How much is it really...

[old man]

2 hours ago, Gordon R said:

Raja - you tell me how many illegals there are. You call my claim ridiculous, but can't come up with an alternative. People entering the country illegally are committing a criminal offence and many go on to commit many more crimes. The proportion of illegals in prison is disproportionate to the numbers who have entered.

I have no prejudice against any race, colour or creed, but object to economic migrants posing as people fleeing from persecution and bringing the country down.

Steady on Gordon. Far too much common sense there.

1 hour ago, Penelope said:

It is what is needed though; indigenous birth rates across the the Westernised world are falling through the floor.

Persecuted Asylum Seeker; it's what the 'left' minded want us to call them, whether they believe it or not.

Surely, it can only be 'the plan'; happening in too many places.

Seemingly the only persecuted sector are the ones who have paid in and supported the system?

[Zoli 12 guage]

42 minutes ago, Weihrauch17 said:

And they were costing the French £0 each, our Govt's provide the draw with all the freebies.  Those must be stopped but they won't be.

this is what boils my urine 😡

how come "les frogs" are signed up to the same conventions as us AND THE EU CONVENTIONS but they're dossing in tents and under tin sheets BUT WE give them 4 and 5 star hotels, healthcare and dentistry,phones and a monetary allowance 🤔🤔🤔

it cost me 74 quid last Tuesday to sit in the dentists chair for less than 15 minutes.

[Weihrauch17]

32 minutes ago, Zoli 12 guage said:

this is what boils my urine 😡

how come "les frogs" are signed up to the same conventions as us AND THE EU CONVENTIONS but they're dossing in tents and under tin sheets BUT WE give them 4 and 5 star hotels, healthcare and dentistry,phones and a monetary allowance 🤔🤔🤔

it cost me 74 quid last Tuesday to sit in the dentists chair for less than 15 minutes.

Looks like Labour have no desire to stop anybody.

https://www.express.co.uk/comment/expresscomment/1921426/neil-basu-border-control-disaster

[Raja Clavata]

3 hours ago, Gordon R said:

Raja - you tell me how many illegals there are. You call my claim ridiculous, but can't come up with an alternative. People entering the country illegally are committing a criminal offence and many go on to commit many more crimes. The proportion of illegals in prison is disproportionate to the numbers who have entered.

I have no prejudice against any race, colour or creed, but object to economic migrants posing as people fleeing from persecution and bringing the country down.

So you just wildly guessed at 6M or not?

Let’s boil it down and keep it simple for the hard of thinking. For arguments sake, assume it’s all Blair’s fault and there were roughly none until he exited office in 2007. In order for there to be 6M today that equates to ~1000 people per day every day since July 2007. Is that roughly what you are suggesting!?

I’ll take your belief that you harbour no prejudice at face value but I don’t recall a response to my questioning your bias on the subject it few days ago…

[Gordon R]

Raja - I didn't wildly guess, but still await your figure. I don't think it will come any time soon.

You didn't get a response to your question about anti-semitism as it was unworthy of a reply. You asked for balance in replies, but can't bring yourself to answer a simple question.

I worry about your motives.

[Rewulf]

24 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

So you just wildly guessed at 6M or not?

The worrying aspect is that if you try to find an agreed figure, you will be a on a road to nowhere...
Although 6 million sounds excessive, it certainly wouldnt surprise me, the problem is people like yourself dont like to think of it in those terms.
Its a bit like when they kept talking about an estimated 3 million EU migrants in limbo after Brexit, even though they knew over 6 million+  NI numbers had been issued.
When the right to remain system was introduced for EU nationals , guess how many applied ? 6 million, and rising.
3 million people they didnt know about, and thats just the ones who bothered to apply for a NI number, and doesnt count their under 16 YO kids.

27 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

assume it’s all Blair’s fault and there were roughly none until he exited office in 2007. In order for there to be 6M today that equates to ~1000 people per day every day since July 2007.

Its true , there wasnt really an issue with illegal immigration before blair, the stats speak for themselves, but to think 1000 a day is excessive ?
We get that nearly every day at the moment in small boats, and that isnt the primary point of ingress, and never has been, its just more visible

[Gordon R]

Rewulf - thanks for that.

Perhaps Raja should start his own research by asking how many excess National Insurance numbers are currently active, compared to alleged population.

[Raja Clavata]

34 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

The worrying aspect is that if you try to find an agreed figure, you will be a on a road to nowhere...
Although 6 million sounds excessive, it certainly wouldnt surprise me, the problem is people like yourself dont like to think of it in those terms.
Its a bit like when they kept talking about an estimated 3 million EU migrants in limbo after Brexit, even though they knew over 6 million+  NI numbers had been issued.
When the right to remain system was introduced for EU nationals , guess how many applied ? 6 million, and rising.
3 million people they didnt know about, and thats just the ones who bothered to apply for a NI number, and doesnt count their under 16 YO kids.

Its true , there wasnt really an issue with illegal immigration before blair, the stats speak for themselves, but to think 1000 a day is excessive ?
We get that nearly every day at the moment in small boats, and that isnt the primary point of ingress, and never has been, its just more visible

Thanks for replying with a coherent response helping out Gordon who clearly struggles accepting anyone with an alternative view to his all knowing one.

I’m merely of the opinion that 1000 per day every day since 2007 sounds excessive.

Whatever the number do we assume they’ve all stayed put and none of them have died. Perhaps these “illegals” are immortal too 😂

If the number is really 12 million then I’d rather know, I was purely asking where the 6 million figure came from, apparently Gordon knows just doesn’t feel comfortable sharing it.

[Raja Clavata]

1 hour ago, Gordon R said:

Raja - I didn't wildly guess, but still await your figure. I don't think it will come any time soon.

You didn't get a response to your question about anti-semitism as it was unworthy of a reply. You asked for balance in replies, but can't bring yourself to answer a simple question.

I worry about your motives.

Let me get this right, it’s ok for you to make claims and not substantiate them. It’s also ok for you to judge a response unworthy and ignore it whilst constantly demanding a response from others. Interesting.

 

[Gordon R]

I stated the facts as I know them. You call them ridiculous without any facts to refute them. 

I see little point in discussing anything with you. I don't find it interesting and find you rather limited and selective.

Feel free to have the last word - I'm sure your ego would demand it.

[B686]

Doesn’t matter how many are here exactly. But there are too many here now for this country to afford or should I say the tax payers to pay for when most are struggling to keep themselves let alone all these illegals coming here . Maybe these people so concerned for them should have some live with them.

[Westley]

1 minute ago, B686 said:

Doesn’t matter how many are here exactly. But there are too many here now for this country to afford or should I say the tax payers to pay for when most are struggling to keep themselves let alone all these illegals coming here . Maybe these people so concerned for them should have some live with them.

Yes, and pay for their keep  !

[B686]

Probably wouldn’t be so keen to speak up for them then . 

[old man]

Why can't there be a common sense approach to anything here?

Too many idle home grown...... sort it?

Too many freeloader booties...... sort it?

Just turn the easy money off.

[Rewulf]

29 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

I’m merely of the opinion that 1000 per day every day since 2007 sounds excessive.

It SOUNDS excessive, but we cant discount it as being true can we ?
Like Ive said, the primary point of ingress is not small boats, it never has been, yet our government of the last few years would have us believe its virtually the ONLY point of ingress, because they tie that into asylum applications.
The problem is they cant even agree on the figures for that, take for example the year June 22 to June 23 
 

3.1. Number of people arriving by small boat

Statistics on small boats include individuals who were detected on arrival to the UK, detected in the Channel and subsequently brought to the UK, and those encountered in the UK who were suspected of having arrived on a small boat within the previous 72 hours. They do not include any persons who arrived on larger vessels (such as on a ferry), those who arrived in the UK undetected or those prevented from departing France or intercepted by French authorities and returned to France (see the ‘About the statistics’ section for more details).

There were 44,460 people detected arriving by small boats in the year ending June 2023, 26% higher than in the year ending June 2022. However, this increase was concentrated in the first 6 months of the period as arrivals from January to June 2023 were 10% lower than those in the same period of 2022. Just over half (53%) of arrivals in the year ending June 2023 were in the 3 months from August to October 2022. August 2022 saw the highest number of small boat arrivals (8,574) of any month since data has been collected.

 

67,337 asylum applications

 

There were 67,337 asylum applications (relating to 84,425 people)* in the UK in 2023, 17% lower than the number of applications in 2022 (81,130 applications, relating to 99,939 people). As shown in figure 1, the latest number of applications is 20% lower than the previous peak in 2002 (84,132 applications).

*Different numbers due to family applications.

The main issue is that most illegals in this country never got logged, because they didnt enter illegally.
Over stayed visas.
Passport swap.
Fake marriages.
False documentation.
These people are invisible to the system, they are lost.
No they cant claim benefits, they cant 'legally' work, but they live here, take up housing and medical care, they are the true black market economy and certainly dont pay tax.
They certainly wont appear on any census.
But what they are doing is naturalising themselves, forming relationships and having children, eventually they will surface, or get caught, and then use the ECHR to claim they have every right to be here, but the system wont recognise them as being an illegal entry, because theres no proof of it.

So 6 million ? Maybe more , maybe less, but the system really has no idea of the true figure.

[Raja Clavata]

12 minutes ago, old man said:

Why can't there be a common sense approach to anything here?

Too many idle home grown...... sort it?

Too many freeloader booties...... sort it?

Just turn the easy money off.

Because it’s convenient to the elite for the majority of us plebs to be fixated / hysterical on one topic. If the illegal immigration issue gets fixed there’ll be another hot potato along to replace it soon afterwards.

Part of the issue is that whilst these things can be fixed, people generally aren’t prepared to suffer any personal detriment as a consequence of achieving said resolution. Hence resistance to a big brother state, ID cards, going cashless etc.

8 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

It SOUNDS excessive, but we cant discount it as being true can we ?
Like Ive said, the primary point of ingress is not small boats, it never has been, yet our government of the last few years would have us believe its virtually the ONLY point of ingress, because they tie that into asylum applications.
The problem is they cant even agree on the figures for that, take for example the year June 22 to June 23 
 

3.1. Number of people arriving by small boat

Statistics on small boats include individuals who were detected on arrival to the UK, detected in the Channel and subsequently brought to the UK, and those encountered in the UK who were suspected of having arrived on a small boat within the previous 72 hours. They do not include any persons who arrived on larger vessels (such as on a ferry), those who arrived in the UK undetected or those prevented from departing France or intercepted by French authorities and returned to France (see the ‘About the statistics’ section for more details).

There were 44,460 people detected arriving by small boats in the year ending June 2023, 26% higher than in the year ending June 2022. However, this increase was concentrated in the first 6 months of the period as arrivals from January to June 2023 were 10% lower than those in the same period of 2022. Just over half (53%) of arrivals in the year ending June 2023 were in the 3 months from August to October 2022. August 2022 saw the highest number of small boat arrivals (8,574) of any month since data has been collected.

 

67,337 asylum applications

 

There were 67,337 asylum applications (relating to 84,425 people)* in the UK in 2023, 17% lower than the number of applications in 2022 (81,130 applications, relating to 99,939 people). As shown in figure 1, the latest number of applications is 20% lower than the previous peak in 2002 (84,132 applications).

*Different numbers due to family applications.

The main issue is that most illegals in this country never got logged, because they didnt enter illegally.
Over stayed visas.
Passport swap.
Fake marriages.
False documentation.
These people are invisible to the system, they are lost.
No they cant claim benefits, they cant 'legally' work, but they live here, take up housing and medical care, they are the true black market economy and certainly dont pay tax.
They certainly wont appear on any census.
But what they are doing is naturalising themselves, forming relationships and having children, eventually they will surface, or get caught, and then use the ECHR to claim they have every right to be here, but the system wont recognise them as being an illegal entry, because theres no proof of it.

So 6 million ? Maybe more , maybe less, but the system really has no idea of the true figure.

I’m not discounting the 6M, just requested a reference, source, justification or rationale.

What I stated as ridiculous was the implication that it costs us circa 10% of our GDP. 

[Raja Clavata]

Coming back on an earlier point about referring to dehumanisation of illegal immigrants is it can be seen as the thin end of the wedge to justifying unacceptable treatment of them.

Compound that with right leaning tendencies, calls for removal of conventions on human rights and you create red flags in the minds of some. 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

11 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Coming back on an earlier point about referring to dehumanisation of illegal immigrants is it can be seen as the thin end of the wedge to justifying unacceptable treatment of them.

Compound that with right leaning tendencies, calls for removal of conventions on human rights and you create red flags in the minds of some. 

So, do you think we should take all and sundry?

Genuine refugees escaping from persecution are rather different to young males wanting a better life and running away rather than changing where they originated from.

[Raja Clavata]

3 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

So, do you think we should take all and sundry?

Genuine refugees escaping from persecution are rather different to young males wanting a better life and running away rather than changing where they originated from.

Not at all, it needs to be stopped as it serves both us as the general populace as well as the bonafide asylum seekers.

I really want to see it stopped as it’ll pause Farage for a while, until he finds something else to poison our minds with.

Whilst unpopular, Blair was bang on in this regard, disliking him doesn’t mean he’s always wrong 😉

[Rewulf]

22 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Part of the issue is that whilst these things can be fixed, people generally aren’t prepared to suffer any personal detriment as a consequence of achieving said resolution. Hence resistance to a big brother state, ID cards, going cashless etc.

Why should we have to accept a doctrine where our freedoms are inhibited ?
The legal, having to prove we are legal, when the illegal move undetected at will.
Like I said , banning something, or at the very least controlling something, doesnt stop those outside of the law using it.
Think of occupied France during WW2 , ID cards, a military controlled state , harsh penalties for dissidents, yet they operated an extensive resistance, moving spies, downed airmen , black market , weapons ect.
Some medications hurt the patient more than the disease.

Yet all we need to do is make it known that we will be accepting no more asylum claims, all applicant will be sent back to France.
Impossible, because the ECHR and the 1951 convention, designed to repatriate WW2 refugees, prevents it.
What would be the point of paying for a crossing, if there was no land of milk and honey waiting ?

23 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Coming back on an earlier point about referring to dehumanisation of illegal immigrants is it can be seen as the thin end of the wedge to justifying unacceptable treatment of them.

They get treated better than our own homeless, get to see doctors and dentists far easier than the general populace, are fed , clothed and housed for free, have access to interpreters, legal aid and are given spending money, what part of that is 'unacceptable treatment' 
Did they get any of that in France, or were they forced to live in tents, and reliant for food from charities ?
You said its dehumanising to call them illegal migrants, but thats what they are.
Call them refugees if you prefer, but most of them are only fleeing poverty in their own land, but by overwhelming housing and services here , are creating poverty here, where will they flee then ?

 

11 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

I really want to see it stopped as it’ll pause Farage for a while, until he finds something else to poison our minds with.

Youre pretty fixated with old Nigel arent you😄 ?
If the migrant problem was fixed, he would cease to exist, and you could sleep easier at night ?

[TIGHTCHOKE]

25 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Not at all, it needs to be stopped as it serves both us as the general populace as well as the bonafide asylum seekers.

I really want to see it stopped as it’ll pause Farage for a while, until he finds something else to poison our minds with.

Whilst unpopular, Blair was bang on in this regard, disliking him doesn’t mean he’s always wrong 😉

And liking him does not make him correct, he is a washed up old man who should have been arrested years ago.

[Raja Clavata]

44 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Why should we have to accept a doctrine where our freedoms are inhibited ?
The legal, having to prove we are legal, when the illegal move undetected at will.
Like I said , banning something, or at the very least controlling something, doesnt stop those outside of the law using it.
Think of occupied France during WW2 , ID cards, a military controlled state , harsh penalties for dissidents, yet they operated an extensive resistance, moving spies, downed airmen , black market , weapons ect.
Some medications hurt the patient more than the disease.

Yet all we need to do is make it known that we will be accepting no more asylum claims, all applicant will be sent back to France.
Impossible, because the ECHR and the 1951 convention, designed to repatriate WW2 refugees, prevents it.
What would be the point of paying for a crossing, if there was no land of milk and honey waiting ?

They get treated better than our own homeless, get to see doctors and dentists far easier than the general populace, are fed , clothed and housed for free, have access to interpreters, legal aid and are given spending money, what part of that is 'unacceptable treatment' 
Did they get any of that in France, or were they forced to live in tents, and reliant for food from charities ?
You said its dehumanising to call them illegal migrants, but thats what they are.
Call them refugees if you prefer, but most of them are only fleeing poverty in their own land, but by overwhelming housing and services here , are creating poverty here, where will they flee then ?

 

Youre pretty fixated with old Nigel arent you😄 ?
If the migrant problem was fixed, he would cease to exist, and you could sleep easier at night ?

Neither Farage nor illegal immigrants keep me awake at night.

31 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

And liking him does not make him correct, he is a washed up old man who should have been arrested years ago.

My point was I don’t like him but that doesn’t make him always wrong. So I think we’re in agreement here.

[discobob]

From a friend who works in utilities (waste) and from their calculations they reckon they are dealing with a population close to 80 million. 
 

Everybody needs a toilet!!

[oowee]

5 minutes ago, discobob said:

From a friend who works in utilities (waste) and from their calculations they reckon they are dealing with a population close to 80 million. 
 

Everybody needs a toilet!!

🤣🤣🤣 80m is that the number of loos, uses per day, volume of effluent? Ask him for the calcs we would all be interested. 

Edited July 10 by oowee

[discobob]

2 minutes ago, oowee said:

🤣🤣🤣 80m is that the number of loos, uses per day, volume of effluent? Ask him for the calcs we would all be interested. 

He works in designing treatment plants. Therefore they need to know the “quantities” they are dealing with - and they know about what quantities they have dealt with historically- it is simple extrapolation