Transfer of Shotguns from a deceased licence holder

[chapperz1991]

Good evening all. A family friend's husband passed away 15 months ago. He held a shotgun certificate with 2 shotguns and these are still secured in a cabinet. Now, admittedly the wife should have notified the firearms department to obtain a temporary licence for a determined period of time (3-6months the norm?)to allow a decision to be made on how to dispose - naturally this wasn't top of her priority list. Now, I am a licenced shotgun holder and have said I would be interested in seeing the guns with the potential of buying them.

First question. If I buy the guns, how do I go about adding these to my certificate? Can I add these on to my own cert and notify firearms department per normal procedure? Or should I contact my local firearms department before making an offer?

Second question. If I decide I don't want the guns, I would like to help her dispose of the guns. We both live close to an RFD. Would it just be a case of asking them if they are happy to have them to dispose off? Or should she arrange with the firearms team to collect/deliver to an appropriate station. The gentleman's cert had only just been renewed so there won't be any contact from the firearms for atleast 3 years. Should she also return his certificate?

Any advice greatly received.

[Zetter]

I did the same think for my uncles wife. Simply I talked to FEO and said I would take possession on my ticket pending sale. She was happy with this took the details off me and added them to my ticket on the spot allowing me to write the details in on my ticket myself. I then took possession of the guns and arranged the sale of them via various routes giving the proceeds to his widow. If I had decided to keep them then it would have just been a case of paying his widow for them.

The FEO couldn't have been more helpful as they were rapidly in possession of a license holder. As afar as his SGC was concerned I was asked to post it back to TVP firearms with a covering letter explaining he has passed away along with a copy of the death certificate. 

An RFD could normally take them as well but there may be a cost if they are something thats not worth anything (thinking of some of the SxS guns at the moment.

 

[enfieldspares]

On 13/01/2023 at 21:02, chapperz1991 said:

Good evening all. A family friend's husband passed away 15 months ago. He held a shotgun certificate with 2 shotguns and these are still secured in a cabinet. Now, admittedly the wife should have notified the firearms department to obtain a temporary licence for a determined period of time (3-6months the norm?)to allow a decision to be made on how to dispose - naturally this wasn't top of her priority list. Now, I am a licenced shotgun holder and have said I would be interested in seeing the guns with the potential of buying them.

First question. If I buy the guns, how do I go about adding these to my certificate? Can I add these on to my own cert and notify firearms department per normal procedure? Or should I contact my local firearms department before making an offer?

Second question. If I decide I don't want the guns, I would like to help her dispose of the guns. We both live close to an RFD. Would it just be a case of asking them if they are happy to have them to dispose off? Or should she arrange with the firearms team to collect/deliver to an appropriate station. The gentleman's cert had only just been renewed so there won't be any contact from the firearms for atleast 3 years. Should she also return his certificate?

Any advice greatly received.

Yes. You, effectively, can write them on (as clearly the deceased person cannot). Legally unless you were given them in the person's will or by an verbal expression to give them to you when they died the "title" (ownership) remains with the deceased's estate and it should be therefore the executor that fills in Table 2. Of if left to the wife then she should. 

Now the caveat is this.There may be at some later time a dispute.That the guns were worth "tens of thousands" and you've had them for free. My own 2p wotrth is that unless they have a sentimental value to you to call an auction house and have them deal with it all and then buy the ones you might want out of that auction. Open market, willing seller, willing bidder. So no dispute over their worth.

Usually the hammer price of such will be very much below that which the family may think that they are worth and that IMHO is the best way to avoid future repecussions. Lastly once you've taken the guns you cannot actually give them back to the wife unless she has a authority to possess. A quick look might be OK but if you take them away having been entered into you Table 2 you can't.

It's a can of worms. What, it may help such advice, are the guns? If a tatty worn out single barrel Argyle or a boxlock non-ejector then the value is not even £40, if that, in today's market. And the most value may actually be the gun cabinet they are housed in! In fact most RFDs won't want them. Plus you may be taking them then bring on yourself the burden of a need for a larger cabinet. I am sorry this is all pessimistic but know what the guns are would help.

Edited January 15, 2023 by enfieldspares

[Gordon R]

enfieldspares - your comments are not pessimistic, they are the reality of the situation.

[chapperz1991]

10 hours ago, enfieldspares said:

Yes. You, effectively, can write them on (as clearly the deceased person cannot). Legally unless you were given them in the person's will or by an verbal expression to give them to you when they died the "title" (ownership) remains with the deceased's estate and it should be therefore the executor that fills in Table 2. Of if left to the wife then she should. 

Now the caveat is this.There may be at some later time a dispute.That the guns were worth "tens of thousands" and you've had them for free. My own 2p wotrth is that unless they have a sentimental value to you to call an auction house and have them deal with it all and then buy the ones you might want out of that auction. Open market, willing seller, willing bidder. So no dispute over their worth.

Usually the hammer price of such will be very much below that which the family may think that they are worth and that IMHO is the best way to avoid future repecussions. Lastly once you've taken the guns you cannot actually give them back to the wife unless she has a authority to possess. A quick look might be OK but if you take them away having been entered into you Table 2 you can't.

It's a can of worms. What, it may help such advice, are the guns? If a tatty worn out single barrel Argyle or a boxlock non-ejector then the value is not even £40, if that, in today's market. And the most value may actually be the gun cabinet they are housed in! In fact most RFDs won't want them. Plus you may be taking them then bring on yourself the burden of a need for a larger cabinet. I am sorry this is all pessimistic but know what the guns are would help.

Thank you for your reply. I have not actually seen the guns yet but the wife believes one to be a beretta and the other unknown (father or grandfather's gun of the deceased so one assumes a sxs of some sort). The auction route does seem a good idea and I will broach this with her. I like to think of myself as an honest person so if I like the Beretta I will make her a decent offer based on market price (using guntrader etc. For reference). 

[Lloyd90]

My old boss and friend died suddenly at 59, he had a shotgun and a 22lr rifle. 
 

His wife applied for temporary licences as he was obviously unable to sign them over, and as his wife she would naturally inherit his stuff.

The Police gave her a temp FAC and SGC, and once she had those through I bought them both off her and she wrote them onto my licences. 
 

A slight delay as I had to apply for the variation for the 22lr rifle. 
 

I paid her a fair price (prob a bit over) for both guns as the local RFD offered her a pittance knowing she didn’t have much choice. 

[David BASC]

Some useful info here on bereavement and firearms - Guidance and fact sheets - The British Association for Shooting and Conservation (basc.org.uk) 

[mattsccm]

An uncle died a few years ago. Police involved as he was found by ba neighbour and ambulance obviously not needed!  First thing the officer attending did was run his hand over the top of the cabinets. Of course, as with many old, single people things were not as they should have been and there were the keys.  Guns and rifles straight into police custody. I got the guns transfed to me easily enough and Dad had a swap of one rifle but the other was sold. Some RFD storage involved which cost and was a real fuss as no one was local. Despite me asking, the police didn't mention a tempory permit for the rifles. Hmmm.

Now it is nearly Dads turn to go.Might be days or might be months . Mum and him have told me to have the lot. Little value there but no FAC in my hand. Guns can go straight into my cabinet.  Doubt he'll want to bother to write a letter as above and it's a bit much to ask him. It looks then as if I can apply for a tempory permit for the rifles whilst they are disposed of to people we want to have them and give them time for variations or what ever or even me apply for a FAC. 

[HantsRob]

Matt, I would personally ask your dad to write it down that he's happy for guns to transfer ownership to you, and get a neighbour to countersign. That way there's no dispute.

That said if you have no family issues where someone may contest etc, then that hopefully isn't needed

[mattsccm]

Just spoke to him.Somewhat more interested than of late.Gun transfer is  no worries. Just have to find his SGC😁 for a conventional transfer. He also asked about the rifles. Hmm I currently have no FAC, just been too lazy to apply . I guess I should do it now but would a temporary permit be issued if he was still alive and kicking?

[HantsRob]

If you plan on keeping the rifles then surely going for FAC now is easier than getting a temp permit? If you are only going to sell them on, then the full licence seems excessive. I would strongly urge you to speak to your FEO so that you can get some form of written agreement of best course of action for you and your father.

[Dave-G]

17 hours ago, mattsccm said:

Just spoke to him.Somewhat more interested than of late.Gun transfer is  no worries. Just have to find his SGC😁 for a conventional transfer. He also asked about the rifles. Hmm I currently have no FAC, just been too lazy to apply . I guess I should do it now but would a temporary permit be issued if he was still alive and kicking?

Unlike SGC, you may or may not know: FAC requires permission and a good reason to hold firearms and ammo, so maybe try your local shoots for pest control permission. This can take up to a year these days, assuming the FLO is processing new applications at all so do it pronto.

Edited January 19, 2023 by Dave-G

[chapperz1991]

Hi all. Thanks for everyone's input on this matter. A little update. The wife's brother is transferring the guns to his sgc. I'm glad they are staying within the family abd not being split up. 

[Dave-G]

Now that the OP query seems to have been settled:

I'm wondering what happens in the event a deceased's/non compos mentis's cabinet is opened to find all/any of the guns aren't there?

[RyanMc]

8 hours ago, Dave-G said:

Now that the OP query seems to have been settled:

I'm wondering what happens in the event a deceased's/non compos mentis's cabinet is opened to find all/any of the guns aren't there?

Opened by whom? If family will they really know what was there in the 1st place, if FAO/FEO with a list, a different story as they are checking against registered items on their paperwork.

on a lighter note, if its the wife, she'll be surprised, we all only have one rifle and its a plain black .22, not the multitude of firearms and caliber's in the cabinet!!

[Old farrier]

9 hours ago, Dave-G said:

Now that the OP query seems to have been settled:

I'm wondering what happens in the event a deceased's/non compos mentis's cabinet is opened to find all/any of the guns aren't there?

Or more than there should be on the license?