, CIP recommends choke generally no greater than half while the British Proof Authorities recommend no more than quarter choke.

30 minutes ago, Scully said:

Am I the only one who doesn’t see the logic? 

No you are not the only one - and looking at the above one single BASC document - it is very unclear and inconsistent!  I entirely agree that it is a real mess - and everyone has different ideas as to what is 'wise'.

 

30 minutes ago, Scully said:

Wise or not, I have read that the Danes or Norwegians have and or do, shoot steel through Damascus guns, thereby adding to the confusion.

I don't think I will be using steel through my Damascus set - but then - although in current Nitro proof, they are quite thin and it would be a shame to bulge them and destroy a gun over 150 years old now.  Since it only gets very occasional use now, it will slumber in the cabinet when I can no longer use lead.

Edited June 21, 2022 by JohnfromUK

[JohnfromUK]

45 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

standard level nitro (but at least 930 bar, which is more than the standard levels I have seen of either 850 or 900 bar used in Spain and the UK)

To further confuse the issue, UK Proof marks used what is known as a 'crusher gauge' pressure (as in the 850 figure above).  But the 930 is not specified as what type of measurement it is.  In the RULES OF PROOF (link below) in Appendix II there is a table showing the relationship between the two - and 850 bar 'crusher' is 960 bar transducer.  This means it is vitally imporrtant you specify which measurement is being used - which BASC don't.  IF BASC are quoting Transducer pressure of 930 as the figure needed, guns marked 850 under the Crusher method seem to meet this!  Screen cap of the relevant lines below;

From Appendix II in

https://www.gunproof.com/downloads/rules-proofing

Edited June 21, 2022 by JohnfromUK

[Scully]

36 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

From the BASC advice (linked below) says "Standard Steel cartridges can be fired through any gun proved to the standard level (ie most “Nitro” proved guns, proved to at least 930 bar) and through any choke" you would be quite right BUT

From Note 4 of the BASC advice here ( https://basc.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/downloads/2017/10/Steel-Shot-what-you-need-to-know-from-a-safety-point-of-view-2017.pdf );

"For traditional lightweight game guns, CIP recommends choke generally no greater than half while the British Proof Authorities recommend no more than quarter choke." - You can therefore follow whoever's advice suits you;

• BASC - Any choke
• For traditional game guns CIP - no more than half
• For traditional game guns British Proof Authorities - no more than quarter

So just in the BASC's two page advice (which seems to have been written to make it as confused as possible) we have; 

1. standard level nitro (but at least 930 bar, which is more than the standard levels I have seen of either 850 or 900 bar used in Spain and the UK)
2. through any choke but for traditional lightweight game guns, CIP recommends choke generally no greater than half while the British Proof Authorities recommend no more than quarter choke.

No you are not the only one - and looking at the above one single BASC document - it is very unclear and inconsistent!  I entirely agree that it is a real mess - and everyone has different ideas as to what is 'wise'.

 

I don't think I will be using steel through my Damascus set - but then - although in current Nitro proof, they are quite thin and it would be a shame to bulge them and destroy a gun over 150 years old now.  Since it only gets very occasional use now, it will slumber in the cabinet when I can no longer use lead.

So where does all that leave your Berettas if they bear no discernible ‘pressure’ proof stamp? 
Personally I’d be enquiring about compensation for the Damascus gun if this makes it obsolete, but I’ve no doubt you would be told that as lead hasn’t been banned none will be forthcoming. 😉
They ( civil servants ) tried this with me during the process of claiming for everything owing to the handgun ban when they tried to tell me I couldn’t claim for all my reloading gear as I could use it for reloading ammunition for carbines of the same calibres. I told them I had no intention of buying carbines and therefore wanted compensating, and I got it. 

[London Best]

Is there any difference between ‘BAR’ and ‘Kp/cm2’ ?

I always thought BAR was 14.7? lbs/sq inch.

[udderlyoffroad]

36 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

This means it is vitally imporrtant you specify which measurement is being used

Why?

Presumably the barrel 'sees' the same pressure, but the method of measuring it will give a different number.  Regardless of the method used, if the barrel meets the pressure required, it is HP steel proofed.

 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

11 minutes ago, London Best said:

Is there any difference between ‘BAR’ and ‘Kp/cm2’ ?

I always thought BAR was 14.7? lbs/sq inch.

A pressure reading in kilograms per sq cm is converted to bar with the following calculation: 1 bar = 100,000 pascals (Pa) 1 kg/cm² = 98,066.5 pascals (Pa) bar value x 100,000 Pa = kg/cm2 value x 98,066.5 Pa.

[London Best]

Thank you. So, not quite the same then? 
And you have introduced more confusion (for me!) with Pascals.

*** is a Pascal?

Edited June 21, 2022 by London Best

[udderlyoffroad]

18 minutes ago, London Best said:

Is there any difference between ‘BAR’ and ‘Kp/cm2’ ?

 

Kilograms-force (SIC)???  Oh dear, mixing mass and weight is usually reserved for imperial units, and should be consigned to history.  Bar just about gets a pass as the actual SI units are rather...unwieldy, and multiples of atmospheric pressure at sea level* are easy to conceptualise

Have you ever seen such a measurement in the wild, @London Best?

*Yes, I know that's not what a bar is, but close enough for government work.

 

Edited June 21, 2022 by udderlyoffroad

[JohnfromUK]

17 minutes ago, Scully said:

So where does all that leave your Berettas if they bear no discernible ‘pressure’ proof stamp?

I think under the Italian system, one of the hieroglyphics will give the pressure or load, but I have not looked that up.  Both are 'in proof' under the Italian proof done when new and not altered since.

 

15 minutes ago, London Best said:

Is there any difference between ‘BAR’ and ‘Kp/cm2’ ?

I always thought BAR was 14.7? lbs/sq inch.

100 KPA in a Bar

6 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

Presumably the barrel 'sees' the same pressure, but the method of measuring it will give a different number.  Regardless of the method used, if the barrel meets the pressure required, it is HP steel proofed.

Except we are talking non HP proofed where you are advised to meet 930 Bar (under an unknown system of measurement), but many guns are stamped 850 or 900 Bar which is also unstated, but I think is the Crusher method (as they are the figures quoted in the extract from the table).

[London Best]

3 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

Have you ever seen such a measurement in the wild, @London Best?

 

 

I’m sorry, but I genuinely don’t understand the question.

[Scully]

21 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

 Both are 'in proof' under the Italian proof done when new and not altered since.

 

 

So not UK proved then? 

[JohnfromUK]

Just now, Scully said:

So not UK proved then? 

No - many overseas proof houses have a mutual recognition of proof - Spain, France and Italy being amongst those. 

I believe Beretta proof is done in their own factory under the supervision of the Italian authorities, but I may be wrong on that. 

One of mine was bought new in the UK, and the other second hand (again in the UK) and are fully legal to sell as they pass a UK/CIP recognised proof. 

The AyA's pictured earlier - the upper one was proved in Spain, the lower (later barrels made by AyA for the same gun) were proofed in Birmingham when they were fitted to the gun here in the UK.  Unusually they were proofed as standard then re-proofed at 'superior'.  I don't know why. (error?).  Hence the action flats in fact bear both UK and Spanish proof marks as it was 'retested in the UK when the second set of barrels were added.  All done by a previous owner. 

The superior proof barrels are very tightly choked, so in my view would need opening for steel.

[Gerry78]

I’ve said this before on this forum il say it again What is this obsession with HP steel Been Wildfowling years using standard steel With clean kills on ducks and geese Before anyone reply’s HP steel for more distance then from a Wildfowling perspective there Not decoying properly or getting under the flight line right If this was done correctly then there would be no need for longer range shots Just my thoughts 

[Scully]

2 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

 

The superior proof barrels are very tightly choked, so in my view would need opening for steel.

And there we have it; despite all the advice it’s down to personal choice. 
If it were mine I’d just use it as is. 
Each to their own. 

1 hour ago, Gerry78 said:

I’ve said this before on this forum il say it again What is this obsession with HP steel Been Wildfowling years using standard steel With clean kills on ducks and geese Before anyone reply’s HP steel for more distance then from a Wildfowling perspective there Not decoying properly or getting under the flight line right If this was done correctly then there would be no need for longer range shots Just my thoughts 

I agree, but I’ll have to take your word for it regarding standard as I can’t say I’ve ever knowingly come across steel shot cartridges which weren’t HP.
Isn’t the longer ranges what 10 bores are all about? 

[JohnfromUK]

8 minutes ago, Scully said:

And there we have it; despite all the advice it’s down to personal choice. 
If it were mine I’d just use it as is. 

Well, truth is that I bought the gun - and with it came 2 sets of barrels;

• 28" 1/4 and 1/4 - game rib - which suit me just fine for what I do and are original to the gun
• 30" Full and Full+ superior proof and 'pigeon' rib - which in truth have no realistic application in any form of shooting I do. 

[Scully]

10 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Well, truth is that I bought the gun - and with it came 2 sets of barrels;

• 28" 1/4 and 1/4 - game rib - which suit me just fine for what I do and are original to the gun
• 30" Full and Full+ superior proof and 'pigeon' rib - which in truth have no realistic application in any form of shooting I do. 

Fair enough. 

[Gerry78]

36 minutes ago, Scully said:

And there we have it; despite all the advice it’s down to personal choice. 
If it were mine I’d just use it as is. 
Each to their own. 

I agree, but I’ll have to take your word for it regarding standard as I can’t say I’ve ever knowingly come across steel shot cartridges which weren’t HP.
Isn’t the longer ranges what 10 bores are all about? 

Scully I buy standard steel cartridges usually gamebore or eley or what ever is in stock I’ve never bought a box with the High performance stamped on The packaging my friend who uses a modern auto bought it few years back We were flighting a tidal foreshore and he’s HP Steel made no difference as I knew were we could intercept the duck I’m making the point there seems to be a macho image of HP steel Long distance shooting which I totally disagree with I’ve lot of older guns which a gun dealer told me when the lead ban came into force that they would be useless Thou and behold I’m still shooting most of them with no ill effects on The barrels or chambering using standard steel You make a great point if people want to push out to greater ranges and I’m talking a Wildfowling view then bye all means maybe a 10b way to go 

Just now, Gerry78 said:

Scully I buy standard steel cartridges usually gamebore or eley or what ever is in stock I’ve never bought a box with the High performance stamped on The packaging my friend who uses a modern auto bought it few years back We were flighting a tidal foreshore and he’s HP Steel made no difference as I knew were we could intercept the duck I’m making the point there seems to be a macho image of HP steel Long distance shooting which I totally disagree with I’ve lot of older guns which a gun dealer told me when the lead ban came into force that they would be useless Thou and behold I’m still shooting most of them with no ill effects on The barrels or chambering using standard steel You make a great point if people want to push out to greater ranges and I’m talking a Wildfowling view then bye all means maybe a 10b way to go 

#Side note# some of the guns I’ve put standard steel through have been choked 3/4 full