Notting hill carnival

[Mungler]

2 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Is that not factually wrong then ?

Don’t let that get in the way of things 😆

Ok, let’s pick at the scab of mandatory ID cards and identification as are prevalent on the continent. Yes or No, and if No, what if the EU made them mandatory (as it will in due course)?

 

[Mice!]

11 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

example of such could be, you see a man outside your house at 3 am, dark clothing, looking round your car, you call the cops, and if they actually turn up, they will likely ask the person to accou

Stop it, there's zero chance of the police turning up, unless it's a coppers house 😅😅

[12gauge82]

6 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Is that not factually wrong then ?

In layman's terms no, the police need something that constitutes more than "I don't like the look of him" to search someone. 

3 minutes ago, Mungler said:

Don’t let that get in the way of things 😆

Ok, let’s pick at the scab of mandatory ID cards and identification as are prevalent on the continent. Yes or No, and if No, what if the EU made them mandatory (as it will in due course)?

 

Definitely don't want them and see no need for them at the moment. 

[Mice!]

I do find the idea of refusing to give ID an odd one, now I've just been out shooting (imagine that) now the only thing on my person with my name on it was a credit card, would that be enough? I can't actually remember the last time I was stopped in my car which would be the only time I can think I've been asked a question by the police, and even then I don't carry my DL.

I find it odd because on random threads most who have a SGC on here won't do anything that could jeopardise it, so I can't imagine them saying no to a question from the police.

[12gauge82]

1 minute ago, Mice! said:

I do find the idea of refusing to give ID an odd one, now I've just been out shooting (imagine that) now the only thing on my person with my name on it was a credit card, would that be enough? I can't actually remember the last time I was stopped in my car which would be the only time I can think I've been asked a question by the police, and even then I don't carry my DL.

I find it odd because on random threads most who have a SGC on here won't do anything that could jeopardise it, so I can't imagine them saying no to a question from the police.

Don't quote me but I think it's a requirement to carry your FA/SG license when out shooting. 

As for not showing ID, for me it's about freedom and like I said earlier, power corrupts. 

 

[Mice!]

2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

with no other solutions offered, we just have to accept that stabbings will continue in London on a daily basis, predominantly among young black males, and we can look forward to next year's Notting Hill StabFest 25.

Unfortunately it's not just London anymore,  I did used to just ignore it when it came up on the news 'stabbing in London' shock horror, buts it's all over now, and I doubt most will even make the news.

That for me is why something serious needs to happen,  worrying about upsetting a particular group who just happen to be the most likely to be carrying knives, or getting stabbed in an area shouldn't be an issue,  the police won't upset anyone who's searched, found to be carrying nothing illegal and told to have a good day.

4 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

Don't quote me but I think it's a requirement to carry your FA/SG license when out shooting. 

I was out with an Airgun 👍

[TIGHTCHOKE]

12 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

Don't quote me but I think it's a requirement to carry your FA/SG license when out shooting. 

As for not showing ID, for me it's about freedom and like I said earlier, power corrupts. 

It CERTAINLY isn't.

[old man]

5 hours ago, Mungler said:

You’ve never been through an airport then where everyone is searched and goes through various checks and scanners (and has to have mandatory state ID in the form of a passport)?

Ever been on a cruise ship?

What about into a governent building like a Court or Council offices?

Ever been to a concert or a nightclub?

Yep done all of that and no wish to repeat any, many absolutely useless.

None of those are within my definition of in the street.

You want that, crack on without me bud.

[old man]

20 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

Don't quote me but I think it's a requirement to carry your FA/SG license when out shooting. 

As for not showing ID, for me it's about freedom and like I said earlier, power corrupts. 

 

The situation I have been told is the fact that if you can't produce the  relevant licence and the peeler is having a bad day he can confiscate said gun?

That could mean all and sundry down the station having a look and chuck?

20 minutes ago, Mice! said:

Unfortunately it's not just London anymore,  I did used to just ignore it when it came up on the news 'stabbing in London' shock horror, buts it's all over now, and I doubt most will even make the news.

That for me is why something serious needs to happen,  worrying about upsetting a particular group who just happen to be the most likely to be carrying knives, or getting stabbed in an area shouldn't be an issue,  the police won't upset anyone who's searched, found to be carrying nothing illegal and told to have a good day.

I was out with an Airgun 👍

Now classed as a firearm in some circumstances?

[London Best]

21 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

It CERTAINLY isn't.

Seconded, definitely NOT.

[Raja Clavata]

3 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Probably because you know the argument isn't valid.

Can you remind me what my argument was again?

3 hours ago, Rewulf said:

The police already have powers to stop and search, they don't really need a reason, and if challenged, they can make one up.

Targeted searches are the issue here, but they already do that too, searching someone's 80 year old granny is highly unlikely to produce a 2 ft long machete or a large bag of crack.

Agreed, no issues with any of that.

3 hours ago, Rewulf said:

I think the main problem you have is that the target search criteria you imagine is young black men?

Nah, my main problem was with Mungler:

• Denying the complexities of the underlying causes and passing them off as excuses
• Accusing anyone not agreeing with him of being wet, left, hand wringer, various other...
• Accusing anyone not agreeing with him, who he also considers a Remainer, as being a deluded individual with flawed views of themself as having superior knowledge
• Exhibiting the exact same air of superiority in his postings
• Being a white middle class middle aged professional thinking (knowing for a fact) they've got all the answers 
• Seemingly being OK with two tier policing on knife crime but not on squashing recent civil unrest
• Selective sampling of examples to reinforce his point
• Selective/out of context/misquoting which just reinforces the banality of his arguments
• Referring to the royal (PW) we 
• Stating that "black was non-white the last time I checked" - that was the one that clinched it for me. 

There's probably more but I'm getting bored again already 😛 

My primary argument relevant to the topic is that the issue needs to be tackled holistically with stop and search as a part of a wider approach covering the underlying causes and proportional consequences of being found in breach of the rules. Confiscating weapons with no punishment is next to pointless in my opinion.

In the wider context I do also share some of 12gauge82's concerns.

Regarding ID cards, I'm 100% in favour of them. I'm also highly biased towards taking the majority of cash out of the economy too as I think it would collapse certain elements of crime, result in fairer taxation whilst boosting treasury funds and also be a great way of addressing our loosely regulated job market which is seen as one of the key attractions to illegal immigrants trying to get to the UK. 

[12gauge82]

4 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Can you remind me what my argument was again?

Agreed, no issues with any of that.

Nah, my main problem was with Mungler:

• Denying the complexities of the underlying causes and passing them off as excuses
• Accusing anyone not agreeing with him of being wet, left, hand wringer, various other...
• Accusing anyone not agreeing with him, who he also considers a Remainer, as being a deluded individual with flawed views of themself as having superior knowledge
• Exhibiting the exact same air of superiority in his postings
• Being a white middle class middle aged professional thinking (knowing for a fact) they've got all the answers 
• Seemingly being OK with two tier policing on knife crime but not on squashing recent civil unrest
• Selective sampling of examples to reinforce his point
• Selective/out of context/misquoting which just reinforces the banality of his arguments
• Referring to the royal (PW) we 
• Stating that "black was non-white the last time I checked" - that was the one that clinched it for me. 

There's probably more but I'm getting bored again already 😛 

My primary argument relevant to the topic is that the issue needs to be tackled holistically with stop and search as a part of a wider approach covering the underlying causes and proportional consequences of being found in breach of the rules. Confiscating weapons with no punishment is next to pointless in my opinion.

In the wider context I do also share some of 12gauge82's concerns.

Regarding ID cards, I'm 100% in favour of them. I'm also highly biased towards taking the majority of cash out of the economy too as I think it would collapse certain elements of crime, result in fairer taxation whilst boosting treasury funds and also be a great way of addressing our loosely regulated job market which is seen as one of the key attractions to illegal immigrants trying to get to the UK. 

Good post and an interesting perspective on a cashless society. 

47 minutes ago, old man said:

The situation I have been told is the fact that if you can't produce the  relevant licence and the peeler is having a bad day he can confiscate said gun?

That could mean all and sundry down the station having a look and chuck?

Now classed as a firearm in some circumstances?

Thanks for that, I stand corrected, I've just looked and what you say is spot on. 

[Rewulf]

13 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Nah, my main problem was with Mungler:

Yes you do seem to have a personality clash going on there 

The thing is there are some things we can agree on, and others, well, not... But its pointless letting it get personal.

17 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Denying the complexities of the underlying causes and passing them off as excuses

When someone makes the decision to stab an individual, there is always the risk that it can be fatal, sometimes that fatality can be intentional, but THEY made the decision to carry that weapon and use it, I dont really care how complex the underlying cause was, I dont care how poor they are, or they never knew their father, they might come from a tough estate, but nobody MADE them do it, they made a conscious decision to do it.

So yes, Ill deny the excuse, I grew up on a tough estate, I ran with gangs, but I never carried a knife, and I never stabbed anyone.

[12gauge82]

2 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Yes you do seem to have a personality clash going on there 

The thing is there are some things we can agree on, and others, well, not... But its pointless letting it get personal.

When someone makes the decision to stab an individual, there is always the risk that it can be fatal, sometimes that fatality can be intentional, but THEY made the decision to carry that weapon and use it, I dont really care how complex the underlying cause was, I dont care how poor they are, or they never knew their father, they might come from a tough estate, but nobody MADE them do it, they made a conscious decision to do it.

So yes, Ill deny the excuse, I grew up on a tough estate, I ran with gangs, but I never carried a knife, and I never stabbed anyone.

I do, because without understanding what led to someone doing something, regardless of how abhorrent it is, you'll never stop it. 

[Rewulf]

Just now, 12gauge82 said:

I do, because without understanding what led to someone doing something, regardless of how abhorrent it is, you'll never stop it. 

Have you ever thought that some people do things because they want to ?
Sometimes its just their nature, or the urge for dominance, sometimes theyre just messed up in the head.

The hand wringing Mungler speaks of is a real thing, they try to explain evil behaviour with excuses about poverty, housing or racism, but not all murderers, rapists or thieves come from this environment.
SJWs love to champion the cause of the downtrodden, explain that their circumstances CAUSED them to do abhorrent things, yet have no answers when someone from a good background does the same.
Its like not having the material things we mostly take for granted, removes their free will to NOT commit atrocious crimes.
I find it rather pathetic to be honest, but when you live in a culture that tells you its cool to be a bad person, to have no respect for anyone....

J Hus born to Gambian parents in London was, and still is the darling of BBC radio one, his err 'music' is filled with messages of violence and sexual mistreatment of women, he was arrested some 5 times for carrying a knife before being jailed, heres a small snippet of his rap sheet.

Personal life

[edit]

He is a supporter of Arsenal F.C.^[37]

Legal issues

[edit]

In 2011, J Hus was arrested outside Westfield following a "mass attack" on four people, which ended in one of them being stabbed. He had already received a referral order that year after being caught with a knife in public.^[38]

In 2014 and 2015, he was arrested and served stints in His Majesty's Feltham Prison.^[19] He accrued six convictions for ten offences between 2011 and 2016, including for carrying a knife and for violent disorder. He has also been given an ASBO.^[39]

In September 2015 the musician was admitted to hospital after being stabbed five times in London.^[40] Whilst in hospital, he was criticised for posting on Instagram a photo of him making a gang sign from his hospital bed with the message "5 stab wounds could never stop me #AntiCh #****DaOvaSide".^[41][42] The attack left him with mild PTSD, for which at the time of his 2018 imprisonment he was seeing a therapist.^[39]

In June 2018, he was arrested in Stratford and charged with carrying a knife in public.^[11] He was subsequently dropped from the performance line-ups of the TRNSMT and Wireless festivals.^[43] Jallow appeared at Thames Magistrates' Court on 22 June and was released on bail.^[44] On 20 July, he pleaded not guilty,^[45] but changed his plea in October and in December was sentenced to eight months in jail.^[39] When asked why he had been carrying a six-inch (150 mm) blade, J Hus said: "You know, it's Westfield."^[38]

He was eventually released on 5 April 2019 and was welcomed back by Drake, joining him on stage at the O2 Arena during Drake's UK Assassination Vacation Tour.

[Penelope]

2 hours ago, Mice! said:

Stop it, there's zero chance of the police turning up, unless it's a coppers house 😅😅

Is the correct answer.

1 hour ago, Mice! said:

Unfortunately it's not just London anymore,  I did used to just ignore it when it came up on the news 'stabbing in London' shock horror, buts it's all over now, and I doubt most will even make the news.

That for me is why something serious needs to happen,  worrying about upsetting a particular group who just happen to be the most likely to be carrying knives, or getting stabbed in an area shouldn't be an issue,  the police won't upset anyone who's searched, found to be carrying nothing illegal and told to have a good day.

I was out with an Airgun 👍

Cleveland is supposedly the most dangerous area in the UK.

 

[Penelope]

15 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Have you ever thought that some people do things because they want to ?
Sometimes its just their nature, or the urge for dominance, sometimes theyre just messed up in the head.

The hand wringing Mungler speaks of is a real thing, they try to explain evil behaviour with excuses about poverty, housing or racism, but not all murderers, rapists or thieves come from this environment.
SJWs love to champion the cause of the downtrodden, explain that their circumstances CAUSED them to do abhorrent things, yet have no answers when someone from a good background does the same.
Its like not having the material things we mostly take for granted, removes their free will to NOT commit atrocious crimes.
I find it rather pathetic to be honest, but when you live in a culture that tells you its cool to be a bad person, to have no respect for anyone....

J Hus born to Gambian parents in London was, and still is the darling of BBC radio one, his err 'music' is filled with messages of violence and sexual mistreatment of women, he was arrested some 5 times for carrying a knife before being jailed, heres a small snippet of his rap sheet.

Personal life

[edit]

He is a supporter of Arsenal F.C.^[37]

Legal issues

[edit]

In 2011, J Hus was arrested outside Westfield following a "mass attack" on four people, which ended in one of them being stabbed. He had already received a referral order that year after being caught with a knife in public.^[38]

In 2014 and 2015, he was arrested and served stints in His Majesty's Feltham Prison.^[19] He accrued six convictions for ten offences between 2011 and 2016, including for carrying a knife and for violent disorder. He has also been given an ASBO.^[39]

In September 2015 the musician was admitted to hospital after being stabbed five times in London.^[40] Whilst in hospital, he was criticised for posting on Instagram a photo of him making a gang sign from his hospital bed with the message "5 stab wounds could never stop me #AntiCh #****DaOvaSide".^[41][42] The attack left him with mild PTSD, for which at the time of his 2018 imprisonment he was seeing a therapist.^[39]

In June 2018, he was arrested in Stratford and charged with carrying a knife in public.^[11] He was subsequently dropped from the performance line-ups of the TRNSMT and Wireless festivals.^[43] Jallow appeared at Thames Magistrates' Court on 22 June and was released on bail.^[44] On 20 July, he pleaded not guilty,^[45] but changed his plea in October and in December was sentenced to eight months in jail.^[39] When asked why he had been carrying a six-inch (150 mm) blade, J Hus said: "You know, it's Westfield."^[38]

He was eventually released on 5 April 2019 and was welcomed back by Drake, joining him on stage at the O2 Arena during Drake's UK Assassination Vacation Tour.

This type of individual, then?

 

Edited September 4 by Penelope

[Rewulf]

2 minutes ago, Penelope said:

This type of indivual, then?

Must have had a bad childhood, so obviously not their fault 

Nice to see a decent sentence though.

 

[12gauge82]

17 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Have you ever thought that some people do things because they want to ?
Sometimes its just their nature, or the urge for dominance, sometimes theyre just messed up in the head.

The hand wringing Mungler speaks of is a real thing, they try to explain evil behaviour with excuses about poverty, housing or racism, but not all murderers, rapists or thieves come from this environment.
SJWs love to champion the cause of the downtrodden, explain that their circumstances CAUSED them to do abhorrent things, yet have no answers when someone from a good background does the same.
Its like not having the material things we mostly take for granted, removes their free will to NOT commit atrocious crimes.
I find it rather pathetic to be honest, but when you live in a culture that tells you its cool to be a bad person, to have no respect for anyone....

J Hus born to Gambian parents in London was, and still is the darling of BBC radio one, his err 'music' is filled with messages of violence and sexual mistreatment of women, he was arrested some 5 times for carrying a knife before being jailed, heres a small snippet of his rap sheet.

Personal life

[edit]

He is a supporter of Arsenal F.C.^[37]

Legal issues

[edit]

In 2011, J Hus was arrested outside Westfield following a "mass attack" on four people, which ended in one of them being stabbed. He had already received a referral order that year after being caught with a knife in public.^[38]

In 2014 and 2015, he was arrested and served stints in His Majesty's Feltham Prison.^[19] He accrued six convictions for ten offences between 2011 and 2016, including for carrying a knife and for violent disorder. He has also been given an ASBO.^[39]

In September 2015 the musician was admitted to hospital after being stabbed five times in London.^[40] Whilst in hospital, he was criticised for posting on Instagram a photo of him making a gang sign from his hospital bed with the message "5 stab wounds could never stop me #AntiCh #****DaOvaSide".^[41][42] The attack left him with mild PTSD, for which at the time of his 2018 imprisonment he was seeing a therapist.^[39]

In June 2018, he was arrested in Stratford and charged with carrying a knife in public.^[11] He was subsequently dropped from the performance line-ups of the TRNSMT and Wireless festivals.^[43] Jallow appeared at Thames Magistrates' Court on 22 June and was released on bail.^[44] On 20 July, he pleaded not guilty,^[45] but changed his plea in October and in December was sentenced to eight months in jail.^[39] When asked why he had been carrying a six-inch (150 mm) blade, J Hus said: "You know, it's Westfield."^[38]

He was eventually released on 5 April 2019 and was welcomed back by Drake, joining him on stage at the O2 Arena during Drake's UK Assassination Vacation Tour.

I agree sometimes, some people do. But explain why the black community is over represented in knife crime? There must be a driving factor. 

[Penelope]

6 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

I agree sometimes, some people do. But explain why the black community is over represented in knife crime? There must be a driving factor. 

The choice to involve themselves in black street culture; it's cool to be a 'Road Man'!

Edited September 4 by Penelope

[12gauge82]

14 minutes ago, Penelope said:

The choice to involve themselves in black street culture; it's cool to be a 'Road Man'!

Really! that's your interpretation of the whole reason of why, and how do you know that? 

[Mungler]

1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said:

 

• Denying the complexities of the underlying causes and passing them off as excuses.

We don’t need to understand Paedophiles to make being a Paedophile a criminal offence and policing it ‘simply’ as such. 

• Accusing anyone not agreeing with him of being wet, left, hand wringer, various other...

Demonstrably and applying Trevor Philips there is a recognised ‘wet’ approach to this which is getting everyone nowhere while the bodies pile up. I happen to share Trevor Philip’s view and if that makes me dry rather than wet, then Im happy weir that. 

• Accusing anyone not agreeing with him, who he also considers a Remainer, as being a deluded individual with flawed views of themself as having superior knowledge

Ah I voted remain. But I am not swayed by a blind love of all things EU. That makes me more balanced than most.

• Exhibiting the exact same air of superiority in his postings

The issues are pretty clear to me. I’m happy to venture a solution. None the wets can get close to a solution nor even venture one. 

• Being a white middle class middle aged professional thinking (knowing for a fact) they've got all the answers 

I have more answers than most. What is your answer to the knife crime epidemic. My solution (shared with Trevor Philips) is set out in this thread. Go on, give us an answer that doesn’t include ‘complex’ or ‘cultural’ and which isn’t an answer or any movement beyond what we have right now and which isn’t working.

• Seemingly being OK with two tier policing on knife crime but not on squashing recent civil unrest

Nope. The sentencing handed out for the housewives on Facebook (aka civil unrest) are demonstrably ridiculous and disproportionate. That’s 2 tier right there.

• Selective sampling of examples to reinforce his point

An example is an example, selective or otherwise.

• Selective/out of context/misquoting which just reinforces the banality of his arguments

Not really. It’s called pressing a point which remains unanswered / ducked 

• Referring to the royal (PW) we 

And? It’s a form of written style. That’s what we have here.

• Stating that "black was non-white the last time I checked" - that was the one that clinched it for me. 

Black is non white. Non white includes black. I didn’t think that was complicated.

Love the pro-ID cards. Knew you would be -  with the EU leading the way.

12 Gauge silent - he less so? Definite police state stuff.  

[Mice!]

49 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

I agree sometimes, some people do. But explain why the black community is over represented in knife crime? There must be a driving factor. 

Maybe because they know they'll not be stopped and searched?

Maybe because they just don't care about pulling a knife, we'll all have read that some carry because others carry so it's about self defence, but then if trouble starts someone is going to pull that knife!

I wonder what the average sentence is with knife crime, probably nothing for carrying, you'd then expect something for using the knife, with a scale of time v severity,  but if the sentence isn't any different to getting caught for say burglary where's the deterrent??

Is the black community over represented in knife crime? Not if there committing the crimes.

 

[johnphilip]

57 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

I agree sometimes, some people do. But explain why the black community is over represented in knife crime? There must be a driving factor. 

It's not just black community that carry knives . Some Asian  community do aswell . We used to in medieval times  but we moved on . Became more civil. The countries were there ancestors came from would have lived by the sword.  Perhaps it just the way they are and feel they still have a need to carry them " live by the sword  die by it"

 

 

[12gauge82]

Interesting theories guys, it's almost like it's a highly complex subject with multiple reasons that if were understood better and tackled could help reduce offending 🤔

1 hour ago, Mungler said:

 

12 Gauge silent - he less so? Definite police state stuff.  

Nope read my earlier reply, I sated I was strongly against ID cards.