Another shotkam thread...

[Pops_Hants]

Apologies for starting yet another shotkam thread, I've searched this forum a few times and found lots of posts regarding discounted sales, setting them up and some useful videos and pictures.

 

However, what I really want to know is - did it improve your shooting?

I'm early in my shooting career and miss more than I hit, I've made some changes, had some lessons and I have seen improvement, however, I still have no idea why I miss when I do. Very rarely can I see shot pattern etc and therefore I am looking at all the help available. There's plenty of people on the tinterweb that will say shotkam is brilliant etc, but I am not so inclined to follow the trends on youtube or reviews on the shotkam website.

 

PW member to member, if you've used them - did they help, and how much effort is it to review in the field on your phone? I've tried rewatching go pro videos instantly and it's incredibly time consuming to watch them on the phone.

 

TIA

[vmaxphil]

Before you spend out on a shotkam get someone to video you shooting as you whoud on a day out with mates, you will then see if you have a fault that you are not aware of, I had someone video me as I was missing over the top a lot and watching the video it was apparent I was lifting my head looking for the clay. If all is well try a shotkam at least you'll have hours of fun on a Sunday afternoon 😁

[TK421]

It’s all down to hours behind the gun practicing, there’s no shortcuts. Better to spend the money on a good coach and some cartridges and practice the targets you struggle with. All depends on what your goals are also, Sunday shooting or CPSA climbing the ranks. 
Just practice, practice, practice and it will come to you in the end. 

Edited November 13, 2022 by TK421
Spelling

[Scully]

1 hour ago, TK421 said:

It’s all down to hours behind the gun practicing, there’s no shortcuts. Better to spend the money on a good coach and some cartridges and practice the targets you struggle with. All depends on what your goals are also, Sunday shooting or CPSA climbing the ranks. 
Jusr practice, practice, practice and it will come to you in the end. 

This. A shotkam will only show where you were aiming the gun that particular shot. If there are other issues which make you inconsistent, then you need someone to find out what they are and correct them. 

[old'un]

I have never used one but looking at some of the videos on here I cannot see how they will tell you if its a miss behind, in front, high or low.

As been said, get someone who knows what they are doing to find out what you are doing wrong or any problems with gunfit/mount.

Mind you having said that I do enjoy watching some of these shotkam videos.

[TK421]

Missing targets and wondering why never leaves you, with lots of practice you just come up with better excuses 😉

[Stuarta]

I bought a Shotkam and enjoyed watching the playback, but I honestly don't think it improved my shooting. I sold it and went to a good coach, we worked on keeping my cheek on the stock, slowing my mount and swing, foot position, all sorts of things that the shotkam can't tell you. Shooting rounds of skeet after the lesson proved that it was money well spent in my case.

[sishyplops]

Absolutely worked for me, i shot  a variety of targets and on playback slowed down you could clearly see I was in front of everything , I sold it pretty much got what I paid for it as bought it second hand , I’m now looking to get another (yes I know should of kept it but the last one was about 4 years ago) new gun, new glasses, cartridge change etc and got troubles again , so will prob buy the new version unless I can get a mk3 at a good price 

[Centrepin]

I had one and yes you can see where your shot goes the pattern and lots of other things.

You need an incredibly good memory (in your head) to remember every shot on even a 50 bird clay shoot and then play it back and relate to it on screen. Yes you see it was, for example behind but can you remember why on that particular shot.

It's better on live quarry as they're more memorable or relatable later. 

Did it improve my shooting, No.

Did I enjoy using it and get my moneys worth, Yes. It also sold immediately second hand for a good price.

Would I have another, Yes.

I'm sure others have or will say there's nothing beats lead in the air to improve, so if you have £470 to spend, either buy a couple of lessons or spend it at a good clay ground.

Even if you don't learn from your shotkam at least you'll have a few memories on film.

 

 

[Shotkam]

Having used a ShotKam constantly for years and probably reviewed approaching 5000 recordings, I can say without a shadow of a doubt that this device is had the most dramatic effect on improving my shooting than anything I have spent money on besides practice. That said, I shall be selling my Gen 3 Shotkam on here soon, as I like to change it every year if possible while still in factory condition.

Many people I meet have bought one and kept it a short while then sold it.

Owning one is like owning a Violin - you can't expect to master it after a few months.

The ability to analyse the footage only comes with practice and with practice you will be able to look at your / anyone's shooting and see where and why they are missing. Any trends in their shooting that need addressing are visible to the experienced viewer.

This is not a quick fix device, but if you are a patient person then it is invaluable.

To improve your clay shooting you need discipline and patience - never consider running before you can walk, in other words head off clay shooting, shoot 7 stands and think this is really helping your shooting, as any improvement will be very short lived.

 

Start on skeet, as this is a discipline that is the same wherever you are in the UK. It will teach you how angle affects lead and how the 3 main shooting methods do also.

I would work on no more than 2 stations on each visit to a ground - say 50 - 75 birds and similar birds e.g. Station 1 high house and Station 7 low house, as of course both of these are going away birds.

You need to be able to absolutely inkball a particular clay before advancing to say Station 2 High and Station 6 low.

That is the only way you will build that muscle memory.

Others may disagree, but I can only talk from experience.

Good luck to you.

[TK421]

11 hours ago, Shotkam said:

Having used a ShotKam constantly for years and probably reviewed approaching 5000 recordings, I can say without a shadow of a doubt that this device is had the most dramatic effect on improving my shooting than anything I have spent money on besides practice. That said, I shall be selling my Gen 3 Shotkam on here soon, as I like to change it every year if possible while still in factory condition.

 

With a user name like Shotkam I’d expect a positive appraisal, also that’s a hell of a lot of recordings to review must of took ages, I’d of had no time for shooting reviewing all that footage 😂 
 

I find it interesting that you mention “I can say without a shadow of a doubt that this device is had the most dramatic effect on improving my shooting than anything I have spent money on”  yet in another post you stated that “I've learnt more from Ben Husthwaite's approach to shooting in 8 weeks on how to shoot consistently than after a lifetime of shooting. Before he appeared on the scene I though I knew a fair bit about how to shoot - after -  I soon realised I knew very little. There is no quick fix, shortcuts etc. its all about executing the processes that goes into making successful shots, combined with regular practice.”  Bit confused here? I agree with the second statement on coaches, maybe not your particularly choice of coach but certainly paid for lessons with at least a CPSA registered one if you’re shooting comps. Also noticed you’ve sold 2 Shotkams this year already? Why change them twice in one year? Just my observations 🧐 
 

Personally, as mentioned previously it’s all about hours behind the gun. We all suffered the same issues when first starting out, this is when most look for short cuts to fix this, this is also where the snake oil is at its most attractive as well. There are no shortcuts, over time and regardless of the various gadgets you can buy you develop an eye for where you’re missing, a feel for the bird in relation to your barrels and shot, this is what it’s all about, it takes years to develop and further years to hone and craft the skill further. Another point is you can’t use a shotkam in a comp so what good is it on some funky bird that you’ve never seen before? My advise is we’ve survived years without these gadgets, stick to the old fashioned methods of practice, graft and hard work, you game will reflect this in the long run and you will become a more competent shooter.
 

What I will add though is they’re quite interesting to use from a coaching point of view to show a novice shooter what they’re doing on certain shots, also the novelty thing for a faff about for Sunday shooters, but for me outside of that and also depending on what the aim of your game is they are nothing more that barrel weights and furniture. There’s a reason why you see so many for sale second hand on a regular basis.  You simply Can’t replace hours of practice, please understand that this is all my opinion of course.

Edited November 14, 2022 by TK421

[old'un]

13 hours ago, Shotkam said:

Having used a ShotKam constantly for years and probably reviewed approaching 5000 recordings, I can say without a shadow of a doubt that this device is had the most dramatic effect on improving my shooting than anything I have spent money on besides practice. That said, I shall be selling my Gen 3 Shotkam on here soon, as I like to change it every year if possible while still in factory condition.

Many people I meet have bought one and kept it a short while then sold it.

Owning one is like owning a Violin - you can't expect to master it after a few months.

The ability to analyse the footage only comes with practice and with practice you will be able to look at your / anyone's shooting and see where and why they are missing. Any trends in their shooting that need addressing are visible to the experienced viewer.

This is not a quick fix device, but if you are a patient person then it is invaluable.

To improve your clay shooting you need discipline and patience - never consider running before you can walk, in other words head off clay shooting, shoot 7 stands and think this is really helping your shooting, as any improvement will be very short lived.

 

Start on skeet, as this is a discipline that is the same wherever you are in the UK. It will teach you how angle affects lead and how the 3 main shooting methods do also.

I would work on no more than 2 stations on each visit to a ground - say 50 - 75 birds and similar birds e.g. Station 1 high house and Station 7 low house, as of course both of these are going away birds.

You need to be able to absolutely inkball a particular clay before advancing to say Station 2 High and Station 6 low.

That is the only way you will build that muscle memory.

Others may disagree, but I can only talk from experience.

Good luck to you.

You don't need a shotkam, you already have the means to record the shot, the speed, the range and the hit or miss, its called memory.

[Pops_Hants]

Thanks all for your replies, I've been reading over the weekend and thoroughly appreciate the input.

 

On 13/11/2022 at 08:22, vmaxphil said:

Before you spend out on a shotkam get someone to video you shooting as you whoud on a day out with mates, you will then see if you have a fault that you are not aware of, I had someone video me as I was missing over the top a lot and watching the video it was apparent I was lifting my head looking for the clay. If all is well try a shotkam at least you'll have hours of fun on a Sunday afternoon 😁

This is a great shout, hadn't thought of doing that first. I've had a couple of lessons but I do think you shoot differently on a lesson, plus, you only try a handful of targets, so perhaps on the more challenging ones I might be creating bad habits.

 

22 hours ago, TK421 said:

Missing targets and wondering why never leaves you, with lots of practice you just come up with better excuses 😉

I like this a lot 😆 I was shooting at the weekend, a chap with a DT11 pro and all the gear was there, he was humble as anything and admitted he had a bank of excuses ready as it wouldn't be the gun hah!

 

I think for now, I'll keep putting the lead down the barrels, get a friend to film a few targets, have another couple of lessons and then perhaps revisit the idea if I don't see any improvement.
Whilst I don't overly mind the investment, as I know you'll more or less get your money back, and I think the footage would be useful to help understand misses, it's the reviewing part that gets me. I regularly shoot 150+ on a day, so to go through 75 videos or so, and try to remember each one i think might be a bit much. That being said, I'd like try two or three stands that I find tricky and try to work out the misses

[Shotkam]

2 hours ago, TK421 said:

With a user name like Shotkam I’d expect a positive appraisal, also that’s a hell of a lot of recordings to review must of took ages, I’d of had no time for shooting reviewing all that footage 😂 
 

I find it interesting that you mention “I can say without a shadow of a doubt that this device is had the most dramatic effect on improving my shooting than anything I have spent money on”  yet in another post you stated that “I've learnt more from Ben Husthwaite's approach to shooting in 8 weeks on how to shoot consistently than after a lifetime of shooting. Before he appeared on the scene I though I knew a fair bit about how to shoot - after -  I soon realised I knew very little. There is no quick fix, shortcuts etc. its all about executing the processes that goes into making successful shots, combined with regular practice.”  Bit confused here? I agree with the second statement on coaches, maybe not your particularly choice of coach but certainly paid for lessons with at least a CPSA registered one if you’re shooting comps. Also noticed you’ve sold 2 Shotkams this year already? Why change them twice in one year? Just my observations 🧐 
 

Personally, as mentioned previously it’s all about hours behind the gun. We all suffered the same issues when first starting out, this is when most look for short cuts to fix this, this is also where the snake oil is at its most attractive as well. There are no shortcuts, over time and regardless of the various gadgets you can buy you develop an eye for where you’re missing, a feel for the bird in relation to your barrels and shot, this is what it’s all about, it takes years to develop and further years to hone and craft the skill further. Another point is you can’t use a shotkam in a comp so what good is it on some funky bird that you’ve never seen before? My advise is we’ve survived years without these gadgets, stick to the old fashioned methods of practice, graft and hard work, you game will reflect this in the long run and you will become a more competent shooter.
 

What I will add though is they’re quite interesting to use from a coaching point of view to show a novice shooter what they’re doing on certain shots, also the novelty thing for a faff about for Sunday shooters, but for me outside of that and also depending on what the aim of your game is they are nothing more that barrel weights and furniture. There’s a reason why you see so many for sale second hand on a regular basis.  You simply Can’t replace hours of practice, please understand that this is all my opinion of course.

Interesting comments and some valid points. Like you say, each individual has their personal view. My view has formed from personal hard earned experience, combined with some of the best coaches I follow.

Following established coaches like Ben Husthwaite has given me an education that there is of course more than the traditionally adopted swing through method to shoot driven birds etc. in fact there are of course 5 regularly used methods.

Yes, I did say “I've learnt more from Ben Husthwaite's approach to shooting in 8 weeks on how to shoot consistently ........"  and that is true, however I learnt the 'theory' of 'how to shoot consistently'  from BH and many other like Ed Solomans etc. Only when I learnt how to get the best from a ShotKam could I effectively put the theory into practice as it allowed my to quantify my mistakes and make changes to improve.

A ShotKam may not be for everyone, but more and more coaches use them and I have certainly helped a few with there shooting after reviewing how they shoot.

My ShotKam viewing has been also that of well known shooting names, not just my footage.

I have only sold one ShotKam this year and it was not sold through pigeon watch though, even though I listed it on here on 2 occasions.

It takes a time and patience to get the very best out of a ShotKam, it is not a quick fix if you are going it alone, which is one of the main reasons why you see a number for sale as they don't suit everyone's character.

[old'un]

11 minutes ago, Pops_Hants said:

Thanks all for your replies, I've been reading over the weekend and thoroughly appreciate the input.

 

This is a great shout, hadn't thought of doing that first. I've had a couple of lessons but I do think you shoot differently on a lesson, plus, you only try a handful of targets, so perhaps on the more challenging ones I might be creating bad habits.

 

I like this a lot 😆 I was shooting at the weekend, a chap with a DT11 pro and all the gear was there, he was humble as anything and admitted he had a bank of excuses ready as it wouldn't be the gun hah!

 

I think for now, I'll keep putting the lead down the barrels, get a friend to film a few targets, have another couple of lessons and then perhaps revisit the idea if I don't see any improvement.
Whilst I don't overly mind the investment, as I know you'll more or less get your money back, and I think the footage would be useful to help understand misses, it's the reviewing part that gets me. I regularly shoot 150+ on a day, so to go through 75 videos or so, and try to remember each one i think might be a bit much. That being said, I'd like try two or three stands that I find tricky and try to work out the misses

If you cannot work out why you are missing or better still, being told where/why you are missing, then how will looking at footage of the miss help?

[Shotkam]

The whole point of a Shotkam is that you can review the shot, frame by frame if you wish, which with experience, you can see where / why you have missed.

Of course the critical issue to address with is miss is why - 'the process'.

You can see how the shot builds and comes together and make corrections as required.

By the way I have no links with ShotKam the brand !

 

[Pops_Hants]

7 minutes ago, old'un said:

If you cannot work out why you are missing or better still, being told where/why you are missing, then how will looking at footage of the miss help?

The idea of shotkam is to slow down the footage, frame by frame so you can see the lead shot, this will then help you determine where you're missing.

 

If I'm told I am over, under in front or behind, then that's great, but 

• You either need a good instructor or friend to help with this, who actually knows what they're talking about. It's not about having the qualification, but the true experience to see where the shot is. This is something I cannot do, I cannot see the pattern when I or friends shoot 99% of the time.
• It relies on either spending on a lesson or having a friend with you when you're doing this.
• You need to be able to understand how far in front, and what you were aiming at to cause the miss

 

With a shotkam, I can go to a site, pick two or three stands, shoot (at) 10 clays and miss, review the footage there and then and make adjustments. If the the camera is aligned properly, then the crosshairs should align with what I am seeing at the end of the barrel, and tweak it.

Now, this is all in my head and just my thoughts, I could well be wrong, but that's how I see the shotkam as being useful. The tricky bit is either going to be, that footage is not good enough on your phone, so in the field review is not possible, or, I need to be bothered about reviewing footage when I get home, remember the stands and each target, and then implement that next time I go out.

[TK421]

Most issues when first starting out shooting come from many other things than what a $h1tkam picks up on. Gun mount, feet position, reading the bird, hold point, kill point etc etc…  arguably the extra weight on the barrels negates and benefits in fact I could argue it could slow down your swing through or add extra momentum? Shooting with a shotkam on the end of your barrels will feel very different to shooting without them that’s for sure. 

buy one try it out only way for you to be sure, personally I’d spend my money elsewhere as in this game things can get unnecessarily over complicated very quickly. Keep things simple, keep as many constants in your game as you can and just keep shooting. It will come to you eventually, but it will take practice. 

Edited November 14, 2022 by TK421

[HantsRob]

1 minute ago, TK421 said:

Most issues when first starting out shooting come from many other things than what a $h1tkam picks up on. Gun mount, feet position, reading the bird, hold point, kill point etc etc…  

 

To be fair, that's some advice I gave Pops myself. If you know the bird is going to be sky high, don't lower your barrels. Understand the pickup, hold and kill points. I didn't do a good job of it as I glossed over it, but on my last lesson with Don Brunt most of the work was looking at the trap, knowing where it'll fly, where a sweet spot is etc. I try to do that every stand now!

[TK421]

2 minutes ago, HantsRob said:

 

To be fair, that's some advice I gave Pops myself. If you know the bird is going to be sky high, don't lower your barrels. Understand the pickup, hold and kill points. I didn't do a good job of it as I glossed over it, but on my last lesson with Don Brunt most of the work was looking at the trap, knowing where it'll fly, where a sweet spot is etc. I try to do that every stand now!

Absolutely, this is why a camera on the end of your barrels is nigh on useless for 99% of the issues new shooters have. I feel it adds more complication and confusion as I’m a firm believer in learning from what you see with your own eyes at the time, building your own sight pictures.  It’s easy to hit the odd bird, but to hit them all consistently takes dedication, practice and a reality check.

Let’s also remember shotkam sponsor a lot of coaches and YouTubers. 

[Pops_Hants]

2 minutes ago, TK421 said:

Absolutely, this is why a camera on the end of your barrels is nigh on useless for 99% of the issues new shooters have. I feel it adds more complication and confusion as I’m a firm believer in learning from what you see with your own eyes at the time, building your own sight pictures.  It’s easy to hit the odd bird, but to hit them all consistently takes dedication, practice and a reality check.

Let’s also remember shotkam sponsor a lot of coaches and YouTubers. 

Agree with all of this, and especially your last point.

I'm going to start with all the advice on here first, and likely, will not invest in a shotkam. However, wanted to get the advice from those who have shot with it, and are totally independent before committing to get one if I was going too.

 

[Scully]

I’d think a shotkam could possibly be an aid to improve your shooting IF ( emphasis on IF ) everything is in place and as it should be to begin with. But to learn to shoot with I can’t see how it could help at all. There is just so much else to get right before shot placement, and if you get all those right to begin with then I’m pretty sure shot placement won’t be an issue. 
My nephew has had one for years and says it’s never helped him shoot any better, he simply likes to play back the footage of his days shooting. 
Must admit I’d love one for that reason also. 

[Shotkam]

47 minutes ago, TK421 said:

Most issues when first starting out shooting come from many other things than what a $h1tkam picks up on. Gun mount, feet position, reading the bird, hold point, kill point etc etc…  arguably the extra weight on the barrels negates and benefits in fact I could argue it could slow down your swing through or add extra momentum? Shooting with a shotkam on the end of your barrels will feel very different to shooting without them that’s for sure. 

buy one try it out only way for you to be sure, personally I’d spend my money elsewhere as in this game things can get unnecessarily over complicated very quickly. Keep things simple, keep as many constants in your game as you can and just keep shooting. It will come to you eventually, but it will take practice. 

Some good points to listen to here regarding the mechanics of shooting.

I haven't said a novice shooter should rush out and buy one, as the learning curve to get the most from one is large.

Also don't ever expect to see the shot string unless you have a perfect blue sky background and the target is less than 20 yards maximum !

If you wish to shortcut the learning curve, go with a well experienced ShotKam user that has a proven track record and they can analyse your shots for you. An iPad or laptop is far better to take than a mobile to review on site.

Never work on more than 2 targets in a session most would advise, little and often. 3 days of 50 clays is better than 1 day with 150.

I would be interested to hear what other regular users of a ShotKam have to comment on.

 

Edited November 14, 2022 by Shotkam

[thebigH91]

i use a shotkam occasionally nowadays, when i first got it i found 2 things immediately 1 - i was starting before the target appeared and 2 - i wasnt using swing through as often as i had always thought, im a skeet shooter by the way. I find now that i can use the footage i have to show novice skeeters what lead is needed to hit the clay especially on peg 4, i can say 4 foot but novices can't or won't shoot that far in front until they see it in glorious technicolour. One person put 5 clays on his average after watching my footage. As others have said Shotkams are great fun items but they can definitely be a useful tool too, and theres always your Shotkam moment when you get the perfect clay break (see comment about great fun).

[TK421]

15 minutes ago, thebigH91 said:

i use a shotkam occasionally nowadays, when i first got it i found 2 things immediately 1 - i was starting before the target appeared and 2 - i wasnt using swing through as often as i had always thought, im a skeet shooter by the way. I find now that i can use the footage i have to show novice skeeters what lead is needed to hit the clay especially on peg 4, i can say 4 foot but novices can't or won't shoot that far in front until they see it in glorious technicolour. One person put 5 clays on his average after watching my footage. As others have said Shotkams are great fun items but they can definitely be a useful tool too, and theres always your Shotkam moment when you get the perfect clay break (see comment about great fun).

All good points but everyone sees lead differently. I try not to focus on lead more on gun speed which has more of an influencing factor on sight picture and perceived lead.
Gun speed and hold point. Both can be different and both can result in a hit or miss. Both with a perceived difference in lead.