Gun up or Gun down for sporting

[Gerry78]

I’m sure this has been covered before im looking a bit of advice I’ve been shooting sporting the last couple of months really enjoying it My problem is being a DTL shooter for years I’m still mounting the gun up(bad habit) for sporting my scores aren’t bad aren’t great either A lot of the targets on report im struggling to see them as my head is down on the stock 

[London Best]

I am not a clay shooter, but my opinion is that anybody who can only shoot gun up can’t really shoot at all.

[enfieldspares]

Do whatever you enjoy best within any rules that may, or may not, apply at the time you are having a round of birds. I always shoot gun down and do so as I see clay pigeon shooting as "practice" for game shooting and pigeon shooting. And that practice in the 1970s and 1980s was English Skeet shot, then, gun down. That still shooting gun down may put me at a disadvantage against those shooting gun up I don't care as when I am shooting clays I shoot for fun and for practice and not for scores.

[Gerry78]

27 minutes ago, enfieldspares said:

Do whatever you enjoy best within any rules that may, or may not, apply at the time you are having a round of birds. I always shoot gun down and do so as I see clay pigeon shooting as "practice" for game shooting and pigeon shooting. And that practice in the 1970s and 1980s was English Skeet shot, then, gun down. That still shooting gun down may put me at a disadvantage against those shooting gun up I don't care as when I am shooting clays I shoot for fun and for practice and not for scores.

Thanks Enfield probably just bad habit on my part at sporting The going away targets mounting gun up I’m hitting easy as well as the high tower clays coming towards the stand it’s the crossers that are catching me out 👍

 

38 minutes ago, London Best said:

I am not a clay shooter, but my opinion is that anybody who can only shoot gun up can’t really shoot at all.

Well tell that too the world champion trap shooters maybe that’s why you’re not a clay shooter if you read my post I use gun up on DTL And have brought it over to sporting which doesn’t always work Regarding field shooting in hide or walking up game birds I certainly don’t keep my gun up as this would be impossible!!

Edited June 18 by Gerry78

[enfieldspares]

12 minutes ago, Gerry78 said:

Thanks Enfield probably just bad habit on my part at sporting The going away targets mounting gun up I’m hitting easy as well as the high tower clays coming towards the stand it’s the crossers that are catching me out 👍

The thing with gun down is that the target if crossing away has three or maybe four yards advantage on you. Which will, yes, make it further away and so more difficult to hit. 

[Gerry78]

3 minutes ago, enfieldspares said:

The thing with gun down is that the target if crossing away has three or maybe four yards advantage on you. Which will, yes, make it further away and so more difficult to hit. 

Thanks Enfield I’ve noticed that with the crossers thanks for the advice 👍

[enfieldspares]

Hello Gerry. I went on a round of fifty with three other shooters today at Normanton Shooting Ground. They were all over and under and "gun up". I shot side by side (I've only side by sides apart from three Browning Auto-5 - two in 12 one on 16) and, as I always do, gun down. I even on an "on report" pair bring my gun down and remount for the second bird. On an "on report" pair that isn't (I've found) a self handicap on the second bird. But on the first bird I am, yes, taking it two, three, four yards later than the three others were. That means that the bird might now be out of that zone that makes it an easier kill. For example a belly on battue before it turns flat or a teal on the rise before it falls on the drop. Or on a sim pair starting together but going away on diverging courses they've now spread apart so that after I've caught and killed the first bird I've now to move the gun more to then catch up the second bird. So"gun down" can self handicap yourself in some situations. 

Edited June 18 by enfieldspares

[London Best]

35 minutes ago, Gerry78 said:

Well tell that too the world champion trap shooters maybe that’s why you’re not a clay shooter if you read my post I use gun up on DTL And have brought it over to sporting which doesn’t always work Regarding field shooting in hide or walking up game birds I certainly don’t keep my gun up as this would be impossible!!

Yes, I appreciate that when shooting a very specialist discipline like trap shooting that gun pre-mounted is the modus operandi. 
But you simply cannot use it elsewhere (in the field). But I have seen people who are just coming into the field from clay shooting who have only ever (ie been taught) to shoot gun up trying to do it when out shooting.

Good posts from enfieldspares.

[Zoli 12 guage]

since when,when you are shooting "sporting" in the field,on birds do you have your gun "at the ready" and either semi or fully shouldered.

so,that being said why would you pre shoulder your gun before you spot your target when shooting clays?

some clay disciplines outlaw the practice anyway.

Edited June 18 by Zoli 12 guage

[Westley]

1 hour ago, London Best said:

I am not a clay shooter, but my opinion is that anybody who can only shoot gun up can’t really shoot at all.

When you can shoot 100 straight at English skeet, all shot gun up, I may be tempted to believe you  ?   😂

[Gerry78]

19 minutes ago, London Best said:

Yes, I appreciate that when shooting a very specialist discipline like trap shooting that gun pre-mounted is the modus operandi. 
But you simply cannot use it elsewhere (in the field). But I have seen people who are just coming into the field from clay shooting who have only ever (ie been taught) to shoot gun up trying to do it when out shooting.

Good posts from enfieldspares.

LB thanks sir but I’m not talking about field shooting in my first post I’m asking gun up or down on certain sporting targets I agree 100 percent field shooting there is people who I’ve seen myself use gun up because that’s what they have been trained to do on the clay ground Which is wrong out on live quarry 

18 minutes ago, Zoli 12 guage said:

since when,when you are shooting "sporting" in the field,on birds do you have your gun "at the ready" and either semi or fully shouldered.

so,that being said why would you pre shoulder your gun before you spot your target when shooting clays?

some clay disciplines outlaw the practice anyway.

Zoli my point being after years of DTL Gun up I have the habit of doing the same on sporting which is wrong on some of the targets I certainly would not do it on walking up game as it’s unsafe and would be virtually impossible to do all day 

[Gerry78]

38 minutes ago, enfieldspares said:

Hello Gerry. I went on a round of fifty with three other shooters today at Normanton Shooting Ground. They were all over and under and "gun up". I shot side by side (I've only side by sides apart from three Browning Auto-5 - two in 12 one on 16) and, as I always do, gun down. I even on an "on report" pair bring my gun down and remount for the second bird. On an "on report" pair that isn't (I've found) a self handicap on the second bird. But on the first bird I am, yes, taking it two, three, four yards later than the three others were. That means that the bird might now be out of that zone that makes it an easier kill. For example a belly on battue before it turns flat or a teal on the rise before it falls on the drop. Or on a sim pair starting together but going away on diverging courses they've now spread apart so that after I've caught and killed the first bird I've now to move the gun more to then catch up the second bird. So"gun down" can self handicap yourself in some situations. 

Enfield that’s the advice and reply I’ve been looking thank you All said and done it’s my bad habit of taking a discipline like DTL and bringing it into sporting regarding gun mount My field shooting technique is totally different as you would expect with different terrain and quarry Thanks again 👍👍

[Westley]

To answer your question regarding 'gun up or down'. I have always shot gun down on sporting clays and skeet, but not on trap. However age and health have caught up with me, and I am now shooting a lot more targets 'gun up'. As you have described, shooting trap like targets or anything going up and away, or even away from below you, gun up is worth considering. On those crossing targets, try what is often referred to as a 'soft hold'.  This is where the heel of the stock is just out of the shoulder before calling for the target. This enables you to clearly see the target and mount what should be a moving gun. Just do not fall into the trap of starting with the gun somewhere around your waist, you are leaving too much to do to get the gun to your shoulder. Look on YouTube, there are some very good videos covering the subject. I too shoot with people who only ever shoot gun up, they seem to get by. Personally I find on some targets, shooting gun up is actually a handicap, in particular that long incomer, or the high tower, mounting too soon can cause you to 'track' the target and miss.

Edited June 18 by Westley

[Gerry78]

4 minutes ago, Westley said:

To answer your question regarding 'gun up or down'. I have always shot gun down on sporting clays and skeet, but not on trap. However age and health have caught up with me, and I am now shooting a lot more targets 'gun up'. As you have described, shooting trap like targets or anything going up and away, or even away from below you, gun up is worth considering. On those crossing targets, try what is often referred to as a 'soft hold'.  This is where the heel of the stock is just out of the shoulder before calling for the target. This enables you to clearly see the target and mount what should be a moving gun. Just do not fall into the trap of starting with the gun somewhere around your waist, you are leaving too much to do to get the gun to your shoulder. Look on YouTube, there are some very good videos covering the subject.

Westly thanks for the helpful reply so on crossers you advising keep the gun down not too low but enough so I can see the crosser as it leaves the trap then mount for a pick up point 👍

[enfieldspares]

Interestingly the three other shooters today asked my why I wasn't "gun up". I said that for a shotgun I'd never shot "gun up" but that when I used a rifle expecting a close range "target of opportunity" I mostly always carried and indeed moved with the rifle "gun up" in the shoulder. 

[Smudger687]

2 hours ago, Gerry78 said:

I’m sure this has been covered before im looking a bit of advice I’ve been shooting sporting the last couple of months really enjoying it My problem is being a DTL shooter for years I’m still mounting the gun up(bad habit) for sporting my scores aren’t bad aren’t great either A lot of the targets on report im struggling to see them as my head is down on the stock 

You could always just try it and see how you get on? You'll feel a bit rushed at first but if you stick with it you'll soon realise that you have bags of time for most targets.

Alternatively if you're into clay shooting only and you see your targets in advance it may well be easier to just get your gun in position for the report clay from memory, then wait for it to come into view.

[Westley]

27 minutes ago, Gerry78 said:

Westly thanks for the helpful reply so on crossers you advising keep the gun down not too low but enough so I can see the crosser as it leaves the trap then mount for a pick up point 👍

More or less, yes. Before entering the stand (if you can), watch the first target out. Decide where you first see it CLEARLY, which could be several yards out from the trap. Then decide where you are going to shoot it, roughly mid way between those 2 points is the barrel position. Then look to either right or left of your gun to see the target, moving the gun in the same direction as the clay appears.  Once the gun is in cheek and shoulder, you should be pointing at it, simply pull ahead and 'Bang'. Try this on the Skeet range, just stick to single birds from one direction, then having mastered those, swap to the opposite target and repeat. It is easier to instruct this on the range than it is to do a written explanation. 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

It is all down to personal preference, a shooter that starts their time on clays will usually be a gun up shooter.

Whereas a shooter of live quarry will be a gun down man.

My eldest son started on clays and has moved up to live shooting, he has put a lot of time in to getting a good consistent mount and achieving a steady mount for game.

He has just joined a grouse syndicate and will be out on the 12th of August for his first day, he will not be shooting gun down on the moors.

 

I shoot registered competitions for fun, I am only trying to beat my average.

I shoot gun up for trap disciplines and clays that are going away fast on English Sporting stands. I shoot gun down to varying degrees for everything else.

One point which I think London Best will agree with, watch how many clay shooters enter the stand, pre mount and then do the little dance in preparation for calling "pull".

Not very natural at all.

 

By all means have a plan, put your feet in the right place, but no amount of pre-mounting please.

You have either developed a good consistent mount, gained the muscle memory from practicing with an empty gun in the front room for hours or you haven't.

And once you have a gun that fits you and have a good consistent mount, then with practice at various grounds you can improve until age catches up with you and then the body will be the problem.

 

Get out there, shoot as much as you can and enjoy yourself safely.

 

Good luck.

[ditchman]

if you are shooting gun down...make sure you havt got a sticky rubber butt plate...and wear something that will allow your butt to slide slickly into position

[TIGHTCHOKE]

29 minutes ago, ditchman said:

if you are shooting gun down...make sure you havt got a sticky rubber butt plate...and wear something that will allow your butt to slide slickly into position

Or move the gun out, up and in to get round that particular BUTT problem.

[Gerry78]

3 hours ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

It is all down to personal preference, a shooter that starts their time on clays will usually be a gun up shooter.

Whereas a shooter of live quarry will be a gun down man.

My eldest son started on clays and has moved up to live shooting, he has put a lot of time in to getting a good consistent mount and achieving a steady mount for game.

He has just joined a grouse syndicate and will be out on the 12th of August for his first day, he will not be shooting gun down on the moors.

 

I shoot registered competitions for fun, I am only trying to beat my average.

I shoot gun up for trap disciplines and clays that are going away fast on English Sporting stands. I shoot gun down to varying degrees for everything else.

One point which I think London Best will agree with, watch how many clay shooters enter the stand, pre mount and then do the little dance in preparation for calling "pull".

Not very natural at all.

 

By all means have a plan, put your feet in the right place, but no amount of pre-mounting please.

You have either developed a good consistent mount, gained the muscle memory from practicing with an empty gun in the front room for hours or you haven't.

And once you have a gun that fits you and have a good consistent mount, then with practice at various grounds you can improve until age catches up with you and then the body will be the problem.

 

Get out there, shoot as much as you can and enjoy yourself safely.

 

Good luck.

 

1 hour ago, ditchman said:

if you are shooting gun down...make sure you havt got a sticky rubber butt plate...and wear something that will allow your butt to slide slickly into position

Thank you I think all said and done some of the sporting targets will be gun up going away etc gun down for crossers etc thanks for the replies 👍👍

[Westley]

45 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Or move the gun out, up and in to get round that particular BUTT problem.

Do you think the Butt problem could be causing that 'little dance' you refer to  ?

Terrible thing haemorrhoids  !

[ditchman]

2 hours ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Or move the gun out, up and in to get round that particular BUTT problem.

that too...quite so...........i find i used to do that when wearing a thick shooting jacket on game days...

[Poor Shot]

A mixture of both gun up and gun down depending on the target presentation is the correct answer. If you are serious about scores when clay target shooting then I wouldn't take too much notice of anyone who shoot clays purely for game shooting practice or anyone that says that people who shoot gun up can't shoot. Any AAA sporting shooter would wipe the floor with anyone on the forum no matter what the target but will still shoot gun up for the majority of sporting targets because it gives you an obvious advantage. Dave Carrie is/ was a champion shooter and is probably still a AA or AAA shot and will shoot every target that benefits from being shot gun up in a gun up fashion. Not a single person here can argue against his overall shooting ability.

I'm no George Digweed but I do take clay shooting serious and shoot registered competitions in english sporting, FITASC, super sporting etc. I also shoot game, pest control and enjoy wildfowling so a good mix. 

Personally, I try to tailor my approach to each stand depending on the first target being presented. If it's a fast moving crosser, has a limited window of opportunity, a going away or quartering trap style target then I'll always shoot gun up. Where a target has a long time in the air like a crow or big crosser, looper or battue target and there is risk that I can start hanging onto or trying to measure a target then I will start with a FITASC style gun down position. Some targets are taken with a half up/ half down, cheek off the stock and head turned to see the target type approach. If you're shooting FITASC then you've no choice and all targets must start from a gun down position. 

When shooting live birds it can vary from the butt of the gun resting on my hip with the barrels pointing straight up when on peg to being sat crouched in a reen with the gun barrels pointing down in front when on the marsh. I can effectively mount from near any position but I wouldn't dream of doing any of these on a sporting stand for a variety of reasons. 

It's whatever works for the individual and you can spend years trying to find what works best for you. First and foremost you should be able to correctly shoulder a gun, identify where your going to see the target, where your going to hold the gun and where your going to shoot the target. Without these you are just guessing each and every time you call pull. If you're a long term DTL shooter then you should be able to do the former but not necessarily the latter.

Always try and get a good look at the targets before you shoot. If there is someone in the stand before you then get up behind them and position yourself in a line with where you'll be standing and start planning from there. You'll have at least 3 pairs to observe and create a plan of attack. Obviously be careful and respectful to the shooter already in the stand but chances are they'll be locked into the task at hand and won't notice you're there unless you're standing virtually on top of them. If you're first in the stand then always ask the ref to show you a pair and let him know you want to see A target first and then B target on your command. Don't let them fling two targets out at random as you won't get a chance to plan effectively. On a simultaneous pair, you can ask for two pairs taking note of the A target on the first pair and B target on the second. You can then decide in which order you will attack them and where. More often than not, even if you aren't first in the stand you can ask to see a pair when you get in and the ref will oblige. The worst they can say is no and some grounds will state on the stands target board whether this is permitted or not. 

Also worth knowing the rules inside and out. 90% of refs, even in registered competitions, are low or unpaid volunteers which don't have a clue about the rules and are given training on the morning of the shoot in the case of first timers. Knowing when you claim for no targets, distractions etc can gain you that extra one or two points over a 100 target course. On last weekends competition for example, I lost one point on a stand where a pigeon crossed directly in front of me as the target was presented taking my focus off of the target resulting in a lost target. I should have not taken the shot, lowered the gun, called distraction and taken the pair again. I'm not a AA or AAA class shooter but at that level one target can make the difference between you coming 1st or 21st. Taking the pigeon did cross my mind but It would have resulted in possibly a yellow card and lost target anyway for those who are wondering. I also wouldn't have been able to retrieve it so a bit pointless really. 

Don't worry about chokes or cartridges. 1/4 choke in each barrel and 24g 7.5s or 8s will take 95% of targets that you'll see on a UK english sporting layout. I use skeet and 1/4 with 28g english 8's and I can recall one time that I've altered this in the last 10 registered sporting comps. It was for a 65 yard (confirmed by the ground) battue target and only then I changed to a 1/2 choke with a 28g Italian 7.5 (english 7 shot) which broke the target convincingly.  

Edited June 19 by Poor Shot

[Jega]

Whatever the target presentaion is , for the long range stuff gun down , for the really quick close in stuff gun up or at least partially up .

Edited June 19 by Jega