Raynor's plan

[Zoli 12 guage]

7 hours ago, oowee said:

😁

 

👍 Blair could not stop global change. It started with the UK car industry being a UK car industry. Those that went global survived those that stayed local are gone. We completely lost and devalued training and excellence across the spectrum. We are very good at the elite end of education but for the masses it's completely failed. 

Blair in 2001 made the education education education speech for his second term but it needs to be a cross party mainstream ambition. Some would say its better to cut spending on health than to cut education. 

eh,the UK car industry was never big enough to be a global player,with the notable exceptions of Land Rover,Rolls Royce and possibly Jaguar.

the vehicle quality,build and otherwise coupled with the failure to keep up with technology punters could get in foreign built equivalents and the strikes that plagued the industry put paid to it.

[Raja Clavata]

41 minutes ago, Zoli 12 guage said:

eh,the UK car industry was never big enough to be a global player,with the notable exceptions of Land Rover,Rolls Royce and possibly Jaguar.

the vehicle quality,build and otherwise coupled with the failure to keep up with technology punters could get in foreign built equivalents and the strikes that plagued the industry put paid to it.

Are you an expert / industry analyst in automotive?

[Zoli 12 guage]

1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said:

Are you an expert / industry analyst in automotive?

well yeh, obviously as you've failed to autopsy my reasoning and counter with your own argument and instead just asked a stupid question 👍

[Raja Clavata]

15 minutes ago, Zoli 12 guage said:

well yeh, obviously as you've failed to autopsy my reasoning and counter with your own argument and instead just asked a stupid question 👍

OK, was just asking. 

Your first paragraph is self contradicting, but never mind that, why have you not included Mini, McLaren or Aston Martin Lagonda?

Your second paragraph contradicts the first since a good proportion of the survivors continue to have quality issues.

One of the facts of the matter was that, despite us being in the EU, it was much easier and cheaper to shut down UK plants than those on the mainland.

Need I continue with my counter reasoning?

[dainty duck]

On 23/07/2024 at 18:11, oowee said:

You can't keep a good man down. Blair like him or not is a brilliant tactician. 

I hear this morning that public finances are so bad that we need economic growth of at least 2.5% for each of the next five years to avoid a hole in the public finances. The recent labour bill to ensure that the OBR has scrutiny over fiscal announcements is another great move. It follows Labours last move to give the BoE independence to set monetary policy. Nothing like this has been done by the so called Tory govt. 

Unfortunately the OBR changes are too late for the Tory Truss budget that we are all still paying for and will be for the next 20 years. At last we have fiscal management, with economic growth at the heart of govt. This is more conservative by far than the last govt. 

All that Rwanda carp has been binned and the waste curtailed all within a few weeks. Labour are left with hard choices and will no doubt be criticised for making them but make them they will. Better to be decisive than procrastinate and let the deep wounds fester. 

The public voted to make themselves poorer with the Brexit vote. Lets hope that labour can make a better fist of it than the dithering bunch of dip sticks that have just left office. Whatever they do will be better than the outgoing wasters, lets hope they can bring some pride, relevance and prosperity to this "once" great country. 

oh

Edited July 26 by dainty duck

[Zoli 12 guage]

1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said:

OK, was just asking. 

Your first paragraph is self contradicting, but never mind that, why have you not included Mini, McLaren or Aston Martin Lagonda?

Your second paragraph contradicts the first since a good proportion of the survivors continue to have quality issues.

One of the facts of the matter was that, despite us being in the EU, it was much easier and cheaper to shut down UK plants than those on the mainland.

Need I continue with my counter reasoning?

errrrrrr,mini was made by Austin which was then part of British Leyland which went mammaries up because of the reasons I gave and was only bought by the Germans because of it's niche market.

AND the reasons i never mentioned the others, including McLaren/Aston Martin/Lotus/caterham/Morgan etc is because they are not a "volume" manufacturer.

as far shutting down "UK manufacturing plants" goes in favour of Europe,where were the European plants for Austin/Morris/Triumph/Rover/MG/Hillman etc,etc,etc.

even when some of them came under the British Leyland umbrella they still manufactured in Britain until continual strikes like at Longbridge and sub standard products sent them under.

as far as quality issues goes,Range Rover is still one of the worst offenders but having had one for all of 12 months with 2 gear boxes and various electrical faults done under warranty and leaving me stranded 3 times because it either wouldn't start or just stopped,i'd never buy another.

it doesn't,to this day,stop customers paying over 100 grand for one still,so what's your point.

it's called customer loyalty and Ferrari/Lamborghini etc still have the same issues but they still sell.

Edited July 26 by Zoli 12 guage

[Gordon R]

Zoli 12 guage - you are in danger of letting facts cloud the issue. Whilst you are correct, some will never accept that. 🙂

 

[Penelope]

On 25/07/2024 at 13:48, janner said:

You are so of the mark when trying to justify the use of the tetm 'illegals' when referring to human beings,

I suggest that you find an article proving your use of the derogatory and stigmatising term and post it, as you will not be able to find one i suggest you instead search instead 'why no human is illegal' and then perhaps you will understand a bit more about the meaning of the term 'humanity"

Atb 

Been chewing the shrooms again?

[old man]

21 hours ago, oowee said:

Channel effect seems far more plausible coupled with the lack of staff to process applications. Sounds to me like the perfect storm.  Unless you have some alternative data set. 

I would want to understand what that that net migration figure is composed of before getting even more annoyed with the Tory govt wasters than I am. You seem to imagine that civil service administrators are making policy. Its heart warming that you hold them in such high esteem but I suspect that they are doing the bidding of ministers. 

Before you can ask the question where will they live, work and integrate you need to explain who they are. You will recall we had a discussion about the need for long term EU residents in the UK to register. If this explains a percentage then you would expect that they are dispersed and living across the UK. 

You will recall that we opted for Brexit and as a result opened the country to potentially larger immigration numbers. Without the availability of skilled workers from the EU we are more likely to seek workers from the Asian sub continent with the associated larger families. These in turn are far less likely to want to return to their origins than a worker from the EU. 

Lead by example. ? Or if we were part of a large trading block (🤣) start to raise carbon tax to encourage compliance.

Compliance to the point of bankruptcy? Could only be here, just more dung from mindless politico talking heads who seem determined to destroy the country from within? Meanwhile the world's volcanoes are still giving it large?

The only thing that stopped a successful Brexit were the woefully inadequate politicians and civil servants here, determined to suck the teat dry till pension time.

Total lack of common sense an cojones,

 

 

Edited July 26 by old man

[Raja Clavata]

8 hours ago, Zoli 12 guage said:

errrrrrr,mini was made by Austin which was then part of British Leyland which went mammaries up because of the reasons I gave and was only bought by the Germans because of it's niche market.

I wasn't born when British Leyland and BHM merged but it's generally accepted that was the trigger for their demise, so I'd add bickering management and rampant trade unions to the reasons you gave.

8 hours ago, Zoli 12 guage said:

AND the reasons i never mentioned the others, including McLaren/Aston Martin/Lotus/caterham/Morgan etc is because they are not a "volume" manufacturer.

OK, so we agree MINI is a volume manufacturer (175,000 units per year) and should be included in the list.

Rolls Royce is not a volume manufacturer.

All current UK Auto OEMs are pretty much niche. Not clear what volume has to do with it, the first two above are iconic global brands. I don't know how'd you'd classify volume but I'd suggest the threshold where a global Tier 1 will design and build custom components for the OEM rather than them having to source legacy / carry-over components.

8 hours ago, Zoli 12 guage said:

as far shutting down "UK manufacturing plants" goes in favour of Europe,where were the European plants for Austin/Morris/Triumph/Rover/MG/Hillman etc,etc,etc.

 A different era and different set of OEMs but it was a significant contributing factor to Ford Dagenham, Halewood, Southampton etc.

8 hours ago, Zoli 12 guage said:

as far as quality issues goes,Range Rover is still one of the worst offenders but having had one for all of 12 months with 2 gear boxes and various electrical faults done under warranty and leaving me stranded 3 times because it either wouldn't start or just stopped,i'd never buy another.

it doesn't,to this day,stop customers paying over 100 grand for one still,so what's your point.

it's called customer loyalty and Ferrari/Lamborghini etc still have the same issues but they still sell.

My point is that quality alone was not their downfall.

I'd add Aston Martin to the list of quality issues, the DB12 being the latest example. BTW the average purchase price of new Aston Martin vehicles in 2023 went north of £200k.

5 hours ago, Gordon R said:

Zoli 12 guage - you are in danger of letting facts cloud the issue. Whilst you are correct, some will never accept that. 🙂

 

Having a driving licence does not an Automotive Industry expert make. Have you not been asked to hand yours back yet.

Feel free to come back with counter-facts to the above post, go on I dare you to actually contribute something to the discussion, assuming it doesn't take you too far out of your comfort zone of course.

Edited July 26 by Raja Clavata
global

[oowee]

2 hours ago, old man said:

 

The only thing that stopped a successful Brexit were the woefully inadequate politicians and civil servants here, determined to suck the teat dry till pension time.

There can only be one possible success and that is the act of leaving for those that wanted it. Even for that to be a success you have to discount the cost and accept the self harm. The act of leaving can only ever result in increased costs, reduced trade, restricted movement, reduced opportunity, the flight of capital, brain drain, loss of research, increased immigration, regardless of the deal made. It was clear from the start. Now seven years later there is not a single benefit. Those that still support it blame the deal just as they blamed the EU. The fault lies simply with the misguided choice. 

[old man]

43 minutes ago, oowee said:

There can only be one possible success and that is the act of leaving for those that wanted it. Even for that to be a success you have to discount the cost and accept the self harm. The act of leaving can only ever result in increased costs, reduced trade, restricted movement, reduced opportunity, the flight of capital, brain drain, loss of research, increased immigration, regardless of the deal made. It was clear from the start. Now seven years later there is not a single benefit. Those that still support it blame the deal just as they blamed the EU. The fault lies simply with the misguided choice. 

Afraid we have to disagree on that one.

When we fielded our disinterested weak team it was sadly all over by design to my mind. 

[Zoli 12 guage]

1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said:

I wasn't born when British Leyland and BHM merged but it's generally accepted that was the trigger for their demise, so I'd add bickering management and rampant trade unions to the reasons you gave.

OK, so we agree MINI is a volume manufacturer (175,000 units per year) and should be included in the list.

Rolls Royce is not a volume manufacturer.

All current UK Auto OEMs are pretty much niche. Not clear what volume has to do with it, the first two above are iconic global brands. I don't know how'd you'd classify volume but I'd suggest the threshold where a global Tier 1 will design and build custom components for the OEM rather than them having to source legacy / carry-over components.

 A different era and different set of OEMs but it was a significant contributing factor to Ford Dagenham, Halewood, Southampton etc.

My point is that quality alone was not their downfall.

I'd add Aston Martin to the list of quality issues, the DB12 being the latest example. BTW the average purchase price of new Aston Martin vehicles in 2023 went north of £200k.

Having a driving licence does not an Automotive Industry expert make. Have you not been asked to hand yours back yet.

Feel free to come back with counter-facts to the above post, go on I dare you to actually contribute something to the discussion, assuming it doesn't take you too far out of your comfort zone of course.

after typing out and then deleting what i really wanted to say (twice) as it would involve a ban.

you ain't dragging me into this delusion you're peddling,so jog on 👍

[Raja Clavata]

12 minutes ago, Zoli 12 guage said:

after typing out and then deleting what i really wanted to say (twice) as it would involve a ban.

you ain't dragging me into this delusion you're peddling,so jog on 👍

I genuinely don’t know how anything I wrote in reply to your post could be taken offensively. But you’ve partially quoted me in relation to a response I made to another poster. To clarify, my reply to you ended at £200k.

If you’re still bent out of shape, I’m sorry about that.

Regarding the notion of me peddling delusion, genuinely lost, my reply to you was in good faith and I took time in my response, showing you respect, replying to each section of your prior post.

That said if you can’t formulate an acceptable reply after two attempts, then fair enough. 

[Mungler]

When I was a younger man and between cars in about 1998, I bought a second hand W reg Honda matic (what was that 1979?) for a couple of hundred quid.

That car came with metallic paint, auto box, electric windows, adjustable headlights, central locking and I think even cruise control. And everything worked.

That car was amazing and at that time with a spec you would only find in a Roller.

And what was the British car industry churning out at that time, when it wasn’t too busy being on strike? Austin allegro, princess, Morris marina / ital, maxi and then mastro, metro and montego. Dear Lord, the most hateful, unattractive and unreliable cars known to mankind.

Our car industry absolutely 100% deserved to fail and was beyond rescue. 

I’m also reminded I learnt to drive in a Datsun Sunny with 250,000 miles on the clock and nothing wrong with it at all. I don’t think the GB car industry made a car that would or could last beyond 100,000 miles at that time. 

 

[old man]

9 hours ago, Mungler said:

When I was a younger man and between cars in about 1998, I bought a second hand W reg Honda matic (what was that 1979?) for a couple of hundred quid.

That car came with metallic paint, auto box, electric windows, adjustable headlights, central locking and I think even cruise control. And everything worked.

That car was amazing and at that time with a spec you would only find in a Roller.

And what was the British car industry churning out at that time, when it wasn’t too busy being on strike? Austin allegro, princess, Morris marina / ital, maxi and then mastro, metro and montego. Dear Lord, the most hateful, unattractive and unreliable cars known to mankind.

Our car industry absolutely 100% deserved to fail and was beyond rescue. 

I’m also reminded I learnt to drive in a Datsun Sunny with 250,000 miles on the clock and nothing wrong with it at all. I don’t think the GB car industry made a car that would or could last beyond 100,000 miles at that time. 

 

Mm, I too had the misfortune to own a few of those British gems, absolute carp.

Number 1 first new car, 3 replacement gearboxes, the last one seizing up as the garage tried to give it me back.

Number 2 a new replacement for 1, a dinner sized lump of paint fell off due to hidden rust.

Number 3  second hand Princess that had the gearbox out 3 times as the only way of tightening the big nut that kept coming loose.

All absolute carp, near bankruptcy for a young family with 2 children. 

Red Robbo specials no doubt?

[JohnfromUK]

I must have been quite lucky as I had;

• A Mini 1976 model - largely trouble free.
• A Dolomite Sprint 1975 model - largely trouble free
• A Rover 2600 1981 model - largely trouble free
• A Daimler Double Six, 1979 model - largely trouble free, but some rust later in it's life (I owned it for a number of years)

The least reliable cars I had were Ford (Fiesta XR2 - multiple issues), Fiat (X1/9 - gearbox bearings) and Mercedes (280 GEL - auto gearbox and alternator)

Edited July 27 by JohnfromUK

[janner]

On 25/07/2024 at 17:34, Mungler said:

You are either thick, obtuse or a lot of both.

The clues are in the very acts of Parliament eg The Illegal Migration Act 2023.

Love the straight reach for the race card too. Brilliant.

.

 

 

You are the thick one,

That unworkable act is dead in the water, it would have meant the u.k ignoring treaties we have signed up to such as  the international bill of human rights etc and thus becoming a pariah state,

it's thankfully been replaced now that we have a proper government in place dealing with refugees and asylum seekers within the law, both domestic and international,   The previous bunch of racist cretins within the tory party that tried to make a human being 'illegal' to pander to the racist vote knew full well that they would have to leave all international  agreements, agreed to by post ww2 Great British governments that ensured that no human being could ever be again classed/called  'illegal' on the whim of a murderous regime,

 the ridiculous braverman bill tried to stop the processing of refugees and asylum seekers that had come here without permission due to the idiocy of saying they had broken the obscene law by not having the correct permissions or documents, ie to take part in illegal immigration,

All it did was to stop claims from being processed once the refugee or asylum seeker had exercised their basic and fundamental human right to claim asylum in a safe country of their choosing, in our case, the u.k,

the refusal of the United Kingdoms idiotic government to act within the law and the treaties their predessesors signed up to caused a huge backlog of rightful claims and the tories knew full well that they would never be able to keep their stupid 'soundbite' act and have the United Kingdom at the top table when taking part in international affairs,

Its obvious why sunak called an election to take place just days before the  keystone of his premiership, the illegal deportations to africa would have been stopped and he and others in his government knew this full well,

The game was up.

A human being cannot be 'illegal', 

That is a fundamental human right accepted by all reasonable human beings, those that try to justify  turning refugees and asylum seekers into criminals are using the term 'illegals' to disguise clear and obvious racism,

 

Edited July 27 by janner

[welsh1]

"puts on a false French accent"

Listen very carefully I will say this only once.

"French accent ends"

please calm it down, the language being used  to describe others on the forum and the general tone of some posts is bordering on warnings and bans to various members, please debate but do it with politeness.

 

[shaun4860]

Wot he said ⬆️

[old man]

44 minutes ago, janner said:

 

You are the thick one,

That unworkable act is dead in the water, it would have meant the u.k ignoring treaties we have signed up to such as  the international bill of human rights etc and thus becoming a pariah state,

it's thankfully been replaced now that we have a proper government in place dealing with refugees and asylum seekers within the law, both domestic and international,   The previous bunch of racist cretins within the tory party that tried to make a human being 'illegal' to pander to the racist vote knew full well that they would have to leave all international  agreements, agreed to by post ww2 Great British governments that ensured that no human being could ever be again classed/called  'illegal' on the whim of a murderous regime,

 the ridiculous braverman bill tried to stop the processing of refugees and asylum seekers that had come here without permission due to the idiocy of saying they had broken the obscene law by not having the correct permissions or documents, ie to take part in illegal immigration,

All it did was to stop claims from being processed once the refugee or asylum seeker had exercised their basic and fundamental human right to claim asylum in a safe country of their choosing, in our case, the u.k,

the refusal of the United Kingdoms idiotic government to act within the law and the treaties their predessesors signed up to caused a huge backlog of rightful claims and the tories knew full well that they would never be able to keep their stupid 'soundbite' act and have the United Kingdom at the top table when taking part in international affairs,

Its obvious why sunak called an election to take place just days before the  keystone of his premiership, the illegal deportations to africa would have been stopped and he and others in his government knew this full well,

The game was up.

A human being cannot be 'illegal', 

That is a fundamental human right accepted by all reasonable human beings, those that try to justify  turning refugees and asylum seekers into criminals are using the term 'illegals' to disguise clear and obvious racism,

 

Thank goodness I is just an uneducated old ***. 🙃

[Weihrauch17]

12 hours ago, Mungler said:

When I was a younger man and between cars in about 1998, I bought a second hand W reg Honda matic (what was that 1979?) for a couple of hundred quid.

That car came with metallic paint, auto box, electric windows, adjustable headlights, central locking and I think even cruise control. And everything worked.

That car was amazing and at that time with a spec you would only find in a Roller.

And what was the British car industry churning out at that time, when it wasn’t too busy being on strike? Austin allegro, princess, Morris marina / ital, maxi and then mastro, metro and montego. Dear Lord, the most hateful, unattractive and unreliable cars known to mankind.

Our car industry absolutely 100% deserved to fail and was beyond rescue. 

I’m also reminded I learnt to drive in a Datsun Sunny with 250,000 miles on the clock and nothing wrong with it at all. I don’t think the GB car industry made a car that would or could last beyond 100,000 miles at that time. 

 

My first car was an Allegro, it's gearbox fell out going round a roundabout! 🤣 

[Mungler]

1 hour ago, janner said:

 

You are the thick one,

That unworkable act is dead in the water, it would have meant the u.k ignoring treaties we have signed up to such as  the international bill of human rights etc and thus becoming a pariah state,

it's thankfully been replaced now that we have a proper government in place dealing with refugees and asylum seekers within the law, both domestic and international,   The previous bunch of racist cretins within the tory party that tried to make a human being 'illegal' to pander to the racist vote knew full well that they would have to leave all international  agreements, agreed to by post ww2 Great British governments that ensured that no human being could ever be again classed/called  'illegal' on the whim of a murderous regime,

 the ridiculous braverman bill tried to stop the processing of refugees and asylum seekers that had come here without permission due to the idiocy of saying they had broken the obscene law by not having the correct permissions or documents, ie to take part in illegal immigration,

All it did was to stop claims from being processed once the refugee or asylum seeker had exercised their basic and fundamental human right to claim asylum in a safe country of their choosing, in our case, the u.k,

the refusal of the United Kingdoms idiotic government to act within the law and the treaties their predessesors signed up to caused a huge backlog of rightful claims and the tories knew full well that they would never be able to keep their stupid 'soundbite' act and have the United Kingdom at the top table when taking part in international affairs,

Its obvious why sunak called an election to take place just days before the  keystone of his premiership, the illegal deportations to africa would have been stopped and he and others in his government knew this full well,

The game was up.

A human being cannot be 'illegal', 

That is a fundamental human right accepted by all reasonable human beings, those that try to justify  turning refugees and asylum seekers into criminals are using the term 'illegals' to disguise clear and obvious racism,

 

Repetition does not make your bad points any better.

Illegal is defined as ‘contrary to or forbidden by law, especially criminal law’.

Someone’s presence, residence or occupation anywhere can be illegal if it is contrary to the law / unlawful.

These are not difficult concepts. 

Wishing for controlled immigration system does not make anyone racist. We cannot rehouse or rehome the whole of the rest of the world and so we need a system and controls.

As for asylum I happen to subscribe to the view that safest nearest destination / country makes sense and discourages onward economic migration which is what we have. 

Feel free to disagree and throw the racist card around - no one cares least of all me.

The good news is the pendulum is swinging back and the simple economics of scarcity of resource is dawning on more and more people. The difficulty is the mainstream parties have ignored concerns about immigration (a life long Labour supporter having her views famously dismissed as racist by Gordon Brown as far back as 2010) and have seen them as irrelevant or low status views that were in conflict with the march towards globalisation. Following on, only fringe and populist parties listened to what the people were increasingly saying and concerned about and I expect that we are now at a cross roads where even Labour appreciates that the spotlight is on them to succeed and deliver where the conservatives failed.

[johnphilip]

1 hour ago, janner said:

 

You are the thick one,

That unworkable act is dead in the water, it would have meant the u.k ignoring treaties we have signed up to such as  the international bill of human rights etc and thus becoming a pariah state,

it's thankfully been replaced now that we have a proper government in place dealing with refugees and asylum seekers within the law, both domestic and international,   The previous bunch of racist cretins within the tory party that tried to make a human being 'illegal' to pander to the racist vote knew full well that they would have to leave all international  agreements, agreed to by post ww2 Great British governments that ensured that no human being could ever be again classed/called  'illegal' on the whim of a murderous regime,

 the ridiculous braverman bill tried to stop the processing of refugees and asylum seekers that had come here without permission due to the idiocy of saying they had broken the obscene law by not having the correct permissions or documents, ie to take part in illegal immigration,

All it did was to stop claims from being processed once the refugee or asylum seeker had exercised their basic and fundamental human right to claim asylum in a safe country of their choosing, in our case, the u.k,

the refusal of the United Kingdoms idiotic government to act within the law and the treaties their predessesors signed up to caused a huge backlog of rightful claims and the tories knew full well that they would never be able to keep their stupid 'soundbite' act and have the United Kingdom at the top table when taking part in international affairs,

Its obvious why sunak called an election to take place just days before the  keystone of his premiership, the illegal deportations to africa would have been stopped and he and others in his government knew this full well,

The game was up.

A human being cannot be 'illegal', 

That is a fundamental human right accepted by all reasonable human beings, those that try to justify  turning refugees and asylum seekers into criminals are using the term 'illegals' to disguise clear and obvious racism,

 

Is a passport or Visa a legal document,  needed to enter a foreign county , as you can not legaly enter that country without one . 

So by throwing away your passport / visa , you are attempting to enter a country illegaly , as you have no legal mean of ID . 

[Mungler]

2 minutes ago, johnphilip said:

Is a passport or Visa a legal document,  needed to enter a foreign county , as you can not legaly enter that country without one . 

So by throwing away your passport / visa , you are attempting to enter a country illegaly , as you have no legal mean of ID . 

Passports and visas are no doubt racist instruments 😆😆🙄