Borescope inspections at RFD’s.

[Scully]

A comment in the sales section about the poor prices that s/h rifles attract reminded me of something that happened to me at a dealers a few years ago. 
I took a Tikka T3 to a dealer as part of a PX deal for what to me was an expensive gun, and one of the staff decided to run a Borescope up it. Fair enough.
After doing so he informed me the barrel was ‘shot out’ and could ‘give way at any moment’ so wouldn’t take it on. Really? Says I. A second member of staff queried this, possibly at the thought of losing a potential sale of the shotgun I was after, but the former muttered something to him and then wandered off. 
Anyhow, the deal was eventually done 
at a later date, but didn’t include the T3. 
The T3 was s/h when I bought it from a dealer at a game fair, so could easily have been in that claimed potential condition when I bought it as far as I know, but I’d shot loads of fox and roe with it in my ownership, and continued to do so, with it delivering pinpoint accuracy, until I eventually sold it back to that same game fair dealer in PX for something else. He never even mentioned putting a Borescope down it. As far as I’m aware it’s still out there delivering the goods. 
Not too long ago I was in the same RFD and this time another member of staff was telling a bloke the exact same thing about his barrel, while running a Borescope through it, as I’d been told about mine. It was a Remington. 
Has anyone on here run a Borescope through a s/h barrel at a dealers prior to buying? Has anyone on here bought a s/h rifle only to find the barrel ‘give way’? 

[scarecrow243]

did he show you the shot out bore if he did not he was telling big porkies 

[Scully]

6 minutes ago, scarecrow243 said:

did he show you the shot out bore if he did not he was telling big porkies 

No he didn’t, but then I wouldn’t know what I was looking for to be honest. 

[scarecrow243]

some try that **** so they can get it cheaper or don't want it as its too much money if it was me i would not deal with him again

[oowee]

Ivythorne near Street are pretty keen on this and will list faults on guns they sell on Gun trader. They seem to know there stuff.

One way or another if a dealer does not want the gun for whatever reason they will find a way out of the deal. 

[oldypigeonpopper]

Hello, shot out, 🤔🤔 how can lead bullets damage a steel barrel ? more so a tikka , years ago I went to do a deal with Allsports in Gloucester , PX a AA S 200 22, it was working fine and putting out 11 plus ft LLB, we better check the power, guess what , it needs a service sir 🤔, that will be £60 less, hence I told them to stick the px,  that was Ron Meadows  a well know gun shop owner, 

Edited October 2, 2022 by oldypigeonpopper

[Lloyd90]

1 hour ago, oowee said:

Ivythorne near Street are pretty keen on this and will list faults on guns they sell on Gun trader. They seem to know there stuff.

One way or another if a dealer does not want the gun for whatever reason they will find a way out of the deal. 

Steve Beaty is I believe highly regarded and does a lot with rifles. 
 

He knows his stuff and posts honest write ups of rifles with good deals. He also has a decent rifle range on site. 
 

 

I went into a gunshop near mine yesterday and enquired as wanting to change my 243 for something lighter etc, the second it comes out the slip the guy is making oooohh aaahhh noises and you just know the silly offer is coming. 
 

Offered me peanuts, and messed me about for ages without just naming a price. 
 

Even if I didn’t trade it in I was looking for another rifle to buy but got fed up of the bloke and walked up, deciding whatever I do buy next will be bought somewhere else. 

[Vince Green]

No rifle barrel will ever give way because it is "shot out" that only means the start of the rifling has become a little eroded by the hot gasses and lost its crisp edge.

It virtually never happens in a hunting rifle. It will happen in a target rifle over a few thousand rounds but its progressive and there may be some loss of accuracy in the final stages or there may not.

It never becomes a safety issue 

[London Best]

I sold a .375. Dealer played with his borescope and informed me the barrel was on the way out. I bought the rifle new and knew the round count was only two hundred!

[udderlyoffroad]

11 hours ago, oowee said:

Ivythorne near Street are pretty keen on this and will list faults on guns they sell on Gun trader. They seem to know there stuff.

Another vote for Ivythorn if anyone's local.

10 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

I went into a gunshop near mine yesterday and enquired as wanting to change my 243 for something lighter etc, the second it comes out the slip the guy is making oooohh aaahhh noises and you just know the silly offer is coming. 

Can you PM me which RFD that was Lloyd?  I think I know which one...

[Lloyd90]

Just now, udderlyoffroad said:

Another vote for Ivythorn if anyone's local.

Can you PM me which RFD that was Lloyd?  I think I know which one...

He told me the barrel was pitted etc. 

 

I simply said “it shoots bullet on bullet” and he shut up. 

[London Best]

2 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

He told me the barrel was pitted etc. 

 

I simply said “it shoots bullet on bullet” and he shut up. 

The ONLY qualification needed to be a dealer is a lack of scruples.

[Vince Green]

2 hours ago, London Best said:

The ONLY qualification needed to be a dealer is a lack of scruples.

A dealer is not a gunsmith. I have said this many times.

But I have seen a fair few rifles with barrels that have never been cleaned because the owner never knew they had to. (Or knew how to)

Years ago most shooters had been soldiers or In the cadets. Or they had uncles and fathers who made sure the rifle was properly cleaned before it was put away.

[Rim Fire]

8 hours ago, Vince Green said:

No rifle barrel will ever give way because it is "shot out" that only means the start of the rifling has become a little eroded by the hot gasses and lost its crisp edge.

It virtually never happens in a hunting rifle. It will happen in a target rifle over a few thousand rounds but its progressive and there may be some loss of accuracy in the final stages or there may not.

It never becomes a safety issue 

This is spot on it takes a life time for a hunting rifle to shoot out that's why a target shooter will use a heavy barrel to shoot with. a heavy barrel will take longer to get to hot and lose accuracy 

Edited October 3, 2022 by Rim Fire

[Lloyd90]

7 hours ago, Vince Green said:

A dealer is not a gunsmith. I have said this many times.

But I have seen a fair few rifles with barrels that have never been cleaned because the owner never knew they had to. (Or knew how to)

Years ago most shooters had been soldiers or In the cadets. Or they had uncles and fathers who made sure the rifle was properly cleaned before it was put away.

What impact do you find the lack of cleaning genuinely has though? 
 

Minor pitting? Worse?

 

I was chatting with @oowee today and he has a mate who shot out a rifle he bought second hand. 
 

The man’s idea of shot out was 1.5” groups at 100 yards. This is still well within the acceptable group size to kill deer and pretty much most other things you’d want to shoot at in my limited opinion. 
 

Some lads buy brand new rifles and are happy with 1.5” groups. 

[Vince Green]

9 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

What impact do you find the lack of cleaning genuinely has though? 
 

Minor pitting? Worse?

 

I was chatting with @oowee today and he has a mate who shot out a rifle he bought second hand. 
 

The man’s idea of shot out was 1.5” groups at 100 yards. This is still well within the acceptable group size to kill deer and pretty much most other things you’d want to shoot at in my limited opinion. 
 

Some lads buy brand new rifles and are happy with 1.5” groups. 

Group size can be down to many things. Gas erosion is but one of them. There are a lot of other possibilities much more likely.

A damn good clean with PROPER  copper remover and a different brand of ammo would be my starting point.

You won't believe the amount of copper fouling  you can get out of some rifle barrels. They have never been cleaned properly, if at all.

And on the other hand, rifles with very noticeable gas erosion can, and often do, still shoot perfectly. It's not a given that worn bore equals bad group.

Apart from some of the ultra high velocity calibres which do rip the guts out of a barrel. With modern steels and modern powders I would say its almost impossible to shoot out a hunting rifle in several lifetimes.

Target rifles are a different story. Some of the practical rifle shooters get through several thousand rounds a year.

My mate does, I would say at a guess his rifle has consumed upwards of 20,000 rounds of surplus 5.56mm ammo over the past ten years and he is still happy with the results

Edited October 4, 2022 by Vince Green

[oowee]

10 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

What impact do you find the lack of cleaning genuinely has though? 
 

Minor pitting? Worse?

 

I was chatting with @oowee today and he has a mate who shot out a rifle he bought second hand. 
 

The man’s idea of shot out was 1.5” groups at 100 yards. This is still well within the acceptable group size to kill deer and pretty much most other things you’d want to shoot at in my limited opinion. 
 

Some lads buy brand new rifles and are happy with 1.5” groups. 

I hear what you say but 1.5 inches of a rest is different from the group you are likely to shoot of sticks in the field. Increase the range and its worse. Deer might be a big target side on but often I want to know the round is going right where I point it. The quartering buck yesterday was only offering me a target only 3 inches wide. 

1 hour ago, Vince Green said:

Group size can be down to many things. Gas erosion is but one of them. There are a lot of other possibilities much more likely.

A damn good clean with PROPER  copper remover and a different brand of ammo would be my starting point.

You won't believe the amount of copper fouling  you can get out of some rifle barrels. They have never been cleaned properly, if at all.

And on the other hand, rifles with very noticeable gas erosion can, and often do, still shoot perfectly. It's not a given that worn bore equals bad group.

Apart from some of the ultra high velocity calibres which do rip the guts out of a barrel. With modern steels and modern powders I would say its almost impossible to shoot out a hunting rifle in several lifetimes.

Target rifles are a different story. Some of the practical rifle shooters get through several thousand rounds a year.

My mate does, I would say at a guess his rifle has consumed upwards of 20,000 rounds of surplus 5.56mm ammo over the past ten years and he is still happy with the results

Steve at Ivythorn said that one of the biggest dangers was damage to the crown from leaving on the moderator, ? 

[Vince Green]

8 hours ago, oowee said:

Steve at Ivythorn said that one of the biggest dangers was damage to the crown from leaving on the moderator, ? 

I don't really get that because the moderator should  not touch the crown. I would have to see a more detailed explanation of what he is suggesting. 

 

[Zetter]

1 hour ago, Vince Green said:

I don't really get that because the moderator should  not touch the crown. I would have to see a more detailed explanation of what he is suggesting. 

 

Its from all the rubbish and residue caught in the moderator which is pretty corrosive and as it warms up if the moderator is left on in the cabinet it can corrode the crown and the end of the barrel as it runs down.

This is the the theory anyway. General recommendations from all I have seen on centerfires is to store with the moderators off.  

[Scully]

My T3 sported a heavy ‘Varmint’ barrel and was always cleaned after use and the mod’ removed. It was a fabulous bit of kit and as I said is still giving good service as far as I know. 
A mate has a Sako 75 in .243 Win. Quite an old model now and it has shot more foxes and corvids in its life as a Fell sheep farmers tool, than I could care to mention. It has been used and abused, is never cleaned and is stored with the mod’ on, which is an old Wildcat and vents spectacularly at night! It is still in use on an almost weekly basis and always delivers. 🤷‍♂️
 

[Zetter]

32 minutes ago, Scully said:

My T3 sported a heavy ‘Varmint’ barrel and was always cleaned after use and the mod’ removed. It was a fabulous bit of kit and as I said is still giving good service as far as I know. 
A mate has a Sako 75 in .243 Win. Quite an old model now and it has shot more foxes and corvids in its life as a Fell sheep farmers tool, than I could care to mention. It has been used and abused, is never cleaned and is stored with the mod’ on, which is an old Wildcat and vents spectacularly at night! It is still in use on an almost weekly basis and always delivers. 🤷‍♂️
 

I bought as my first propper centrefire at Sako 75 in .243 off our old keeper. It was an ex forestry commission rifle and was his third hand. Cleaning was shall we say optional when he had it, hell the sock had paint flecks on it from when he was painting the ceiling. But it was a tack driver you could throw anything through it and it would print about a 1/2" group.

I did get it borescoped once just for interest and it was pitted but it never affected the grouping at all. In the end I pushed the boat out for my 50th and rebarreled it as a semi custom with a slower twist barrel for copper and it continues to be a tack driver. Sako 75 are bomb proof.  

[Scully]

Just now, Zetter said:

I bought as my first propper centrefire at Sako 75 in .243 off our old keeper. It was an ex forestry commission rifle and was his third hand. Cleaning was shall we say optional when he had it, hell the sock had paint flecks on it from when he was painting the ceiling. But it was a tack driver you could throw anything through it and it would print about a 1/2" group.

I did get it borescoped once just for interest and it was pitted but it never affected the grouping at all. In the end I pushed the boat out for my 50th and rebarreled it as a semi custom with a slower twist barrel for copper and it continues to be a tack driver. Sako 75 are bomb proof.  

They would appear to be so indeed. Mates had his from new and it just continues to deliver. 

[Rim Fire]

On 03/10/2022 at 22:25, Lloyd90 said:

What impact do you find the lack of cleaning genuinely has though? 
 

Minor pitting? Worse?

 

I was chatting with @oowee today and he has a mate who shot out a rifle he bought second hand. 
 

The man’s idea of shot out was 1.5” groups at 100 yards. This is still well within the acceptable group size to kill deer and pretty much most other things you’d want to shoot at in my limited opinion. 
 

Some lads buy brand new rifles and are happy with 1.5” groups. 

Hi Lloyd i don't clean any of my rifles until i start to lose zero my mate has not cleaned his 308 for 5 yrs and still shoots within an inch groups                                           I did load some 308 myself last week and they was a different load to my usual load so i did clean my rifle to start off with a new load and i found it took about 5 rounds before it got consistent grouping i wont clean that barrel until next year  

On 04/10/2022 at 08:38, oowee said:

Steve at Ivythorn said that one of the biggest dangers was damage to the crown from leaving on the moderator, ? 

 i get this with my Howa 1500 i don't leave the mod on but the crown dose tend to have rusty color to it so i clean with a little 3 in 1 oil 

Edited October 5, 2022 by Rim Fire

[London Best]

My mate had a beautiful Mannlicher 7x57. His Scottish stalker friend told him you must never clean a rifle bore. Within 25 years it was scrap. 
Never clean a rifle bore only applies to .22 rimfire, and even then cleaning does no harm.

[Rim Fire]

38 minutes ago, London Best said:

My mate had a beautiful Mannlicher 7x57. His Scottish stalker friend told him you must never clean a rifle bore. Within 25 years it was scrap. 
Never clean a rifle bore only applies to .22 rimfire, and even then cleaning does no harm.

25 years is a long time with no cleaning at all