License applications (and renewals and advice of changes for SGC holdings) to become "on line" only in West Mercia.

[JohnfromUK]

I had a bulletin today (30th April) from our Neighbourhood Watch which states that West Mercia are moving to 'on line" only applications - paper forms will no longer be issued or accepted.  Medical references must be scanned and 'attached'.  How much notice have we got?  12 hours.  This new system starts as from 1st May 2024 - from which date any paper new application transactions will not be accepted.

I hope that they have improved it since last time I renewed.  The "PDF" form used could only be added to, edited, completed and e mailed by a fully licensed PDF editor.  The 'free' versions of programmes such as Adobe Acrobat, or Apple's Preview were unable to save of send any changes.  The new form apparently cannot be 'saved' locally.

It seems (in the small print) that renewals will still be available to be submitted in paper form for a short transition period.

West Mercia's page on the issue here.  https://www.westmercia.police.uk/news/west-mercia/news/2024/april/firearms-licensing-applications-are-moving-online/

[HantsRob]

That's old news for some forces who have been electronic only (with an editable PDF without needing a paid subscription) for a while!

 

Sorry you're having struggles still!

[JohnfromUK]

42 minutes ago, HantsRob said:

Sorry you're having struggles still!

Thanks.  I've a few years to go on my present SGC yet, but hopefully the 'new' version now launched will be better.  I do pretty much all my other 'forms' on line no problems, but West Mercia's earlier on-line was an exception. 

The problem will be that a lot of older SGC and FAC people in the keepering and country persuits occupations are relatively unskilled with these areas.  Both keeper I know quite well have to use other family members to help with some 'on-line' tasks.

[rbrowning2]

nothing in law supports online only applications and for some it may not be possible.

They cannot insist the applicant gets help via a family member or a friend as personal data is part of the application and hence covered by the data protection act.

Yet again it is something the shooting organisation should be fighting against, not just accepting.

 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

15 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

nothing in law supports online only applications and for some it may not be possible.

They cannot insist the applicant gets help via a family member or a friend as personal data is part of the application and hence covered by the data protection act.

Yet again it is something the shooting organisation's  should be fighting against, not just accepting.

 

Amen to that.  

[JohnfromUK]

2 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

nothing in law supports online only applications and for some it may not be possible.

They cannot insist the applicant gets help via a family member or a friend as personal data is part of the application and hence covered by the data protection act.

Yet again it is something the shooting organisation should be fighting against, not just accepting.

 

Purely personally, I don't mind doing it 'on-line' if it now works as well as most other forms.  Last time I tried I had to either purchase additional software (which might not have done the job), or go paper.  I went paper, but that was a while ago and (I hope) its much better now.  Certainly other 'on-line' forms work fine.

My biggest complaint is that I was only notified literally the day before it started.  That seems very short sighted.  I do have concerns that a lot of rural SGC holders are probably less internet 'savvy' than average, and access to public library computers means a 5 mile drive, parking - and do you really want to put personal data in on a public computer?  The fact is - quite a few older people don't have either computers or the skills to use them.

[old'un]

"We understand that these changes may be daunting for some of our firearms certificated community, and we will continue to work closely with colleagues and organisations such as BASC and the Gamekeepers Association to support this moving forwards."

no mention of how you pay?

[Zoli 12 guage]

24 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

nothing in law supports online only applications and for some it may not be possible.

They cannot insist the applicant gets help via a family member or a friend as personal data is part of the application and hence covered by the data protection act.

Yet again it is something the shooting organisation should be fighting against, not just accepting.

 

good luck with that one😂

when was the last time ANY shooting organisation in this country stuck up for an actual shooter 😡

5 minutes ago, old'un said:

"We understand that these changes may be daunting for some of our firearms certificated community, and we will continue to work closely with colleagues and organisations such as BASC and the Gamekeepers Association to support this moving forwards."

no mention of how you pay?

they ring you up for the money and you furnish them with your debit/credit card details.

west yorks have been doing this for a while.

[London Best]

9 minutes ago, old'un said:

 

no mention of how you pay?

Through the nose, as usual!

[old'un]

Bloody hell, just looked at all the do’s and don’ts when using a public library computer, are these computer safe for this type of thing?

The future...I can see the sign now in Labour run councils….”these computers must not be used for anything gun, knife or drug related’

[Conor O'Gorman]

BASC is challenging this - it is unlawful and discriminatory. More to follow.

[HantsRob]

2 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

BASC is challenging this - it is unlawful and discriminatory. More to follow.

Discrimination has to be against a characteristic. You can't use age, as it doesn't cover the provision of goods or services. To my knowledge, a lack of IT skills doesn't fall under any protected characteristic in the form of discrimination. Can you tell me how it is legally discrimination?

I am not trying to be combative, and I also appreciate it affects a lot of people, but I don't see how it is either unlawful or discriminatory? If it is unlawful due to it being discrimination, I would be interested to know which protected category you are going with?

Probably just piqued my interest, but I would be keen to understand what law you believe it is breaking and how it is discrimination in the legal sense rather than moral sense. 

[udderlyoffroad]

18 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

The "PDF" form used could only be added to, edited, completed and e mailed by a fully licensed PDF editor.  The 'free' versions of programmes such as Adobe Acrobat, or Apple's Preview were unable to save of send any changes. 

There are in fact a few free PDF editors that will let you fill out forms; PDFgear gets decent feedback.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

32 minutes ago, HantsRob said:

Discrimination has to be against a characteristic. You can't use age, as it doesn't cover the provision of goods or services. To my knowledge, a lack of IT skills doesn't fall under any protected characteristic in the form of discrimination. Can you tell me how it is legally discrimination?

I am not trying to be combative, and I also appreciate it affects a lot of people, but I don't see how it is either unlawful or discriminatory? If it is unlawful due to it being discrimination, I would be interested to know which protected category you are going with?

Probably just piqued my interest, but I would be keen to understand what law you believe it is breaking and how it is discrimination in the legal sense rather than moral sense. 

Update below.

The decision is at odds with the government’s commitment that individuals who do not have access to the internet, should not be disadvantaged when dealing with public sector organisations. Furthermore, refusing to accept written applications is almost certainly indirect discrimination under the Equality Act 2010, as it penalises older certificate holders.

Also, West Mercia’s documentation implied that BASC was consulted on this decision – nothing could be further from the truth.
 

More info here:

https://basc.org.uk/basc-challenges-illegal-move-by-west-mercia-police/

[JohnfromUK]

49 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

There are in fact a few free PDF editors that will let you fill out forms; PDFgear gets decent feedback.

 

OK, thanks.  I believe from feedback I've had from others it is now a proper web form.  The previous 'version' I tried to use was a pdf form that required the person filling in the form to have not a 'reader' (as Apple's Preview which I have, or the free Adobe reader) but a proper editor.  They helpfully gave a link to a suitable one that wanted $30 (if I remember right) or you could have a free trial that didn't enable you to send the result of your 'trial' or save it.

Edited May 1 by JohnfromUK

[London Best]

3 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said:

There are in fact a few free PDF editors that will let you fill out forms; PDFgear gets decent feedback.

 

I am sure that’s fine if the person needing them knows what the heck you are talking about. 
I, and many others, don’t.

[HantsRob]

23 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Update below.

The decision is at odds with the government’s commitment that individuals who do not have access to the internet, should not be disadvantaged when dealing with public sector organisations. Furthermore, refusing to accept written applications is almost certainly indirect discrimination under the Equality Act 2010, as it penalises older certificate holders.

Also, West Mercia’s documentation implied that BASC was consulted on this decision – nothing could be further from the truth.
 

More info here:

https://basc.org.uk/basc-challenges-illegal-move-by-west-mercia-police/

Interesting.

I am still struggling slightly. I know of younger folk who are mostly IT illiterate, whereas you are only specifying older people. I think if you are going down the route of it being against older folk then you're on a hiding to nothing, and would invalidate your claim. Older folk have the ability (by and large) to buy or borrow technology, and ask friends for assistance. What about younger folk? What about those who choose to not use technology? 

I am merely stating they are disadvantaged by virtue of their lack of desire to own or understand technology, this in its own right would not constitute discrimination either direct or indirect. I think that is somewhat thin ice, and moreso that you are only targeting one force when many others are electronic only.

Also, someone could have spoken to a BASC person at a trade stand, that doesn't mean they haven't consulted BASC, it means they have but it hasn't been recorded. It doesn't make it untruthful.

 

All that to one side though, I am interested to see how this one pans out. One half of me has zero issues with moving with the times as electronic is very much better for audit trails and speed. But, I also would not want to see someone disadvantaged. I'm torn on this one Conor, but I am not sure it is unlawful.  

[Weihrauch17]

On 30/04/2024 at 20:48, JohnfromUK said:

I had a bulletin today (30th April) from our Neighbourhood Watch which states that West Mercia are moving to 'on line" only applications - paper forms will no longer be issued or accepted.  Medical references must be scanned and 'attached'.  How much notice have we got?  12 hours.  This new system starts as from 1st May 2024 - from which date any paper new application transactions will not be accepted.

I hope that they have improved it since last time I renewed.  The "PDF" form used could only be added to, edited, completed and e mailed by a fully licensed PDF editor.  The 'free' versions of programmes such as Adobe Acrobat, or Apple's Preview were unable to save of send any changes.  The new form apparently cannot be 'saved' locally.

It seems (in the small print) that renewals will still be available to be submitted in paper form for a short transition period.

West Mercia's page on the issue here.  https://www.westmercia.police.uk/news/west-mercia/news/2024/april/firearms-licensing-applications-are-moving-online/

Many people will not have scanners, me included.  Just another way to cut the numbers of people owning guns.

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, Weihrauch17 said:

Many people will not have scanners, me included.  Just another way to cut the numbers of people owning guns.

You can get a 'scan' quite well with your phone.  https://support.apple.com/en-gb/108963

[London Best]

2 minutes ago, Weihrauch17 said:

Many people will not have scanners, me included.  

Plus 1.

Paper forms.
Do we ever consider those who cannot write?

Just now, JohnfromUK said:

You can get a 'scan' quite well with your phone.  https://support.apple.com/en-gb/108963

If you have one of those clever phones. Not all of us do.

[Svenandolaf]

I completed my renewal at the end of last year with Thames Valley Police. All completed on my iPad and I just uploaded photos of the documents. Very easy to do and much easier than printing pages out and sending them off. Only issue was the 4 or 5 month wait for the new certificate. 

[screamingdead]

West Mercia have just posted this on their Socials:-

Earlier this week we announced applications for new firearms and shotgun licensing certificates will need to be submitted online.

This position has been challenged by BASC and we’d like to clarify the process.

To improve the process for the applicant we are encouraging, where possible, for applications to be made online. This process follows feedback from license holders and aims to speed up the process for applicants and support them with providing the correct details and content to each application. 

Through the manual process, where critical information is missing, an application will be rejected or returned to the applicant. This can add significant delays to the process. 

Online submissions will better support compliance with the application requirements, meeting statutory guidance and in maintaining public safety when issuing firearms certificates to the public.

Where there are issues affecting accessibility, a manual application may be submitted.  Applicants will be supported through the manual process by staff within our Firearms Licensing Unit, reasonable adjustments and alternative solutions will be made to assist applicants, where this may be the case.

The renewal process remains unchanged. 

For more information please visit our webpage on how to apply for a firearm or shotgun  : https://orlo.uk/XxfR4

If you have any questions or concerns about the process please contact the Firearms Licensing Team by visiting our website https://orlo.uk/hkwjO or by ringing 01905 727547.

[JohnfromUK]

Interesting.  Originally they said (cut and paste quote from the link in my opening post);

"From Wednesday 1 May 2024 all new firearms and shotgun licensing applications will need to be submitted online.  Printed applications will no longer be accepted."

This has now been 'clarified' (from your submission of their 'Socials' above) to;

"we are encouraging, where possible, for applications to be made online."

This looks like they have listened to BASC's challenge and been flexible and sensible.

I'm quite happy to give the on-line process a try when mine comes up in a few years, and if it works like most other web based forms - it should be OK.  However, to just send out a directive that "Printed applications will no longer be accepted"  giving only 12 hours notice was not a 'flexible and sensible' approach.

[Conor O'Gorman]

This decision came after a letter to the West Mercia Chief Constable from BASC CEO Ian Bell.

More details here:

https://basc.org.uk/basc-welcomes-west-mercia-decision-to-keep-paper-applications/

 

[rbrowning2]

Well done Conor.