Do I need to send my sgc off for an rfd transfer?

[rbrowning2]

6 hours ago, Rewulf said:

If the seller is the (private) owner of the gun selling through the RFD(s) then you are correct.

But if the private seller 'sells' the gun to the RFD , and the RFD then 'sells' it to receiving RFD , who then fills the ticket out upon collection by the new owner.
Technically, no laws have been broken , and cert conditions have been met.

I have heard some RFDs say that the police 'dont like' them doing this, how on earth they would know, Im not sure.
But this was generally how it was done a few years back.

What was done a few years back was not correct, convenient yes, legal no.

So how does the money get to the private seller?  who takes the financial hit if when the gun finally arrives at the local private buyers RFD the buyer then see the gun and it is not as described and they decide they no longer want the gun? As your way at that time the gun is not entered on their certificate, have they paid the original private seller or has the first or last RFD? Then who pays for the gun to be returned?  Buying private or from an RFD who are not local enough to travel too can very much be buy beware.

Then warranty issues as has been said. 

Personally I would never buy a gun I had not handled in person, like used cars.

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, rbrowning2 said:

Buying private or from an RFD who are not local enough to travel too can very much be buy beware.

Had my fingers burnt this way before, I bought what I was told was a brand new gun in a 2nd hand stock, I travelled to collect it from an RFD who was holding it for the seller, {I'd already paid the seller} 

Wasn't until I got it back and decided to borescope it, I realised the throat was very worn, and it certainly wasn't new. 

It's shoots well though, but it wasn't as described. 

1 hour ago, rbrowning2 said:

Personally I would never buy a gun I had not handled in person, like used cars

The problem there is handling it, is a bit like just looking at the car. 

You need to drive/shoot it, to be sure it functions as it should. 

This is more difficult with a gun than a car. 

[Robden]

I went through all this earlier this year. In the end, I did a 7 hour round trip. Saved the rfd's payment which paid for the fuel.....and lunch. 

Bought it one day and used it the next.   All done and dusted in a day, and no worrying about postal strikes, or being lost/damaged in transit etc.  

[Newbie to this]

Unfortunately, if you want to stay within the law and adhere to you certificate conditions, then yes it has to be the seller that enters the purchase onto your cert, not the RFD.

But as others have said, if your issuing force are happy to have the receiving RFD enter it onto your cert then all is good. But I would get it confirmed in a email and keep the email.

[London Best]

9 hours ago, rbrowning2 said:

What was done a few years back was not correct, convenient yes, legal no.

So how does the money get to the private seller?  who takes the financial hit if when the gun finally arrives at the local private buyers RFD the buyer then see the gun and it is not as described and they decide they no longer want the gun? As your way at that time the gun is not entered on their certificate, have they paid the original private seller or has the first or last RFD? Then who pays for the gun to be returned?  Buying private or from an RFD who are not local enough to travel too can very much be buy beware.

Then warranty issues as has been said. 

Personally I would never buy a gun I had not handled in person, like used cars.

I could not agree more. 
How anybody can contemplate buying a gun they have not seen is beyond me. Totally stupid idea.

[Dave-G]

I've often wondered why it has to be the other party who writes on your ticket. Sounds like a bit of jobsworth box ticking to me but I'm sure someone can explain it.

[timps]

1 hour ago, Dave-G said:

I've often wondered why it has to be the other party who writes on your ticket. Sounds like a bit of jobsworth box ticking to me but I'm sure someone can explain it.

It is simply how the firearms act is worded and to make the seller accountable in law.

If you are selling a firearm/shotgun  you need to see the the other persons certificate and follow the instructions on it. Ultimately it is the sellers responsibility to check everything is in order you cannot pass the blame solely on to the transferring RFD should you not comply with a condition or instruction by saying well I never saw it and RFD filled it in so it’s the RFD’s fault not mine.

On the various threads that pop up on here over the years people still think that the firearms department can countermand an act of parliament and it’s their rules that govern.

It is ultimately your responsibility in law and laws require an act of parliament and can only be changed by parliament not by a phone call or email to your FEO . Clause (3) of the firearms act listed below should leave anyone in no doubt, it is a punishable offence not to comply.

 

32

Transfers of firearms etc. to be in person.

(1) This section applies where, in Great Britain—

(a) a firearm or ammunition to which section 1 of the 1968 Act applies is sold, let on hire, lent or given by any person, or

(b) a shot gun is sold, let on hire or given, or lent for a period of more than 72 hours by any person,

to another person who is neither a registered firearms dealer nor a person who is entitled to purchase or acquire the firearm or ammunition without holding a firearm or shot gun certificate or a visitor’s firearm or shot gun permit.

 

(2) Where a transfer to which this section applies takes place—

(a) the transferee must produce to the transferor the certificate or permit entitling him to purchase or acquire the firearm or ammunition being transferred;

(b) the transferor must comply with any instructions contained in the certificate or permit produced by the transferee;

(c) the transferor must hand the firearm or ammunition to the transferee, and the transferee must receive it, in person.

 

(3) A failure by the transferor or transferee to comply with subsection (2) above shall be an offence.

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, timps said:

32

Transfers of firearms etc. to be in person.

(1) This section applies where, in Great Britain—

(a) a firearm or ammunition to which section 1 of the 1968 Act applies is sold, let on hire, lent or given by any person, or

(b) a shot gun is sold, let on hire or given, or lent for a period of more than 72 hours by any person,

to another person who is neither a registered firearms dealer nor a person who is entitled to purchase or acquire the firearm or ammunition without holding a firearm or shot gun certificate or a visitor’s firearm or shot gun permit.

Im sorry , but this part is completely irrelevant to the issue.
It states that you cant sell or transfer a sec 1 or 2 item to someone who doesnt produce a relevant FAC or RFD cert.
No is suggesting anything of the sort is going to happen, you would clearly be in breach of licence conditions, and once it was discovered what you had done , you would be revoked faster than a fast thing.

1 hour ago, timps said:

(2) Where a transfer to which this section applies takes place—

(a) the transferee must produce to the transferor the certificate or permit entitling him to purchase or acquire the firearm or ammunition being transferred;

(b) the transferor must comply with any instructions contained in the certificate or permit produced by the transferee;

(c) the transferor must hand the firearm or ammunition to the transferee, and the transferee must receive it, in person.

 

(3) A failure by the transferor or transferee to comply with subsection (2) above shall be an offence.

This doesnt even mention a seller/owner , but instead uses the term 'transferee' who could easily be the RFD to who it was sent, who WOULD  check you had relevant licence slots to possess.
It says nothing about sending tickets off to persons unknown.

To summarise , Im not saying that some force areas dont request you do this , but to me , they are just bending the guidelines (again)

[timps]

29 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Im sorry , but this part is completely irrelevant to the issue.
It states that you cant sell or transfer a sec 1 or 2 item to someone who doesnt produce a relevant FAC or RFD cert.
No is suggesting anything of the sort is going to happen, you would clearly be in breach of licence conditions, and once it was discovered what you had done , you would be revoked faster than a fast thing.

This doesnt even mention a seller/owner , but instead uses the term 'transferee' who could easily be the RFD to who it was sent, who WOULD  check you had relevant licence slots to possess.
It says nothing about sending tickets off to persons unknown.

To summarise , Im not saying that some force areas dont request you do this , but to me , they are just bending the guidelines (again)

Rewulf I’m am not to sure of your point. It is the whole clause posted for clarity and not bits posted out of context, it relates to the transfer of firearms,   some parts are appertaining to this thread some not, I’m  quite happy to discard the bits that don’t concern us but I never actually said they did just posted the whole clause for clarity and context.

You are correct the act doesn’t mention seller but it states you must follow the instructions on your certificate.

 

“(b) the transferor must comply with any instructions contained in the certificate or permit produced the transferee;”

 

Now please go and look at you own certificate (Clause 3 or now 4b on my last two certs) and read the instruction that says.

“If you are selling shotgun(s) which will be sent or posted to another dealer for the buyer to collect in person you should complete this table and notify the police. The dealer who actually hands over the shotgun(s) should not complete the table or notify the police (except in circumstances which may require police investigation as above).”

Which clearly states that it RFD should not complete the table but the seller should. There is no ambiguity in that statement. If you don’t send your certificate to the seller how do they fill it out?

Then read

3) A failure by the transferor or transferee to comply with subsection (2) above shall be an offence.

Which because you have let the RFD complete table 2 which is against your certificate instructions means you have just broke the law as well as the seller and the RFD. 

The above is NOT guidelines it’s law, if you have a certificate that does not have that instruction on it then you could argue the point but if it’s on there I really don’t see your angle.

 

please read this link written by BASC

 

https://basc.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/downloads/2014/08/REMOTE-FIREARMS-TRANSACTIONS2.pdf

 

[Rewulf]

3 minutes ago, timps said:

The above is NOT guidelines it’s law, if you have a certificate that does not have that instruction on it then you could argue the point but if it’s on there I really don’t see your angle.

Ill check it later , but it appears there must be a lot of people breaking the law ?

[timps]

3 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Ill check it later , but it appears there must be a lot of people breaking the law ?

If your certificate is issued in England or Wales I already know the answer as the The Firearms Rules  which is law in England and Wales stipulates the wording for certificates issued.

Yes people are breaking the law, all they need to do is read their own certificate instructions in the guidance section of their certificate.

But as you have pointed out it’s not the easiest transgression for an FEO to pick up on, and that instruction wasn’t added until 1998.  However GMP have had an audit and hauled over the coals with them re looking at every licence issued and sticking to and enforcing the act like glue now. Other forces maybe more lax.

[Rewulf]

Strangely enough , Ive just got off the phone to my elusive FEO, hes coming round at 8am to go over one of my clubs HO renewal.

Ill bring it up and see what his take is on it.
 

[bluesj]

4 hours ago, timps said:

If your certificate is issued in England or Wales I already know the answer as the The Firearms Rules  which is law in England and Wales stipulates the wording for certificates issued.

Yes people are breaking the law, all they need to do is read their own certificate instructions in the guidance section of their certificate.

But as you have pointed out it’s not the easiest transgression for an FEO to pick up on, and that instruction wasn’t added until 1998.  However GMP have had an audit and hauled over the coals with them re looking at every licence issued and sticking to and enforcing the act like glue now. Other forces maybe more lax.

With the cops looking for reasons to pull people up and take their guns why would anyone think its a good idea not to follow the rules?

[TIGHTCHOKE]

11 minutes ago, bluesj said:

With the cops looking for reasons to pull people up and take their guns why would anyone think its a good idea not to follow the rules?

Is the correct attitude!   

[timps]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

Strangely enough , Ive just got off the phone to my elusive FEO, hes coming round at 8am to go over one of my clubs HO renewal.

Ill bring it up and see what his take is on it.
 

Well if you have that instruction written on your certificate I’m not to sure what you want him to say?

The options are yes you have to comply or no you don’t …..The latter response  would beg the question why is it written on your certificate and why does the firearms act state you must comply.

 

33 minutes ago, bluesj said:

With the cops looking for reasons to pull people up and take their guns why would anyone think its a good idea not to follow the rules?

Exactly, which is why I tell people just to read their own certificate instructions and point them to the legislation that states they must comply. 

[Rewulf]

16 hours ago, timps said:

Well if you have that instruction written on your certificate I’m not to sure what you want him to say?

The instruction on the certificate says nothing about sending your ticket to persons unknown
The BASC advice link , quotes 'posting your certificate' and even makes it look like they are quoted from the HO guidance, they are not, the BASC advice is their own words/advice, which may have come from clarification from firearms licencing at some point ?

Ill accept that it does say the dealer who receives the firearm 'should not' fill out the table, and the seller should do this , on your certificate, it does this in a vague way, which could be made clearer and with more detailed instructions.
It is taken as a given that many people have breached this condition.

Anyway , my FEOs take on it is thus.
i explained the theoretical situation, I have bought gun from person , and have paid for RFD transfer, what is the procedure ?
He said 'I would have thought' RFD your end signs it on to your ticket ?
I referred him to the wording on cert , saying they were not to do this....
He admitted he wasnt sure , but he did say, IMHO I wouldnt be sending my ticket off to persons unknown, especially with a empty slot for a firearm, it could easily be a scam ?
If anything , send it to the RFD at sellers end , so it can be filled out by seller there.

Let me reiterate, Im not saying youre wrong about this, but when FEOs dont know the proper procedure, what chance do we stand ?

[London Best]

What kind of a numpty would send his certificate to ANYONE?

[Rewulf]

15 minutes ago, London Best said:

What kind of a numpty would send his certificate to ANYONE?

Which is mine (and my FEOs) take on it , a criminal could use a forum or Gunmart ect , advertise a gun for sale that doesnt exist.
You request an RFD transfer, for which he asks for you to send your FAC (with spare slot) or SGC to 'his' address, then proceeds to acquire a firearm on the strength of it ?

When the plan is uncovered , the address has no knowledge of it , and the RFD who sold them a gun says a man matching the description in the photo, enquired about a gun , then came and purchased it, probably with the money you sent him for the imaginary gun.
I know what youre thinking , what a far fetched and convoluted plan ?

But when you hear of some scams, its not beyond the realms is it ?
Never mind the fact that someone you dont know has had access to your ticket, knows your address, and whats in your cabinet ?

[HantsRob]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

If anything , send it to the RFD at sellers end , so it can be filled out by seller there.

I've never quite understood why it didn't go to the sending RFD to help manage, and then get put in the gun box and sealed as they usually do. I'd feel happier knowing it transited with the gun than an A5 or A4 envelope.

Or, just an escrow transfer, where the RFDs don't have to sell, but could take full legal ownership to ship but without it being a sale, so no tax/warranty implications, but are "trusted partners" to sign on a certificate.

[timps]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

The instruction on the certificate says nothing about sending your ticket to persons unknown
The BASC advice link , quotes 'posting your certificate' and even makes it look like they are quoted from the HO guidance, they are not, the BASC advice is their own words/advice, which may have come from clarification from firearms licencing at some point ?

Ill accept that it does say the dealer who receives the firearm 'should not' fill out the table, and the seller should do this , on your certificate, it does this in a vague way, which could be made clearer and with more detailed instructions.
It is taken as a given that many people have breached this condition.

Anyway , my FEOs take on it is thus.
i explained the theoretical situation, I have bought gun from person , and have paid for RFD transfer, what is the procedure ?
He said 'I would have thought' RFD your end signs it on to your ticket ?
I referred him to the wording on cert , saying they were not to do this....
He admitted he wasnt sure , but he did say, IMHO I wouldnt be sending my ticket off to persons unknown, especially with a empty slot for a firearm, it could easily be a scam ?
If anything , send it to the RFD at sellers end , so it can be filled out by seller there.

Let me reiterate, Im not saying youre wrong about this, but when FEOs dont know the proper procedure, what chance do we stand ?

I would never post my certificate off to an unknown either, and in all my posts on this thread I have never said you should post it off or it was a good idea. I have only stated that the seller must fill in the cert not the RFD handing it over. How anyone facilitates that bit of the transaction is up to them, I know my cert stays with me. But if you want a remote sale then the seller needs to fill in your cert somehow.

Your FEO’s response is exactly why I posted on an earlier post not to ring or email the FEO for clarification.  His first answer would have seen you breaking the law had you taken it and not shown him the wording.

My points to potential buyers or sellers were:

1: As a buyer just take 5 mins to read the instructions on your certificate, they are legally binding to both you and the seller, and if it states “if you are selling shotgun(s) which will be sent or posted to another dealer for the buyer to collect in person you should complete this table and notify the police. The dealer who actually hands over the shotgun(s) should not complete the table or notify the police”

Or words to that effect then you need the seller to complete table 2 by law so just figure a way that you are both comfortable with.

 2: As a seller you must comply with the instructions on the buyer’s certificate, if you don’t see the certificate how do you know you have complied with all the instructions?  My 2021 cert has more instructions than my old cert hence the move from clause 3 to 4 b. Other forces might have more or less, I don't know and neither do you until you seen it.

 

As far as posting it off, I wouldn't but that's up to the individual.

 

[Rewulf]

1 minute ago, HantsRob said:

I've never quite understood why it didn't go to the sending RFD to help manage, and then get put in the gun box and sealed as they usually do. I'd feel happier knowing it transited with the gun than an A5 or A4 envelope.

This was mentioned by the FEO too , the only issue is you need that ticket to go and collect the gun ?

 

1 minute ago, HantsRob said:

Or, just an escrow transfer, where the RFDs don't have to sell, but could take full legal ownership to ship but without it being a sale, so no tax/warranty implications, but are "trusted partners" to sign on a certificate.

Exactly, this makes far more sense, and I thought , was a similar to what I believed the system to be ?
Either way, its a lot safer than sending your ticket to the seller.

[HantsRob]

14 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

This was mentioned by the FEO too , the only issue is you need that ticket to go and collect the gun ?

 

Exactly, this makes far more sense, and I thought , was a similar to what I believed the system to be ?
Either way, its a lot safer than sending your ticket to the seller.

 

Point 1 - take photo ID like a drivers licence. Your face matches, DOB, and address. Unless you have a Twin, but you'd have that same issue with the paperwork in person! 

Point 2 - I guess it requires quite lengthy debate to change the law for a modern electronic world, but I'd rather pay an extra tenner each side for a validation and escrow service meaning I keep my licence completely at all times. I doubt the investment in legal time is worth it annoyingly.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

I really don't see why people are struggling with this.

I bought a Beretta shotgun from Chris Potters in Kent a couple of months ago.

The deal was done over the phone and my SGC went in the post that evening as a recorded item.

Gun arrived at Wabbitboshers in Kettering on the Wednesday morning and I received my SGC by RM Recorded Delivery the same day.

Mick called me to say the gun had arrived and I drove over that evening with my SGC to collect it.

Couldn't have been much easier to follow the system correctly!

[Rewulf]

22 minutes ago, timps said:

and in all my posts on this thread I have never said you should post it off or it was a good idea.

I know you havent , but the BASC advice you posted does say that you should post it, and as youve said , you wouldnt do that, which I agree with.

22 minutes ago, timps said:

Your FEO’s response is exactly why I posted on an earlier post not to ring or email the FEO for clarification.

The problem is , the advice given on here, and other forums , when there is doubt over a legal issue, is 'Ask your FEO'

23 minutes ago, timps said:

Or words to that effect then you need the seller to complete table 2 by law so just figure a way that you are both comfortable with.

There is only one way to do this, and thats by posting it , if you were going to physically take the cert to the seller , you really wouldnt need the RFD to RFD  service.

23 minutes ago, timps said:

As far as posting it off, I wouldn't but that's up to the individual.

And that means you cant do an RFD  transfer then.
As Ive said , the best way to do it , is transfer the money to seller, who 'gives' it to their RFD , who 'gives' it to your RFD , who 'gives' it to you, and writes it onto your ticket.
I cant see what you have done wrong there.
You havent breached your conditions , as you have received it from the 'owner' , who is your RFD.

The FEO promised to come back with clarification, so will update if that happens.

2 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Couldn't have been much easier to follow the system correctly!

You were dealing with an RFD , not a private seller though ?

[timps]

41 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

And that means you cant do an RFD  transfer then.
As Ive said , the best way to do it , is transfer the money to seller, who 'gives' it to their RFD , who 'gives' it to your RFD , who 'gives' it to you, and writes it onto your ticket.
I cant see what you have done wrong there.
You havent breached your conditions , as you have received it from the 'owner' , who is your RFD.

The FEO promised to come back with clarification, so will update if that happens.

While it might "technically" get around the conditions on your cert you’ve just given a random stranger a load of money as a gift with no legal recourse should they not deliver. As a seller you’ve just given your gun away to a dealer who can now do with it as he wants. I know it’s a lot of if’s … however it’s a lot of trust, more trust than just sending your cert off?

The law takes a dim view of you trying to circumvent it, if you ask a lawyer for clarification, they are going to ask why have you just given £xxxx to a random stranger so he can just give a gun to a random shop and pay them £xx  to give it to another random shop who then gives it to you?

No one is under any illusion that you haven’t bought the gun and tried to circumvent the law therefore any lawyer is going to state the instruction on the cert stands.

Now don’t ask the question of a legal professional and just do it what are the chances of getting caught who knows.