Legal definition of capacity

[timps]

The problem we have is clause 27 for firearms or 28 for shotguns.

"28 Special provisions about shot gun certificates.

[F11(1)Subject to subsection (1A) below, a shot gun certificate shall be granted or, as the case may be, renewed by the chief officer of police if he is satisfied that the applicant can be permitted to possess a shot gun without danger to the public safety or to the peace."

It is such a broad-brush legislation it gives the chief officer of police the ability to refuse a grant or renewal based on whether he/she is satisfied or not which is completely subjective to the individual chief officer of police hence the discrepancies between forces.

Cases have gone to court on security issues and the above sections have been successfully used to win those cases for the police or pass the threshold for reasonableness so costs are not awarded against the police even though they lost the case which makes it a very expensive day out to prove you were right.

The latter happened to a friend of mine and he wished he had just done as they asked as it would have been significantly cheaper and less hassle than court even though he won.

All it takes is the chief of police’s FEO to stand up in court and say he/she is not satisfied with the security arrangements due to a risk assessment, insert whatever drivel about too many guns so will not use the cabinet in a rush for fear of damaging an expensive gun rubbish (yes this was said by a FEO) and section 27 / 28 of the firearms act requires them not to grant or renew. As long as they have some rubbish reason the judge will almost certainly say it will pass the test of reasonableness to ask the court for a ruling therefore costs are not awarded should you win.

The advice from my friend’s experience is pick your battles wisely as the only people that win in court are the ones paid to be there.

[Nuke]

It's easier around here, if the cabinet is approved (manufactured according to standard) you can store up to 20 hunting rifles/shotguns per cabinet.

/M

[Imperfection]

I have guns stacked top to tail in one of my cabinet. The feo was fine about it because end of the day they're secured. I guess it comes down to your particular force and how much common sense they have.

[udderlyoffroad]

7 hours ago, timps said:

As long as they have some rubbish reason the judge will almost certainly say it will pass the test of reasonableness to ask the court for a ruling therefore costs are not awarded should you win.

Hence my 'strange hill to die on' statement.  Pick your battles, but standing your ground against an FEO with a different idea from you as to how many guns fit in your cabinet seems like it will end up costing you way more money than an additional cabinet.

[B725]

The response from BASC was there is no legal definition of capacity as long as security has not been compromised, if they go in without forcing the door shut. 

[Spr1985]

I had Essex firearms enquiry officer on the phone this morning after notifying of a new gun on Sunday, apparently I have 6 guns in a three gun cabinet (I don’t) ….he very quickly realised they made an error with a duplicate serial number and in fact I had five, long and short of it is Essex firearms allow 1 over specified cabinet capacity. I explained the situation (the new acquisition is short term)  and that I assumed providing the door closes properly and locks properly and is therefore secure that I could have as many as I wanted. He reiterated there stance on it and I apologised for my error. He was absolutely fine with the explanation and that was the end of the matter. 
so anyone in Essex it’s one above advertised cabinet capacity. 

[MWildfowler]

15 hours ago, Spr1985 said:

I had Essex firearms enquiry officer on the phone this morning after notifying of a new gun on Sunday, apparently I have 6 guns in a three gun cabinet (I don’t) ….he very quickly realised they made an error with a duplicate serial number and in fact I had five, long and short of it is Essex firearms allow 1 over specified cabinet capacity. I explained the situation (the new acquisition is short term)  and that I assumed providing the door closes properly and locks properly and is therefore secure that I could have as many as I wanted. He reiterated there stance on it and I apologised for my error. He was absolutely fine with the explanation and that was the end of the matter. 
so anyone in Essex it’s one above advertised cabinet capacity. 

Very good to know. Thank you. 

[button]

On 06/09/2022 at 18:04, Spr1985 said:

I had Essex firearms enquiry officer on the phone this morning after notifying of a new gun on Sunday, apparently I have 6 guns in a three gun cabinet (I don’t) ….he very quickly realised they made an error with a duplicate serial number and in fact I had five, long and short of it is Essex firearms allow 1 over specified cabinet capacity. I explained the situation (the new acquisition is short term)  and that I assumed providing the door closes properly and locks properly and is therefore secure that I could have as many as I wanted. He reiterated there stance on it and I apologised for my error. He was absolutely fine with the explanation and that was the end of the matter. 
so anyone in Essex it’s one above advertised cabinet capacity. 

But what is specified capacity? I bought a 7 rifle cabinet, 7 dividers in foam, quickly pulled that out and it holds 15 shotguns no issue! 

[Spr1985]

11 minutes ago, button said:

But what is specified capacity? I bought a 7 rifle cabinet, 7 dividers in foam, quickly pulled that out and it holds 15 shotguns no issue! 

Well I would imagine it’s the manufacture’s specification. Therefore what it was advertised as at retail. I’d take a punt at an industry standard existing with regard to dimensions and stated capacity. As I said I explained my thought process on the matter (if it fits in and the door closes with ease and locks with ease then it’s ok” it was met with a resounding “no” the same resounding “no” that I would give if asked, is it worth arguing the toss and risking my ticket? 

[Windswept]

I've picked two 2nd hand cabinets, identical size but one has foam inserts for shotguns and one for rifles. I've no idea what capacity they were sold new as but the shotgun cabinet foam inserts can hold twice as many guns as the rifle. Hopefully my FEO will have some common sense.

[Fisheruk]

On 23/08/2022 at 17:24, B725 said:

It's because I've bought another two guns but all seven I own fit in it ok ,the firearms team want to know it's capacity for some reason.

Send them a photo 

[button]

2 hours ago, Spr1985 said:

Well I would imagine it’s the manufacture’s specification. Therefore what it was advertised as at retail. I’d take a punt at an industry standard existing with regard to dimensions and stated capacity. As I said I explained my thought process on the matter (if it fits in and the door closes with ease and locks with ease then it’s ok” it was met with a resounding “no” the same resounding “no” that I would give if asked, is it worth arguing the toss and risking my ticket? 

Probably not worth arguing but the fact that they add one on to the specified capacity shows its a farce, how do they arrive at 1 and not 2 or even 3? 

[Spr1985]

1 hour ago, button said:

Probably not worth arguing but the fact that they add one on to the specified capacity shows its a farce, how do they arrive at 1 and not 2 or even 3? 

I am in complete agreement with you. As far as I'm concerned  if it fits and the door closes and locks I honestly can’t see the problem. Unfortunately this is what happens when things are left to interpretation you get different interpretations across different forces it should be set in stone one way or another and not left to tom Richard and harry in the local firearms office to decide as they see fit. 

[ehb102]

Such ********! You can hold an awful lot more single barrel .410s than you can 12 bore semi autos. I must be middle aged, I want to suggest that they should apply rational thought!

[Spr1985]

3 hours ago, ehb102 said:

Such ********! You can hold an awful lot more single barrel .410s than you can 12 bore semi autos. I must be middle aged, I want to suggest that they should apply rational thought!

Funny you say that, it was a single barrel single shot .410 poachers gun that caused the phone call 🤣. But yes rational thought would certainly help in a lot of situations 

[mattsccm]

My cabinets are all too old to be labeled as anything and they all have no slots, just foam and some strips of pipe lagging if I want to ram them full.  My FEO wandered along, (the ladder to the loft put her off a bit, the first time she came and has never been up there since) and suggested that I had scope for at least 20 guns in 3 cabinets. "Shall we see" she said. Wrong! 24 at least.