Gun sold, SOR, payment to me only part made

[kevin55]

 All

Advice needed please

Through what I took to be a trusted person I sold a gun SOR in October for £3000

Since then, after repeated phone calls and assurances of payment I've had £1000 (by Revolut) only after a local (to him, -50 miles from me) chased him repeatedly and I got that only in January

I was dealing with a person but in fact it's a limited entity and accounts show it's in trouble so no point taking legal action

Should I contact or tell him I'm contacting his FEO and advise of dishonesty which is a reason for renewal of license renewal? This would presumably be a serious step

I've bought and sold a few guns when this person was based at a ground/shop and never had problems

He's plainly got into trouble on his own

Thanks

Kevin (I've had money problems before with a gamekeeper/car dealer near Newbury)

 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Small claims court?

[kevin55]

4 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Small claims court?

I think it would have to be against the company which apparently has no money, though the £1000 came from him personally

[old'un]

yep, trying to take legal action against the director of a Ltd company is difficult but not impossible.

was it made clear to you that it was the limited company buying the gun?

[Rupert]

Only worth investing the funds in pursuing if you feel he as resources to fulfill any judgement.

Who did you make the sale to? who is on the paperwork? him or the company? this will determine the direction of any action.

Absolutely report to Firearms what harm can it do? unless he is a liar and infers you were threatening in your dealings or other such detrimental misdirection

As always said is no good, what about the arrangement can you prove.

 

[Newbie to this]

I'm struggling to understand how he got your rifle, without paying for it. Why did you transfer the rifle onto his cert and hand it over without receiving payment 

[mossy835]

34 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

I'm struggling to understand how he got your rifle, without paying for it. Why did you transfer the rifle onto his cert and hand it over without receiving payment 

this

[PeterHenry]

2 hours ago, Newbie to this said:

I'm struggling to understand how he got your rifle, without paying for it. Why did you transfer the rifle onto his cert and hand it over without receiving payment 

SOR = Sale or Return - I presume he's sold it through a business.

My advice to the OP is to go through the motions, and get yourself in a position where you are recognised as a creditor to the company incase it goes under.

3 hours ago, old'un said:

yep, trying to take legal action against the director of a Ltd company is difficult but not impossible.

was it made clear to you that it was the limited company buying the gun?

If you are talking about 'piercing the veil' - judges tend to be extremely reluctant to do that, and I would think there wasn't a chance in hell of it happening in the small claims track.

[rbrowning2]

i’m confused, did you sell or transfer the gun to a person via his personal certificate or to him as an RFD? Was it a section 1 or section 2 firearm? Did you notify the police of the transfer?

[Newbie to this]

14 minutes ago, PeterHenry said:

SOR = Sale or Return - I presume he's sold it through a business.

My advice to the OP is to go through the motions, and get yourself in a position where you are recognised as a creditor to the company incase it goes under.

So a commission sale. 

I which case if the gun is still in possession of the RFD and not sold, and the OP has a commission sale receipt, then the gun is still his property, regardless of the business going into administration or not. If the gun has been sold and the business has gone into administration, then unfortunately the OP will just be another creditor.

If the busness hasn't gone into administration, I would be demanding my money in person.

Edited March 11, 2023 by Newbie to this

[old'un]

9 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

So a commission sale. 

I which case if the gun is still in possession of the RFD and not sold, and the OP has a commission sale receipt, then the gun is still his property, regardless of the business going into administration or not. If the gun has been sold and the business has gone into administration, then unfortunately the OP will just be another creditor.

If the busness hasn't gone into administration, I would be demanding my money in person.

the op does say he had received £1000 so it must have been sold?

[kevin55]

4 hours ago, old'un said:

yep, trying to take legal action against the director of a Ltd company is difficult but not impossible.

was it made clear to you that it was the limited company buying the gun?

The gun was with a dealer on SOR, their employee set up on his own and agreed to sell the gun for me, I trusted him and didn't kniow of the limited entity

[old'un]

12 minutes ago, kevin55 said:

The gun was with a dealer on SOR, their employee set up on his own and agreed to sell the gun for me, I trusted him and didn't kniow of the limited entity

So in what capacity did he receive the gun. Private individual or a RFD? And what paper trail do you have.

[PeterHenry]

5 minutes ago, old'un said:

So in what capacity did he receive the gun. Private individual or a RFD? And what paper trail do you have.

I think that is the crux of it 👍

[kevin55]

4 minutes ago, PeterHenry said:

I think that is the crux of it 👍

Received as private individual, emails are to him, RFD details -which I had to chase up - are in the name of a company

So gun taken for sale as a person I trusted, he is then director of a company, company sells the gun

Lots of emails/whatsapp, most recently "waiting for a customer to pay, latest Friday" that was 3 weeks ago

[Newbie to this]

16 minutes ago, kevin55 said:

Received as private individual

Onto their personal FAC or the RFD's? How was it entered onto the FAC, was it as 'sold'? And what receipt did you get?

How was it reported to your firearms department?

Edited March 11, 2023 by Newbie to this

[rbrowning2]

1 hour ago, kevin55 said:

The gun was with a dealer on SOR, their employee set up on his own and agreed to sell the gun for me, I trusted him and didn't kniow of the limited entity

did the employee leave his employment with the RFD who was selling the gun SOR? Did you give permission to the dealer for the dealer to give (transfer) the gun to the ex or still employed employee? who then sold the gun? did the employee enter it on to his personal certificate or his RFD ledger or on to the buyer’s certificate and did you get a receipt?   was it a section 1 or 2 firearm? Is the firearm still listed on your certificate, if so do you actually know where it physically is? or have you notified the police of the sale and if so who it was sold to? within the seven days required.

All sounds very iffy to me you could be potentially in breach of the firearms act. 

You may have more to worry about than just getting your money.

Edited March 11, 2023 by rbrowning2

[Fellside]

This all appears to be a little iffy re the dealer. Involve the police - this would be responsible action re genuine concern. They will at least trace the gun and make sure it’s all correct etc. Also, there may be sniff of fraudulent dealings. While the police aren’t likely to pursue your money, their involvement may trigger your payment (if there’s any money left). I think you’ve been remarkably patient so far. Time for action!

[kevin55]

Thanks for the replies

I gave permission for the gun to go from the original dealer to the person I trusted, setting-up on his own - he said he could sell English Guns to his clients more readily

He sold - only letting me know afrer I'd chased him a few times and I then had to chase him for his RFD details

I let the Met know as soon as I knew it was sold (without the seller's RFD details) then followed-up with the RFD details

K

 

[enfieldspares]

Stable door and bolted horses but when I was an RFD and had the agency for Dade Speedloaders in the 1980s and 1990s and also supplied other items either as on an invoice or SOR on every document pertaining to the transaction was this

"RESERVATION OF GOODS UNTIL PAID FOR: ALL GOODS REMAIN THE PROPERTY OF (INSERT YOUR NAME) UNTIL FULL AND FINAL PAYMENT INCLUDING CLEARANCE OF CHEQUES IS EFFECTED".

Only had course to use it once an RFD in the "trade" in Birmingham who was a subtenant of one of the gun businesses there. So I was able to approach the keyholder and allowed to enter the premises and retake possession of the items. 

5 hours ago, Newbie to this said:

 

I which case if the gun is still in possession of the RFD and not sold, and the OP has a commission sale receipt, then the gun is still his property, regardless of the business going into administration or not. If the gun has been sold and the business has gone into administration, then unfortunately the OP will just be another creditor.

 

This as above. Title (as in ownership) remains with the first party but what may cause issues is if there is a notification of a disposal to the errant RFD that uses the word "sold" rather than "placed with YYY for offer for sale". Especially where this has been done with a s1 firearms and a "one for one" then applied for and granted to the first party.

Edited March 11, 2023 by enfieldspares

[Bobba]

10 hours ago, enfieldspares said:

"RESERVATION OF GOODS UNTIL PAID FOR: ALL GOODS REMAIN THE PROPERTY OF (INSERT YOUR NAME) UNTIL FULL AND FINAL PAYMENT INCLUDING CLEARANCE OF CHEQUES IS EFFECTED".

Where I once worked we had similar wording on our invoices. We once sold a piece of kit to a new would be agent who then sold it on in the course of business. We were not paid. I discussed with lawyers, available through the Federation of Small businesses, the opportunity of recovering our kit from the end user. The then advice was that the end user would be regarded as a Bona Fide Purchaser or purchaser in innocence and the kit would remain theirs despite competing claims of ownership. So, recovery action would have to be against the first purchaser / person. In our case, as seems to be the case here, that person was a “Man of straw” and not worth suing. We couldn’t action the tort of conversion (selling assets not his own and retaining the proceeds) as I recall that is a civil not a criminal act. Whether any criminal act has occurred is a matter for the OP to discuss with the police. Even if it has then police action, if any, seems unlikely to bring in any cash if the seller remains a man of straw. Messy business. Fingers crossed for the OP.