BASC response to HSE lead ammunition consultation

[Scully]

1 hour ago, Konor said:

Acceptable ?
Not necessarily ,not if you consider that the practice in itself increases the likelihood of wounding if so you should be free to criticise it. If you feel that you do your utmost to minimise wounding and think the practice of punt gunning results in too many wounded birds why shouldn’t you feel free to criticise

Having been brought up on the Solwayside and known a puntgunner personally I think they earn their birds and do the utmost to gather any wounded birds after the main shot from the punt gun has “blasted” them. There’s not much undergrowth out on the bay for them to scuttle off to so I think their cripple stopper probably minimises escapees so I don’t have any issues with puntgunning

I just question your stance that if a person shoots then they are obliged to support any form of shooting and any practice in the field for fear of being accused of hypocrisy.

If I took someone out on a flight and they allowed fowl to alight before firing they’d be uninvited after the first occurrence and on their way home .I’m sure, or maybe not as sure as I was, that the vast majority of shooters in that situation would do the same under those circumstances.
If a paying guest shot at a pheasant running through cover rather than flying would they be asked to head home ? Anyone doing so on the syndicates I’ve shot with would be asked to call it a day and their continued syndicate membership in jeopardy.

I think claiming hypocrisy by the other guns attending would be considered a poor defence in such circumstances.

At the end of the day whichever scenario has occurred there are still dead birds in the bag but are you really saying that just because we kill birds that we should find acceptable any practice that brings that about for fear of being accused of hypocrisy.

Despite the additional comments added on to your initial statement

“Remember ,you’re killing for entertainment and no other reason whatsoever. “

I can’t find myself in agreement with that sentence and don’t think  the sentiment really reflects the feelings of a large section of the shooting community. I’ve enjoyed the circumstances surrounding the act of killing game ,the backdrop to the event and the shot itself but I don’t feel it’s accurately portrayed by stating that I’m spending time in the field shooting because I’m entertained by the act of killing.

Maybe I’m out of step ,hypocritical or both but I’m sure by portraying what I do in such terms reinforces the image that antifieldsports supporters hold of us and doesn’t reflect the broad church of shooting that includes shooting for the table as the main driver for why a lot of people shoot and yes I know there’s no necessity to do that financially I just find it fulfilling to do so.
 

Despite the use of shotguns to minimise mortally wounded escapees, and despite the lack of undergrowth ( I live within an hour of the Solway, and while I’m not a wild fowler I’m pretty familiar with such terrain ) not all head out to sea, some head inland and some will take to the air to fly off wherever, any of which could be wounded. 
However, like I said, it has to be acceptable doesn’t it,  in that I do similar?
I shoot live quarry knowing I may wound it, and never retrieve it. I’ll do what I can to retrieve shot game, but if I don’t find it what does that say about me? Does it prevent me doing it again? 
I agree with your sentiments regarding the entire day; the reason for being out there and doing what we do, but we also have to remember why we do it, and that’s because we enjoy shooting, whether it be one or two for the table or a bag of fifty pheasants, pigeons or rabbits, and that enjoyment involves killing a live bird or animal. There’s simply no way of avoiding that fact; people dress it up any way they can in attempt to justify it, but there’s no getting away from the fact we kill things because we enjoy shooting. 
Judging by the posts on various threads on this forum, those who shoot for the table are in the minority, but even so, they’re doing it for the same reason as all those who don’t shoot for the table; for the love of the ‘sport’. Enjoyment. 
We’re going round and round in circles here, but that’s inevitable due to the topic; if you don’t enjoy live quarry shooting, just stop doing it. It really is that simple. 
Look at it from the point of view from someone who asks. ‘Why do you enjoy killing things?’ 
 

[8 shot]

I

 

9 hours ago, Scully said:

It’s debatable as to whether pest control is essential anyhow, but that aside, unless it’s your land and your crops, then it has to be ‘pleasure’. 

That is a very naive and uneducated statement.... I hope just to cause a debates so i'll try and ignore it

[Scully]

5 minutes ago, 8 shot said:

I

 

That is a very naive and uneducated statement.... I hope just to cause a debates so i'll try and ignore it

Why is it naive and uneducated?

I know many landowners who don’t want pest controllers shooting over their crops as they don’t deem it necessary. 
But unless the land and crops are yours anyhow, why are YOU doing the shooting? 
Unless they’re yours, why have you paid for a ticket, bought a shotgun, and the cartridges to go in it? 🤔

[8 shot]

4 minutes ago, Scully said:

Why is it naive and uneducated?

Stop it now it's not funny 🤣

 

5 minutes ago, Scully said:

I know many landowners who don’t want pest controllers shooting over their crops as they don’t deem it necessary. 

They either have very deep pockets or no pests.

 

6 minutes ago, Scully said:

But unless the land and crops are yours anyhow, why are YOU doing the shooting? 

At least 75% of the land I control pests over is family owned or rented by us. During Covid we lost between £5000 and £10000 due to less pest control, PM me your address and I'll send you the bill. So I'm assuming all your shooting activities of the the last X amount of years has been on your own property.

[Konor]

43 minutes ago, Scully said:

; if you don’t enjoy live quarry shooting, just stop doing it. It really is that simple. 
Look at it from the point of view from someone who asks. ‘Why do you enjoy killing things?’ 

I do and always have enjoyed live quarry shooting and have no intention of stopping  doing it. I will probably revert back to wildfowling and deer stalking as I head into retirement in order to participate in what brings me most pleasure.

As  to anyone who asks why do I enjoy killing things I’d reply with the points I’ve already made in this thread and try to convince them that the enjoyment isn’t gained from the actual taking of the animals life but the act of putting food on the table and the experience that accompanies it.I don’t know how successful I would be with your average antifieldsports supporter ,probably not at all ,or layman but I’d hope to think I’d be able to convince the majority of shooters the sincerity of my argument whether they consider me hypocritical or not would be up to them.

[Konor]

1 hour ago, Krico woodcock said:

would I be right or wrong in taking such a unsporting shot?? I don't think so. 

I’d have no problem with anyone taking such a shot under those circumstances. 

[Gordon R]

Quote

At least 75% of the land I control pests over is family owned or rented by us. During Covid we lost between £5000 and £10000 due to less pest control, PM me your address and I'll send you the bill. So I'm assuming all your shooting activities of the the last X amount of years has been on your own property.

A bizarre post. Have you actually read any of Scully's posts?

[Weihrauch17]

9 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

A bizarre post. Have you actually read any of Scully's posts?

You obviously haven't, scroll a few posts up!

Edited December 27, 2023 by Weihrauch17

[Gordon R]

Quote

You obviously haven't, scroll a few posts up!

Before you dive in and make a bigger fool of yourself, perhaps you should read what Scully has posted and then re-read 8 shot's post. 

If you can't grasp the point, you have my sympathy.

[islandgun]

Personally I consider it unethical for me to not shoot the occasional duck, goose, or rabbit, all freely available locally. Most of my living is derived from cooking seafood and homegrown or locally sourced meat and game. I consider it my duty to shoot available sustainable food when I can. I also derive great pleasure watching and listening to nature when the sun goes down, a bonus is to carry home part of our next dinner

 

Edited December 27, 2023 by islandgun

[Weihrauch17]

20 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

Before you dive in and make a bigger fool of yourself, perhaps you should read what Scully has posted and then re-read 8 shot's post. 

If you can't grasp the point, you have my sympathy.

Scully quote :

'But unless the land and crops are yours anyhow, why are YOU doing the shooting? 
Unless they’re yours, why have you paid for a ticket, bought a shotgun, and the cartridges to go in it? 🤔' and that in itself is very provocative.

8 shot quoted that his family owns or rents the land he shoots on, the only point I get is that you are obnoxious.

 

 

[Gordon R]

You do have my sympathy. As for obnoxious, I think you have cornered the market.

Feel free to have another pop - you do seem to seek out particular posts. I will ignore any future posts made by you, but it might make you feel better.

[Weihrauch17]

Just now, Gordon R said:

You do have my sympathy. As for obnoxious, I think you have cornered the market.

Feel free to have another pop - you do seem to seek out particular posts. I will ignore any future posts made by you, but it might make you feel better.

Good you come across very badly as a snob.

[Rim Fire]

8 hours ago, islandgun said:

Personally I consider it unethical for me to not shoot the occasional duck, goose, or rabbit, all freely available locally. Most of my living is derived from cooking seafood and homegrown or locally sourced meat and game. I consider it my duty to shoot available sustainable food when I can. I also derive great pleasure watching and listening to nature when the sun goes down, a bonus is to carry home part of our next dinner

 

This is me i shoot for the table as for pest control i do that for land owners so i can shoot for the table it's a case of you scratch my back and i will scratch yours

  

[Scully]

11 hours ago, 8 shot said:

Stop it now it's not funny 🤣

 

They either have very deep pockets or no pests.

 

At least 75% of the land I control pests over is family owned or rented by us. During Covid we lost between £5000 and £10000 due to less pest control, PM me your address and I'll send you the bill. So I'm assuming all your shooting activities of the the last X amount of years has been on your own property.

I’m not sure you’re getting this.
You may laugh all you like, but you still haven’t explained why it’s naive or uneducated. it’s a fact, there are many landowners who for various reasons don’t want people shooting on their land. There are several other options available such as bangers or gas guns, and others simply don’t deem it essential. You may find that difficult to believe, but it’s a fact. 
As for sending me a bill, how does that work then……sending a bill for something which doesn’t exist? No wonder you farmers drive around in Range Rovers! 😀

The question I asked was, ‘if the land or crops aren’t yours, why are YOU shooting pests on it?’ In your case the simple answer is ‘ the land and crops are mine, that’s why.’ 
I shoot pests over crops on land which isn’t mine because I really really enjoy it, which was the entire point of the debate.  Now do you understand? 
 

9 hours ago, islandgun said:

Personally I consider it unethical for me to not shoot the occasional duck, goose, or rabbit, all freely available locally. Most of my living is derived from cooking seafood and homegrown or locally sourced meat and game. I consider it my duty to shoot available sustainable food when I can. I also derive great pleasure watching and listening to nature when the sun goes down, a bonus is to carry home part of our next dinner

 

A good honest answer. 👍

 

11 hours ago, Konor said:

I do and always have enjoyed live quarry shooting and have no intention of stopping  doing it. I will probably revert back to wildfowling and deer stalking as I head into retirement in order to participate in what brings me most pleasure.

As  to anyone who asks why do I enjoy killing things I’d reply with the points I’ve already made in this thread and try to convince them that the enjoyment isn’t gained from the actual taking of the animals life but the act of putting food on the table and the experience that accompanies it.I don’t know how successful I would be with your average antifieldsports supporter ,probably not at all ,or layman but I’d hope to think I’d be able to convince the majority of shooters the sincerity of my argument whether they consider me hypocritical or not would be up to them.

Good for you. 👍

[wymberley]

14 hours ago, Scully said:

Despite the use of shotguns to minimise fatally  wounded escapees, and despite the lack of undergrowth ( I live within an hour of the Solway, and while I’m not a wild fowler I’m pretty familiar with such terrain ) not all head out to sea, some head inland and some will take to the air to fly off wherever, any of which could be wounded. 
However, like I said, it has to be acceptable doesn’t it,  in that I do similar?
I shoot live quarry knowing I may wound it, and never retrieve it. I’ll do what I can to retrieve shot game, but if I don’t find it what does that say about me? Does it prevent me doing it again? 
I agree with your sentiments regarding the entire day; the reason for being out there and doing what we do, but we also have to remember why we do it, and that’s because we enjoy shooting, whether it be one or two for the table or a bag of fifty pheasants, pigeons or rabbits, and that enjoyment involves killing a live bird or animal. There’s simply no way of avoiding that fact; people dress it up any way they can in attempt to justify it, but there’s no getting away from the fact we kill things because we enjoy shooting. 
Judging by the posts on various threads on this forum, those who shoot for the table are in the minority, but even so, they’re doing it for the same reason as all those who don’t shoot for the table; for the love of the ‘sport’. Enjoyment. 
We’re going round and round in circles here, but that’s inevitable due to the topic; if you don’t enjoy live quarry shooting, just stop doing it. It really is that simple. 
Look at it from the point of view from someone who asks. ‘Why do you enjoy killing things?’ 
 

Fixed it for you. 

[clangerman]

those using birds as clays with feathers on might think it smart to make claims we all find it fun but those of us who find it nothing but part of a necessary process far out number you! 

[Scully]

5 minutes ago, clangerman said:

those using birds as clays with feathers on might think it smart to make claims we all find it fun but those of us who find it nothing but part of a necessary process far out number you! 

Got a link to prove that those taking part in that ‘process’ outnumber the rest of us?
If it were true our shooting organisations would be investing their subs’ in you, but they aren’t.
We’ve already established from previous posts that neither the land you shoot on nor the crops you claim to be protecting ( until you’ve shot your quota, remember? ) isn’t yours.
Bearing this in mind, why have you bought a gun with which to shoot pigeons, and why do you do so? 

[welsh1]

And like all good things this has come to an end.