Chaos at Dover again

[Mungler]

14 minutes ago, discobob said:

Buuuuut - I thought that one size was supposed to fit all....(hint - sarcasm)

similar in Cyprus - for the ordinary people anyway

Italy won’t be far behind.

Once the initial wash of investment and new roads and infrastructure is forgotten, people wonder how it is that they don’t control their own economy any more, and in so doing their actual country. 

We have a real opportunity with Brexit but we have to snap out of this current negative malaise and I’m not sure if the next generation have any fight in them - everyone wants everything and a 4 day week. And that is also why fundamental economics should be taught at GCSE because that instils that no one gets something for nothing.

[JohnfromUK]

13 minutes ago, Mungler said:

I’m not sure if the next generation have any fight in them - everyone wants everything and a 4 day week.

Interesting you should say that.  My first ever job (1974) we had an 'early finish' Friday, being 15.45 rather than 17:00 'paid for' by working 4 x 8 1/4 hour days followed by Friday as a  6 1/2 hour day - 37 1/2 hours - our week.  The culture was to work hard on a Friday to get finished by the early finish time.

My next jobs were nominally 5 x 7 1/2 hour days.  Standard.

Much later (2010s), the business I was working for then introduced the same 'early finish' Friday - and again it worked well and Friday was always 'busy' to get finished and get away 'on time'.

Then - change of leadership - and change to finishing at lunchtime on Friday.  Suddenly Friday became in culture 'not a proper work day' - a half day to do a bit of housekeeping, catch up on internal paperwork and other unproductive stuff.  People who had a long commute complained it wasn't worth coming in and could they work from home?  Management allowed this (it suited the 'new leadership as he came for a long way away) and suddenly were were all effectively on a 4 day week. 

I'm glad I retired at that stage as it was a crazy loss of productivity.

[discobob]

27 minutes ago, Mungler said:

4 day week

Nothing wrong with that - as long as 5 days work gets done and the business model can support it

3 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Then - change of leadership - and change to finishing at lunchtime on Friday.

I had a contract where Monday-Thursday was on site - and Friday morning was back in the office and everyone departed at around lunchtime

I worked 3 months of 18 hour days having to recode everything that someone else had done (I was invoicing 7 days though so they were still quids in on a day rate)- when finished and deployed (the delivery date was not negotiable) I had 11 days off I think it was (royal wedding and jubilee) where I arrived home - sat down and that was me for a week - I was totally exhausted - I went back and said I would only be working 4 days but invoicing 5 - I was still doing on average 11 hour days Monday to Thursday

[Mice!]

1 hour ago, Mungler said:

finishing with how the Greeks rue the day they joined the Euro and wish they had their own currency and independence back. 

This is the thing, for all that some moan about Brexit,  for me it means we can control what we do moving forwards,  I don't see foreign travel issues as an issue when compared with control of your own currency,  laws borders etc..

Some countries are playing games ie France and Spain, but what goes around comes around. 

[Penelope]

On 22/07/2022 at 13:45, JohnfromUK said:

I suspect in 55BC they assisted Julius Caesar (an immigrant from Italy as it happens), turning a blind eye as he launched his boat heading to cross the channel.

😄

[oowee]

14 minutes ago, Mice! said:

This is the thing, for all that some moan about Brexit,  for me it means we can control what we do moving forwards,  I don't see foreign travel issues as an issue when compared with control of your own currency,  laws borders etc..

Some countries are playing games ie France and Spain, but what goes around comes around. 

BUT if we have control (and I don't think we do) then we need to do something with it. Dover is not fit for purpose post brexit as is cannot cope with the volume with the new controls, so fix it. Border force is totally under funded, so fix it. The NHS does not have enough staff, get it sorted. We have labour shortages in almost every industry, do something about it. We have a deteriorating balance of trade, get it sorted. 

Sorry i forget its all the fault of everyone else. 

[Penelope]

1 hour ago, Mungler said:

They have really rolled out the red carpet haven’t they, and good for them, I hope it pays dividends.

Our transfer driver was a Greek man who went to Canada to teach mathematics, met a Greek girl and then came back home to look after the elderly parents. We had a fascinating discussion (I always like to look over a fence or two and see what’s what) about the state of Canada, Jordan Peterson and finishing with how the Greeks rue the day they joined the Euro and wish they had their own currency and independence back. 
 

I expect that was an interesting conversation.

[Mungler]

47 minutes ago, Mice! said:

This is the thing, for all that some moan about Brexit,  for me it means we can control what we do moving forwards,  I don't see foreign travel issues as an issue when compared with control of your own currency,  laws borders etc..

Some countries are playing games ie France and Spain, but what goes around comes around. 

Agreed. We need a plan though and the will to see it through.

 

29 minutes ago, oowee said:

BUT if we have control (and I don't think we do) then we need to do something with it. Dover is not fit for purpose post brexit as is cannot cope with the volume with the new controls, so fix it. Border force is totally under funded, so fix it. The NHS does not have enough staff, get it sorted. We have labour shortages in almost every industry, do something about it. We have a deteriorating balance of trade, get it sorted. 

Sorry i forget its all the fault of everyone else. 

 

Re ‘a plan’, Dover needs sorting out. Indeed I would have put that and a 3 lane motorway to Cornwall I front of HS2 - who wouldn’t do more holidaying in Cornwall with a 3 lane motorway connecting it to the rest of the Country?

I’ve got friends and family in the NHS and the consensus is that 20% of the people do 80% of the work and it doesn’t need more money it needs a proper sort out.  The NHS  sucks a breathtaking amount already and it’s not like we’re getting any value - we’re neither the happiest nor the longest loving despite the highest per capital spend on state healthcare.

[Mice!]

18 minutes ago, Mungler said:

Re ‘a plan’, Dover needs sorting out. Indeed I would have put that and a 3 lane motorway to Cornwall I front of HS2 - who wouldn’t do more holidaying in Cornwall with a 3 lane motorway connecting it to the rest of the Country

Absolutely,  you'll find most folk up north couldn't care less how long the train to London takes,  but if it says 3.5hrs leaving at 10am then that's what it should do, not be delayed or cancelled or have to jump on a bus, that's more important than a high speed line.

We always went to Cornwall as kids, and I still remember sitting for hours in gridlock,  one time we were in the fields picking peas while everyone was out of their cars, and this will be 35-40 years ago, friends who go now travel in the middle of the night hoping to avoid the travel chaos,  its probably the same poor roads as years ago?

 

[Yellow Bear]

1 hour ago, Mice! said:

Some countries are playing games ie France and Spain, but what goes around comes around. 

A clamp down on fishing boats should do for a start.

[Dave-G]

31 minutes ago, Mice! said:

Absolutely,  you'll find most folk up north couldn't care less how long the train to London takes,  but if it says 3.5hrs leaving at 10am then that's what it should do, not be delayed or cancelled or have to jump on a bus, that's more important than a high speed line.

We always went to Cornwall as kids, and I still remember sitting for hours in gridlock,  one time we were in the fields picking peas while everyone was out of their cars, and this will be 35-40 years ago, friends who go now travel in the middle of the night hoping to avoid the travel chaos,  its probably the same poor roads as years ago?

 

Back in the 80's it was an 8 to 9 hour trip but Its mostly pleasant scenic dual carriageways these days after leaving the M5, sweeping by solar and wind farms - and a maximum 5 hours at legal speeds to Hayle near Penzance from Leicester at 300 miles with zero traffic lights from the beginning of M69 at non peak times. :-)

 

Edited July 25, 2022 by Dave-G

[Mice!]

1 hour ago, oowee said:

BUT if we have control (and I don't think we do) then we need to do something with it. Dover is not fit for purpose post brexit as is cannot cope with the volume with the new controls, so fix it. Border force is totally under funded, so fix it. The NHS does not have enough staff, get it sorted. We have labour shortages in almost every industry, do something about it. We have a deteriorating balance of trade, get it sorted. 

Sorry i forget its all the fault of everyone else. 

I saw something about the French man in charge the other day but can't find the link now.

It's deliberate plain as that, only half the lanes working doing a 100% check, while the unchecked are landing on our beaches in boats wearing life jackets. 

I didn't realise the French did their checks on our side of the channel till this kicked off, the government should kick the French out and we do the checks ourselves,  or force the French government to do the job properly. 

There are lots of things that simply don't work efficiently,  and they are mostly massive industries like the NHS, rail, etc, hopefully going forwards things will improve,  the ball is in our court so to speak.

 

[oowee]

12 minutes ago, Mice! said:

I saw something about the French man in charge the other day but can't find the link now.

It's deliberate plain as that, only half the lanes working doing a 100% check, while the unchecked are landing on our beaches in boats wearing life jackets. 

I didn't realise the French did their checks on our side of the channel till this kicked off, the government should kick the French out and we do the checks ourselves,  or force the French government to do the job properly. 

There are lots of things that simply don't work efficiently,  and they are mostly massive industries like the NHS, rail, etc, hopefully going forwards things will improve,  the ball is in our court so to speak.

 

Liz Truss has lamented the “unacceptable” queues at Dover, blaming a lack of staffing by the French for the disruption.

Bumper-to-bumper traffic, in six-hour queues, made its way towards the Port of Dover on Friday – one of the busiest periods for foreign travel from the UK as most schools in England and Wales break up for summer.

The foreign secretary called on France to act over “entirely avoidable” delays at the border, saying: “We need action from France to build up capacity at the border to limit any further disruption for British tourists and to ensure this appalling situation is avoided in future.”

But the British government was offered a proposal back in 2020 to curtail the chaos at the border, but they rejected it.

The UK cabinet office snubbed a £33 million proposal to double the capacity for French government passport checks at Dover.

The money would have been used to double the number of French government passport booths from five to 10 in anticipation of more stringent requirements, including stamps in passports after January 1st, according to the Financial Times.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

But it was OUR infrastructure that was not up to the rush!  

 

Too many old narrow roads!   

[Dave-G]

Out of curiosity, does the EU require passports to be stamped at all entry points on the European mainland? Including those who arrive via the med on inflatables?

Edited July 25, 2022 by Dave-G

[JohnfromUK]

The number of passport booths has been increased by the Port of Dover Authority to 12.  However - the French staff who arrived were only sufficient to operate 6 of the available 12 booths.  Source - The Times

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/full-team-of-french-border-officials-arrive-at-dover-as-major-incident-declared-xlwd6873z

[Mice!]

@oowee see John's post above,  we should have been able to staff the empty booths and get on with it.

[oowee]

3 minutes ago, Mice! said:

@oowee see John's post above,  we should have been able to staff the empty booths and get on with it.

👍Same as baggage handlers and airport staff shortages, passport delays at UK airports we should just get on with it. But we dont. 

Edited July 25, 2022 by oowee

[JohnfromUK]

Just now, oowee said:

👍

The story originally on the first day (last Friday?) was that the staff to man the booths were travelling over on the shuttle - but that there had been 'a problem' (not further specified) with the shuttle, so they were short staffed in Dover that day.  Not sure if that is still the story.

[Mungler]

It’s all nonsense, in this world there is no need for physical paper and physical stamps.

When was the last time anyone going through an airport ever reached for a piece of paper?

Also with advanced passenger information and electronic checks, you could have a green channel (strait through) and an amber channel (we need a look) - as per container shipping. 

Fielding half the bodies on the busiest day and checking for everyone’s warning triangles sends a message. Nice of them to remind us that it has *never* been the case that’s we’ve always been together as one in Europe as every remainer will have believe.

[Penelope]

7 minutes ago, Mungler said:

It’s all nonsense, in this world there is no need for physical paper and physical stamps.

When was the last time anyone going through an airport ever reached for a piece of paper?

Also with advanced passenger information and electronic checks, you could have a green channel (strait through) and an amber channel (we need a look) - as per container shipping. 

Fielding half the bodies on the busiest day and checking for everyone’s warning triangles sends a message. Nice of them to remind us that it has *never* been the case that’s we’ve always been together as one in Europe as every remainer will have believe.

Indeed, nothing more than a cynical and childish swipe!

[oowee]

34 minutes ago, Mungler said:

It’s all nonsense, in this world there is no need for physical paper and physical stamps.

When was the last time anyone going through an airport ever reached for a piece of paper?

Also with advanced passenger information and electronic checks, you could have a green channel (strait through) and an amber channel (we need a look) - as per container shipping. 

Fielding half the bodies on the busiest day and checking for everyone’s warning triangles sends a message. Nice of them to remind us that it has *never* been the case that’s we’ve always been together as one in Europe as every remainer will have believe.

We left. Remember? 

[Mice!]

40 minutes ago, oowee said:

👍Same as baggage handlers and airport staff shortages, passport delays at UK airports we should just get on with it. But we dont. 

No, this was the French not sending enough staff. So something should be in place that we put staff in there.

How the airports can't get enough staff I've no idea, they'll no doubt blame it on lots of things, like security checks for new staff, but they know when the busy periods are, but probably didn't want to take staff on then have to pay them if covid stopped things, or people don't want the jobs, zero hour contracts maybe?

[oowee]

17 minutes ago, Mice! said:

No, this was the French not sending enough staff. So something should be in place that we put staff in there.

How the airports can't get enough staff I've no idea, they'll no doubt blame it on lots of things, like security checks for new staff, but they know when the busy periods are, but probably didn't want to take staff on then have to pay them if covid stopped things, or people don't want the jobs, zero hour contracts maybe?

Luckily we took back control. 

There are staff shortages across the UK in all sectors and we are doing nothing about it. Why?

[Mice!]

11 minutes ago, oowee said:

Luckily we took back control. 

There are staff shortages across the UK in all sectors and we are doing nothing about it. Why?

In all sectors? Can't be because there are loads of unemployed?

I've no idea, if there are shortages then it's up to the businesses to get more staff, either the pay isn't good enough, or they're expecting too much, or the staff that were there hot better jobs after being finished because of covid.