Nublue 22 Posted January 24 Author Report Share Posted January 24 4 hours ago, Bigbob said: Theres nothing like a death and leaving a bit of money to show some family's true colours Oh no, she's all ways been a liair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lloyd90 Posted January 24 Report Share Posted January 24 31 minutes ago, Nublue 22 said: Oh no, she's all ways been a liair. Makes you wonder why your mother appointed her the executor in that case instead of a solicitor etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
serrac Posted January 24 Report Share Posted January 24 1 hour ago, Penelope said: I like the way your mind works 👍 Actually there's more... "She has since given me an amount of money that I know is not any were near the true value of the estate" It appears she may have committed an offence by distributing funds to a beneficiary before submitting accounts to HMRC (which comes at the very end of the executry process). If I was the OP I would inform her that unless I am satisfied that she is acting with complete transparency from this point forward I will report the matter to HMRC, which would likely lead to an audit of the estate and possible criminal prosecution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nublue 22 Posted January 24 Author Report Share Posted January 24 1 hour ago, Lloyd90 said: Makes you wonder why your mother appointed her the executor in that case instead of a solicitor etc. She appointed her sister and her daughter I was abroad, unfortunately her sister passed away just after her death. We will never know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted January 25 Report Share Posted January 25 It's a much more common situation than we might imagine. Don't delay time is against you in these cases. I know of two questionable outcomes in my family, going back years in one instance, that were never resolved. It appears that if you don't do something nobody else does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mungler Posted January 25 Report Share Posted January 25 1. Do a search at the probate registry to see if the deceased's Will has been submitted for probate and or if probate has been granted. If there is a property sale involved then a grant of probate will be necessary to provide the executor with the power of sale. 2. Do a search at the land registry for the deceased's property address to see who / how that is showing as currently registered. If it's still in the deceased's name then what is likely to be the principle asset remains "in play". If there has been a recent disposition / sale, the date will show on the office copy entries. Do a historic search to see how the property was held prior and get a copy of any transfer deed. From this you will be able to find out about the property as at the date of death and if it's been sold / moved on in the last 12 months you will see when it was sold, how much for, to whom, who the solicitors involved in the transfer were and who signed the transfer deed. Realistically don't listen to anyone on here, go and see a solicitor to get proper advice and preserve whatever position you are in now - that may mean action against the executor. 1 year has passed and there has been an obvious attempt to mug you off and deprive you of what lawfully should be coming your way. That would probably justify an application to Court to get the executor removed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
serrac Posted January 25 Report Share Posted January 25 56 minutes ago, Mungler said: That would probably justify an application to Court to get the executor removed. This can end up being a VERY expensive route to take, though potentially you could recover your costs if you win the case and the executor doesn't declare themselves bankrupt. Probably much less expensive would be to raise an action for "account reckoning and payment". (That's the term for it in Scotland, in England it would be something like a "suit for an account." or "Application for Inventory and Account"). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ph5172 Posted January 27 Report Share Posted January 27 On 25/01/2024 at 16:54, Mungler said: 1. Do a search at the probate registry to see if the deceased's Will has been submitted for probate and or if probate has been granted. If there is a property sale involved then a grant of probate will be necessary to provide the executor with the power of sale. 2. Do a search at the land registry for the deceased's property address to see who / how that is showing as currently registered. If it's still in the deceased's name then what is likely to be the principle asset remains "in play". If there has been a recent disposition / sale, the date will show on the office copy entries. Do a historic search to see how the property was held prior and get a copy of any transfer deed. From this you will be able to find out about the property as at the date of death and if it's been sold / moved on in the last 12 months you will see when it was sold, how much for, to whom, who the solicitors involved in the transfer were and who signed the transfer deed. Realistically don't listen to anyone on here, go and see a solicitor to get proper advice and preserve whatever position you are in now - that may mean action against the executor. 1 year has passed and there has been an obvious attempt to mug you off and deprive you of what lawfully should be coming your way. That would probably justify an application to Court to get the executor removed. As usual, Listen to this advice and this alone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted January 27 Report Share Posted January 27 HMRC will not prosecute in a month of Sundays. Mungler's is the opinion to take note of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harrycatcat1 Posted January 27 Report Share Posted January 27 On 25/01/2024 at 16:54, Mungler said: Realistically don't listen to anyone on here, go and see a solicitor to get proper advice and preserve whatever position you are in now - that may mean action against the executor. This Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted January 28 Report Share Posted January 28 On 27/01/2024 at 09:12, Gordon R said: HMRC will not prosecute in a month of Sundays. Mungler's is the opinion to take note of. HMRC will only prosecute if they are owed money. They don't care a fig if you are owed money Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted January 28 Report Share Posted January 28 HMRC rarely prosecute for anything. They have the rather stupid view that they can recover any losses by personal taxation - even when the person doesn't exist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garjo Posted January 29 Report Share Posted January 29 (edited) On 25/01/2024 at 18:04, serrac said: This can end up being a VERY expensive route to take, though potentially you could recover your costs if you win the case and the executor doesn't declare themselves bankrupt. Probably much less expensive would be to raise an action for "account reckoning and payment". (That's the term for it in Scotland, in England it would be something like a "suit for an account." or "Application for Inventory and Account" Edited January 29 by garjo Taken on board Munglers point Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penelope Posted January 29 Report Share Posted January 29 On 27/01/2024 at 07:36, ph5172 said: As usual, Listen to this advice and this alone 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mungler Posted January 29 Report Share Posted January 29 (edited) 13 hours ago, garjo said: Good advice Serrac, so basically what you’re saying is to claim in the small cc for the interest lost on the estate rather than the estimated value of share of the estate? This would minimise costs. If there is a property involved is it worth registering a caution against the property? You’re all so far wide of the mark it hurts 😆 The OP needs to see a solicitor with litigation experience in this arena. ‘Cautions’ haven’t been around for over a decade and issuing part of claim (for interest only) gives rise to a whole host of problems ranging from abuse of process to estoppel. Google Henderson v Henderson. Edited January 29 by Mungler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garjo Posted January 29 Report Share Posted January 29 46 minutes ago, Mungler said: You’re all so far wide of the mark it hurts 😆 The OP needs to see a solicitor with litigation experience in this arena. ‘Cautions’ haven’t been around for over a decade and issuing part of claim (for interest only) gives rise to a whole host of problems ranging from abuse of process to estoppel. Google Henderson v Henderson. Point taken Mungler, I’ve removed post, thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scobydog Posted January 29 Report Share Posted January 29 Just do as Mungler says and quickly as possible. S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
serrac Posted January 31 Report Share Posted January 31 On 27/01/2024 at 09:12, Gordon R said: HMRC will not prosecute in a month of Sundays. Very true since that's not their remit 🙂 "HMRC only investigates criminal allegations of fraud, tax evasion, money laundering and other financial crimes. The decision whether to prosecute lies with the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS)" They do however Investigate, and my point was the threat of being tagged for investigation by HMRC might encourage the executor to be more forthcoming about their progress with the estate. "In the 2018/19 tax year, HMRC investigated 5,537 estates for potential breaches. This figure represents a quarter of the estates liable to pay Inheritance Tax." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted January 31 Report Share Posted January 31 Quote Very true since that's not their remit 🙂 "HMRC only investigates criminal allegations of fraud, tax evasion, money laundering and other financial crimes. The decision whether to prosecute lies with the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS)" The decision to refer for prosecution is made at a very, very high level in HMRC. They have a reluctance to prosecute - full stop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
serrac Posted January 31 Report Share Posted January 31 On 29/01/2024 at 19:41, Mungler said: You’re all so far wide of the mark it hurts 😆 The OP needs to see a solicitor with litigation experience in this arena. Oh well, hopefully the OP has deep pockets. 5 minutes ago, Gordon R said: The decision to refer for prosecution is made at a very, very high level in HMRC. They have a reluctance to prosecute - full stop. The rogue executor probably won't know that, and if their handling of the estate finances is in any way questionable the thought of an HMRC investigation should be somewhat concerning. It's about shaking their perch, not putting them in jail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted January 31 Report Share Posted January 31 Quote The rogue executor probably won't know that, There is a time and place for bluffing, but I don't believe this is it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charliedog Posted January 31 Report Share Posted January 31 On 24/01/2024 at 17:34, serrac said: Actually there's more... "She has since given me an amount of money that I know is not any were near the true value of the estate" It appears she may have committed an offence by distributing funds to a beneficiary before submitting accounts to HMRC (which comes at the very end of the executry process). If I was the OP I would inform her that unless I am satisfied that she is acting with complete transparency from this point forward I will report the matter to HMRC, which would likely lead to an audit of the estate and possible criminal prosecution. Interim funds can be passed to beneficiary by executor before submitting accounts to HMRC, but it is at the executors risk (it is possible somebody could make a later claim against the estate) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
serrac Posted January 31 Report Share Posted January 31 1 hour ago, Gordon R said: There is a time and place for bluffing, but I don't believe this is it. What to do then assuming the OP doesn't have £15-20k to blow on a probably futile attempt to remove the executor? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mungler Posted January 31 Report Share Posted January 31 (edited) 1 hour ago, serrac said: What to do then assuming the OP doesn't have £15-20k to blow on a probably futile attempt to remove the executor? Not futile at all. Depending on the full facts, ie if there’s a valid Will with an entitlement, a year has passed and there’s evidence that the executor is refusing to execute their statutory duties to administer the estate in accordance with the Will or indeed is trying to distribute on a misleading basis (ie under pay a beneficiary / legacy) then why not? Costs are at the discretion of the Court but tend to ‘follow the event’ (ie the loser pays) and if the sister is in for half of the estate under the Will (and the estate contains worthwhile money / a property) then she’s a good litigation target ie she has money / assets to meet any judgment. Moreover, litigation is a staged process - if the sister sees a solicitor upon receipt of a letter before action, she will be advised of her statutory duties, the risks she’s running if she’s in breach and if she has sense it will resolve there - with one letter that won’t cost £15-20k. Indeed if the facts stack up, litigation becomes necessary to resolve the situation and as above the case is a runner / winner plus there’s a pot at the end of the rainbow ( ie a viable litigation) then there’s plenty of specialists that will take it no win no fee or indeed the OP may have legal expenses protection insurance. Obviously if there’s only a couple of grand in the estate it may not be worth the effort, but if there’s a mortgage free property of any sort and the OP is legitimately in for half, then why wouldn’t he be running to a solicitor right now? And as for HMRC, that’s a non starter. Yes write them a letter because it costs nothing but I’ll bet a penny to a pound they won’t give a monkeys unless the value is significant. Indeed, it would require a relatively significant estate of the OP to trigger IHT assuming the death of a survivor who was half of a married couple (if you look at those allowances). Again, if the estate is larger than those allowances, the OP should be running to a solicitor. . Edited January 31 by Mungler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
serrac Posted February 5 Report Share Posted February 5 It will be interesting to see how this issue is finally resolved for the OP. I'm not posting this as an argument to any of Mungler's excellent points above, It's just an incredible example of how the law can sometimes turn out to be a complete *** (at least in Scotland).https://www.dunfermlinepress.com/news/23908669.dunfermline-familys-campaign-close-legal-loophole-nearing-end/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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