How long

[udderlyoffroad]

You lot can make all the Hitler analogies you like, this war is none of our business and we are being led by mad men by involving ourselves.

Sooner or later, public opinion will quietly shift.  It did with the third Iraq war, it did with lockdowns, and it will with this. 

When Zelensky is finally exposed as the war mongering shi....shill that he is, all of the usual candidates will be regaling us with unconvincing choruses of 'I knew it all along'.  Yea, right.  Trouble is, the internet never forgets.

Don't get me wrong, this modern affectation of 'wanting to be on the right side of history' is nonsense.  Unless you're the PM or a senior cabinet member, nobody will remember or care what 'side of history' you were on. But if you seriously think publicly expressing your support for the 'current thing' will be a wise move long term....er where have you been this century?

3 hours ago, welsh1 said:

It really is as simple as that, if russia had not invaded then this war would not be ongoing would it. you may want to play with other things about the dombass and free state, but it is a very simple fact russia is invading another country, that country is defending itself.After all russia could have chosen to have talks on land they believed they were entitled to like civilised people do, but no they chose to go to war.

By that logic, we should be arming half of Africa and large chunks of Asia too.  Arguably, of course, we are, but at least those dictators pay in cash.

 

1 hour ago, 12gauge82 said:

not to mention the nato alliance where an attack on one, is an attack on all.

Increasingly not worth the paper it's written on.  Germany et al even less capable than they should be, and POTUS hates the British.  We'd be hung out to dry the minute this conflict got remotely warm.

[treetree]

2 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

If russia were stupid enough to attempt direct conflict with the UK in any way short of nuclear, we'd have them for breakfast

You sure about that? I'd read that if the UK became involved in a conflict with the intensity of the last few months in Ukraine that it would have run out of munitions in a week.

[12gauge82]

1 hour ago, udderlyoffroad said:

You lot can make all the Hitler analogies you like, this war is none of our business and we are being led by mad men by involving ourselves.

Sooner or later, public opinion will quietly shift.  It did with the third Iraq war, it did with lockdowns, and it will with this. 

When Zelensky is finally exposed as the war mongering shi....shill that he is, all of the usual candidates will be regaling us with unconvincing choruses of 'I knew it all along'.  Yea, right.  Trouble is, the internet never forgets.

Don't get me wrong, this modern affectation of 'wanting to be on the right side of history' is nonsense.  Unless you're the PM or a senior cabinet member, nobody will remember or care what 'side of history' you were on. But if you seriously think publicly expressing your support for the 'current thing' will be a wise move long term....er where have you been this century?

By that logic, we should be arming half of Africa and large chunks of Asia too.  Arguably, of course, we are, but at least those dictators pay in cash.

 

Increasingly not worth the paper it's written on.  Germany et al even less capable than they should be, and POTUS hates the British.  We'd be hung out to dry the minute this conflict got remotely warm.

While I absolutely agree, as with anything complex in life, there is seldom right and wrong or black and white, but with regards who is ultimately to blame for the war, it's crystal clear, Russia under Putin is the only country that has invaded a country that clearly had no intention of invading Russia. 

It is unjustifiable and putin excuse of a special military operation with the aim of denazification of ukrain, utterly ludicrous.

[enfieldspares]

On 15/05/2023 at 13:00, Dave-G said:

Problem  - maybe his successor might be even more hardline

This. 

[ditchman]

On 15/05/2023 at 13:00, Dave-G said:

Problem  - maybe his successor might be even more hardline

so how can a man/woman be even more hardline than putin....with nothing in the coffers.........the internal mafia are fed up with putin and they want their lives back....they are choosing someone who will be acceptable to the west and allow them to play with their toys again......and when they have chosen the sucessor there will be a night of the long knives.............

[McSpredder]

5 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said:

You lot can make all the Hitler analogies you like, this war is none of our business and we are being led by mad men by involving ourselves.

Hitler analogies?   

'this war is none of our business'  sounds very much like  'a quarrel in a far-away country between people of whom we know nothing'

Here is the next part of Neville Chamberlain's oft-quoted speech, with a few names names changed:

"I can well understand the reasons why the Czech Ukrainian Government have felt unable to accept the terms which have been put before them in the German Rusian memorandum. Yet I believe after my talks with Herr Hitler Mr Putin that, if only time were allowed, it ought to be possible for the arrangements for transferring the territory that the Czech Ukrainian Government has agreed to give to Germany Russia to be settled by agreement under conditions which would assure fair treatment to the population concerned.

You know already that I have done all that one man can do to compose this quarrel. After my visits to Germany Russia I have realised vividly how Herr Hitler Mr Putin feels that he must champion other Germans Russians, and his indignation that grievances have not been met before this. He told me privately, and last night he repeated publicly, that after this Sudeten German Crimean and Donbas question is settled, that is the end of Germany’s Russia's territorial claims in Europe.”

[discobob]

11 hours ago, ditchman said:

so how can a man/woman be even more hardline than putin....with nothing in the coffers.........the internal mafia are fed up with putin and they want their lives back....they are choosing someone who will be acceptable to the west and allow them to play with their toys again......and when they have chosen the sucessor there will be a night of the long knives.............

Perhaps it may be someone from the WEF Global Leaders programme....

Quite a few "notable" Politicians have been through this programme including some of our own....

[Dave-G]

15 hours ago, ditchman said:

so how can a man/woman be even more hardline than putin....with nothing in the coffers.........the internal mafia are fed up with putin and they want their lives back....they are choosing someone who will be acceptable to the west and allow them to play with their toys again......and when they have chosen the sucessor there will be a night of the long knives.............

I'd like to think you are correct and a replacement would be more rational and agreeable - but we, nor the Russian general population aren't likely to get to choose what replacement they select. 

[udderlyoffroad]

1 hour ago, Dave-G said:

I'd like to think you are correct and a replacement would be more rational and agreeable

The way Yeltsin succeeded Gorbachev is likely the model here.  Not Hitler and Eva in the bunker.

15 hours ago, McSpredder said:

Hitler analogies?   

'this war is none of our business'  sounds very much like  'a quarrel in a far-away country between people of whom we know nothing'

Here is the next part of Neville Chamberlain's oft-quoted speech, with a few names names changed:

Oh please.  On that basis, you're handing white feathers to young men out of uniform, and taking your kids to the recruitment centre?  Sent your pots and pans to be turned into fight....chinese drones yet?

History doesn't so much repeat itself, but it does play the same chords.*  But you really are pushing things to absurd levels to claim a repeat of the WW2 scenario.

The geostrategic interest in Ukraine (and its subsequent election manipulation) is a US thing, not a UK one. 

Biden promised that pipeline 'wounldn't be allowed to happen' - his words.  Why on earth we are sending billions to Ukraine to prolong a war it isn't in our interest to prolong, is insanity.  Sunak and Boris will rightly be remembered as enablers of a veritable cluster****, and as mentioned, suddenly the biggest proponents of this will go very quiet.

*  Hence the origin of the phrase 'status quo'.

[Rewulf]

Im not going to go over old ground , or into the bunfight the last thread ended up in, but lets be clear on some things.

The wests 'involvement isnt about 'defending' Ukraine.
If it was , steps would have been taken after 2014 to bring them into the fold, and position a multinational peacekeeping force to separate the fighters in Donbas.
NO attempt was ever made to do this.
Besides the sham of the Minsk agreements , which achieved nothing, NO attempt has been made before or during the conflict to negotiate peacefully.

Instead we sent weapons, provided training and intelligence for a future conflict.

Hitler analogies aside, which are just propaganda to a populace bought up on WW2 films, Putin, a despot, has rubbed shoulders and broke bread with many despots western leaders, and projects like Nordstream and other trade were welcomed.
It is absolutely clear then, and now , that Russia could not take on NATO, so these ridiculous misquotes of expansionism and 'empire' are just more propaganda.
If we are to believe it now , why didnt we believe it then, when we were buying Russian oil and gas , enriching the Russian state ?

Call it the deep state, call it whatever you like, but to my eye , they wanted this conflict to happen, because they did absolutely NOTHING to prevent it, instead , they did absolutely everything possible , without putting boots on the ground, to instigate it.

Why ? Because all that trade in oil and gas, wasnt to 'their' liking.
Its no secret that the US hated Nordstream, now its gone , and the blame levelled at Ukraine (who had no strategic reason to destroy a non functioning pipeline)
 and the EU bullied into not (directly)  buying Russian goods , including the gas they based their economies on.

Ill say again , Ukraine is a tragedy, I genuinely feel for the people, but they are lead by a stooge, who cares little for their suffering , if he did , he would make attempts to stop this , and at least TRY to negotiate.
Instead , we have a never ending war of attrition, that pushes us all to the brink.

[Dave-G]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

Im not going to go over old ground , or into the bunfight the last thread ended up in, but lets be clear on some things.

The wests 'involvement isnt about 'defending' Ukraine.
If it was , steps would have been taken after 2014 to bring them into the fold, and position a multinational peacekeeping force to separate the fighters in Donbas.
NO attempt was ever made to do this.
Besides the sham of the Minsk agreements , which achieved nothing, NO attempt has been made before or during the conflict to negotiate peacefully.

Instead we sent weapons, provided training and intelligence for a future conflict.

Hitler analogies aside, which are just propaganda to a populace bought up on WW2 films, Putin, a despot, has rubbed shoulders and broke bread with many despots western leaders, and projects like Nordstream and other trade were welcomed.
It is absolutely clear then, and now , that Russia could not take on NATO, so these ridiculous misquotes of expansionism and 'empire' are just more propaganda.
If we are to believe it now , why didnt we believe it then, when we were buying Russian oil and gas , enriching the Russian state ?

Call it the deep state, call it whatever you like, but to my eye , they wanted this conflict to happen, because they did absolutely NOTHING to prevent it, instead , they did absolutely everything possible , without putting boots on the ground, to instigate it.

Why ? Because all that trade in oil and gas, wasnt to 'their' liking.
Its no secret that the US hated Nordstream, now its gone , and the blame levelled at Ukraine (who had no strategic reason to destroy a non functioning pipeline)
 and the EU bullied into not (directly)  buying Russian goods , including the gas they based their economies on.

Ill say again , Ukraine is a tragedy, I genuinely feel for the people, but they are lead by a stooge, who cares little for their suffering , if he did , he would make attempts to stop this , and at least TRY to negotiate.
Instead , we have a never ending war of attrition, that pushes us all to the brink.

That holds water. 

[McSpredder]

10 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said:

Oh please.  On that basis, you're handing white feathers to young men out of uniform, and taking your kids to the recruitment centre? 

The white feathers were handed out during WW1, so why attempt to associate them with Hitler?    Muddled thinking on your part?

10 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Hitler analogies aside, which are just propaganda to a populace bought up on WW2 films,

You might have been brought up on WW2 films.   Some of us grew up among individuals (parents, relatives, neighbours) who had returned from war with horrific injuries, families grieving for those killed on active service or as a result of bombing raids on civilians, relatives so traumatised by prison camp torture that they would still be waking with nightmares half a century later, people who had been rendered stateless and were living in UK's Displaced Persons camps.   Our information came as first hand accounts, not film scripts.   

[Rewulf]

6 hours ago, McSpredder said:

The white feathers were handed out during WW1, so why attempt to associate them with Hitler?    Muddled thinking on your part?

You're completely missing his point, it's the concept of those who don't embrace war , being seen as cowards.

6 hours ago, McSpredder said:

You might have been brought up on WW2 films.   Some of us grew up among individuals (parents, relatives, neighbours) who had returned from war with horrific injuries, families grieving for those killed on active service or as a result of bombing raids on civilians, relatives so traumatised by prison camp torture that they would still be waking with nightmares half a century later, people who had been rendered stateless and were living in UK's Displaced Persons camps.   Our information came as first hand accounts, not film scripts. 

You're making assumptions. 

Both my parents were born in 1931, they lived through the war , my mother in London, her house was destroyed and they lost everything.

My dad lived in Buxton , and remembered the Germans flying over to hit Manchester, they would often set fire to hay bales in surrounding fields to make them think it was a burning city, so they would bomb that instead. His uncles fought , and one was indeed interred by the Japs, he survived , but never spoke about it, and would not have anything Japanese in his house, he fell out with my dad when he bought a Datsun in the 70s.

[McSpredder]

2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

You're completely missing his point, it's the concept of those who don't embrace war , being seen as cowards.

It was not I who introduced white feathers into the discussion, and it would be entirely false to suggest otherwise.   The only person who has mentioned cowards is yourself.

2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

You're making assumptions.

It was not I who inserted “propaganda to a populace bought up on WW2 films” into the discussion.   It was yourself.

[udderlyoffroad]

9 hours ago, McSpredder said:

The white feathers were handed out during WW1, so why attempt to associate them with Hitler? 

They were also, as the kids say, 'a thing' during WW2.

 

9 hours ago, McSpredder said:

Our information came as first hand accounts, not film scripts. 

Ahhh, so you're in the generation of boomers that never directly experienced war*, and way too old to be drafted now.  No wonder you're so enthusiastic for it.  Maybe when your grandkids are all signed up you might be less enthusiastic.

* with some exceptions, Suez, Korea, etc

 

20 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Ill say again , Ukraine is a tragedy, I genuinely feel for the people, but they are lead by a stooge, who cares little for their suffering , if he did , he would make attempts to stop this , and at least TRY to negotiate.
Instead , we have a never ending war of attrition, that pushes us all to the brink.

Nailed it!

I think/hope people are slowly coming to realise this. Shame people are dying whilst supporters of 'the current thing' to take their sweet time to question the narrative.

[McSpredder]

7 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

Ahhh, so you're in the generation of boomers that never directly experienced war*, and way too old to be drafted now.  No wonder you're so enthusiastic for it. 

I have never expressed any enthusiasm for war, and it would be totally dishonest to suggest that I had.   Have you perhaps mistaken me for somebody else?

[welsh1]

Another Ukraine type thread descending into the same old arguments, i am going to end it here as this is just going the way of all the other Ukraine threads.

[udderlyoffroad]

7 minutes ago, McSpredder said:

I have never expressed any enthusiasm for war, and it would be totally dishonest to suggest that I had.   Have you perhaps mistaken me for somebody else?

So what precisely is the point you're trying to make?

You're taking Chamberlain's appeasement speech, changing names, to argue for...what exactly?

On 16/05/2023 at 22:15, McSpredder said:

Hitler analogies?   

'this war is none of our business'  sounds very much like  'a quarrel in a far-away country between people of whom we know nothing'

Here is the next part of Neville Chamberlain's oft-quoted speech, with a few names names changed:

"I can well understand the reasons why the Czech Ukrainian Government have felt unable to accept the terms which have been put before them in the German Rusian memorandum. Yet I believe after my talks with Herr Hitler Mr Putin that, if only time were allowed, it ought to be possible for the arrangements for transferring the territory that the Czech Ukrainian Government has agreed to give to Germany Russia to be settled by agreement under conditions which would assure fair treatment to the population concerned.

You know already that I have done all that one man can do to compose this quarrel. After my visits to Germany Russia I have realised vividly how Herr Hitler Mr Putin feels that he must champion other Germans Russians, and his indignation that grievances have not been met before this. He told me privately, and last night he repeated publicly, that after this Sudeten German Crimean and Donbas question is settled, that is the end of Germany’s Russia's territorial claims in Europe.”