The Budget

[JohnfromUK]

The old Soviet USSR and most eastern bloc countries had both state and co-operative collective farms.  I believe many places (China, North Korea, etc) had them and Israel had (and I think still has the kibbutz, but not sure they are state owned?

[old man]

2 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

With the majority they have it will be hard to get them out.  If a vote of confidence was called, not many Labour MPs would vote against the Gov't because they would be very likely to loose their seats in the resulting general election, and that would mean losing their salary, all expenses paid living, subsidised dining and drinking, free central London parking, about 20 weeks paid leave, and all the other perks they get.  The salary itself may be unremarkable, but the overall package is gold plated.

Absolutely correct, not one of them will vote to leave.

36 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

On a good socialist planet - no private farms, but state collective farms. 

It is utter lunacy, but so was most of the budget.  On being self sufficient, that 'bird has flown' long ago.  There are (far) too many people to grow enough food to feed everyone.  We are loosely double the population we were in 1940, but with less farmland, and people have MUCH higher expectations.  If you put the whole UK on a 1940 ration book style diet there would be BIG trouble now.  How would the young survive without MacDonalds?

Any land left after the state farms could be built on to house future voters?

[old man]

17 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

I can just imagine a state collective farm, it'd probably struggle to maintain a tomato plant and would need 15 forms and an army of people just to water it 😂. 

What a mess we're in. 

You only need one with knowledge of how to grow then lots of donkeys to haul the equipment?

[TOPGUN749]

3 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

With the majority they have it will be hard to get them out.  If a vote of confidence was called, not many Labour MPs would vote against the Gov't because they would be very likely to loose their seats in the resulting general election, and that would mean losing their salary, all expenses paid living, subsidised dining and drinking, free central London parking, about 20 weeks paid leave, and all the other perks they get.  The salary itself may be unremarkable, but the overall package is gold plated.

The salary alone is remarkable as I see it £90,000, with all the long breaks it must work out at £100 an hour! Plus expenses and thousands for heating allowance that the pensioners are means tested for!

[Penelope]

16 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Absolutely.
As it stands right now, its an unlikely scenario, but the way things are going, public opinion against labour is going down fast.
If dissatisfaction within the work force and general population gets too bad, or maybe a sliver of integrity still exists in labour MPs, then an early general election could be called.

I think that you are being overly optimistic, sadly.

14 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

I can just imagine a state collective farm, it'd probably struggle to maintain a tomato plant and would need 15 forms and an army of people just to water it 😂. 

What a mess we're in. 

You don't have to imagine, just look back in time to Uncle Joe's great plan.

[Mungler]

Oh yeah here we go. Labour have absolutely got their finger on the pulse of the economy. The problem is it’s flat lining.

 

[Rewulf]

16 minutes ago, Mungler said:

Oh yeah here we go. Labour have absolutely got their finger on the pulse of the economy.

I like the one about nationalising the railways https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14156949/Transport-Secretary-rail-fares-renationalisation-Labour-plan-cost-taxpayer.html

They dont know how much it will cost the taxpayer, and they fully admit rail fares will continue to rise.
Already the highest in Europe, with some of the poorest service, and the white elephant of HS2 pounding the economy for little expected return.

Whats that song labour used to play, 'Things can only get better' ?
Well they wont, at all.

[oowee]

38 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

I like the one about nationalising the railways https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14156949/Transport-Secretary-rail-fares-renationalisation-Labour-plan-cost-taxpayer.html

They dont know how much it will cost the taxpayer, and they fully admit rail fares will continue to rise.
Already the highest in Europe, with some of the poorest service, and the white elephant of HS2 pounding the economy for little expected return.

Whats that song labour used to play, 'Things can only get better' ?
Well they wont, at all.

What would you suggest? 

[Rewulf]

6 minutes ago, oowee said:

What would you suggest? 

Abandon HS2 , and blame it on the tories for starters, its a complete waste of money.

Rethink the benefits of nationalisation, if its not going to be beneficial to passengers, why bother ?

Unfortunately, none of this is going to happen, as there is no one in the government with any competence to rationalise labours policies, let alone carry them out effectively.
Starmer increasingly looks like a rabbit in the headlights of public opinion, watching his inevitable doom approaching, I genuinely fear for his mental health.
Reeves, who is totally out of her depth as chancellor, needs removing, and someone with a modicum of experience in public finance putting in her place, I expect this to happen imminently.

Labour needs to stop making excuses for why they are so inept, blaming everything on the last government will get tired fast, if they didnt have such a massive majority, there would be calls for a vote of no confidence already, 4 months in.
I have never in my adult life, seen a government so completely inexperienced, and ineffective.

[oowee]

8 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Abandon HS2 , and blame it on the tories for starters, its a complete waste of money.

Rethink the benefits of nationalisation, if its not going to be beneficial to passengers, why bother ?

Unfortunately, none of this is going to happen, as there is no one in the government with any competence to rationalise labours policies, let alone carry them out effectively.
Starmer increasingly looks like a rabbit in the headlights of public opinion, watching his inevitable doom approaching, I genuinely fear for his mental health.
Reeves, who is totally out of her depth as chancellor, needs removing, and someone with a modicum of experience in public finance putting in her place, I expect this to happen imminently.

Labour needs to stop making excuses for why they are so inept, blaming everything on the last government will get tired fast, if they didnt have such a massive majority, there would be calls for a vote of no confidence already, 4 months in.
I have never in my adult life, seen a government so completely inexperienced, and ineffective.

Think about it 🤣 Thinking won't solve the problem.

The privatisation (at least the model employed) has clearly not worked. Public ownership did not work previously but as an interim what else is the choice? Endless thinking won't deliver. 

[Rewulf]

22 minutes ago, oowee said:

Think about it 🤣 Thinking won't solve the problem.

I would welcome at least SOME thinking about it, rather than the classic labour/socialistic mantra of 'The first thing were gonna do is nationalise the railways' !
What for ?!
Is that going to make rail travel better ? No.
Is it going to make it cheaper ? No.
How much is it going to cost the taxpayer ? No idea.
But it has to be done, because labour policy has always said we must, despite the fact its going to achieve NOTHING.
Thats the kind of thinking Im talking about.

You see, the thing they always said they would do is 'tax the rich' but they obviously had a little think about that, and realised its a sure fire thing to wreck the economy, so they decided to tax employers instead, and take benefits off pensioners, as they wont be able to cause them the same level of problems.
But they clearly didnt realise that by doing so, they could feasibly tank the economy, and drive unemployment up.
Because they are stupid.

[oowee]

I agree that nationalizing it will not be any better, but for now there is no choice. 

The problem for labour is once they buy it in is they will not be able to let it go. 

[welsh1]

If you want to play a little game there is always Starmer Bingo, a game for all the family.

[Rewulf]

3 minutes ago, oowee said:

I agree that nationalizing it will not be any better, but for now there is no choice. 

Of course theres a choice, DONT nationalise it ! Wait till the licences run out, then put it up for tender.
Maybe someone better will take it on, maybe the present owners will think, we need to be more efficient ?

 

4 minutes ago, oowee said:

The problem for labour is once they buy it in is they will not be able to let it go. 

So, not only is it going to cost money, but theyre buying into a problem for the future ?
Why ?
Whos going to run it, the same bunch who run it now, for a different employer, or are labour somehow going to find better people from their pool of incompetents ?

[oowee]

1 minute ago, Rewulf said:

Maybe someone better will take it on, maybe the present owners will think, we need to be more efficient ?
Whos going to run it, the same bunch who run it now, for a different employer, or are labour somehow going to find better people from their pool of incompetents ?

 

[Mungler]

The idea that the government can do / run anything to any measurable success, target or budget is laughable.

Look at anything they touch PPI, the civil service, the economic black hole that is the NHS, all those local authorities that went skint. 

Indeed, I ask the floor for a list of successes. 

It all has to break spectacularly before we get the will to make the changes we all know must be made. 
 

Edit

And were nationalising British Steel too. And don’t forget about G B Energy.

Wow, who knew we as a country had all that spare cash lying about.

Obviously it’s going to be a magnificent success delivering massive returns to the country - we’ll be getting tax rebates. 

Anyone with any understanding of history or economics will understand just how bat**** crazy these ideas are.z 
 

Edited December 4 by Mungler

[Mungler]

And the good news just keeps rolling in.

 

[Weihrauch17]

25 minutes ago, Mungler said:

And the good news just keeps rolling in.

 

To kind to him.

[Penelope]

15 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Rethink the benefits of nationalisation, if its not going to be beneficial to passengers, why bother ?

It's about idealogy, not the passengers.

[Rewulf]

3 hours ago, Penelope said:

It's about idealogy, not the passengers.

Exactly, Marxist ideology. 

The general aims of "seize the means of production" were to create equality, yet labour's nationalisation plans change nothing, and will likely make things worse, they don't even know how to do socialism properly 🙄 

A bold move would be to nationalise, then make train travel free like some countries have, a true socialist concept.

There is a distinct lack of intelligence in this government, and its painfully obvious.

[Mungler]

Well, there we have it. We’re officially in recession and the economy has started to contract. 

Standby for worse Christmas trading on record too.

What a brilliant Labour budget and so masterfully delivered. 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

2 minutes ago, Mungler said:

Well, there we have it. We’re officially in recession and the economy has started to contract. 

Standby for worse Christmas trading on record too.

What a brilliant Labour budget and so masterfully delivered. 

Starmer and Reeves must be SO PROUD..........................................

[Mungler]

1 minute ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Starmer and Reeves must be SO PROUD..........................................

The outcome of that budget was just so painfully obvious to anyone with half a brain. And as for its delivery off the back of months of negativity. Madness. It just shows that Labour only work in opposition. 

I still blame the conservatives and would dearly love to see all the wets kicked out of the party (they have the Lib Dems after all) and a merger between reform and conservative. Problem is, right now, the Conservative badge is toxic for so many - reform are more likely to capture disappointed Labour voters. 

 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Just now, Mungler said:

The outcome of that budget was just so painfully obvious to anyone with half a brain. And as for its delivery off the back of months of negativity. Madness. It just shows that Labour only work in opposition. I still blame the conservatives and would dearly love to see all the wets kicked out of the party (they have the Lib Dems after all) and a merger between reform and conservative. Problem is, right now, the Conservative badge is toxic for so many - reform are more likely to capture disappointed Labour voters. 

Yes indeed, a proper Conservative Party in opposition could be very interesting, ditch the hand wringers, send them back to the lily livered Liberals and get back to the business of planning to restore this country to its former glory.

[johnphilip]

Found this letter interesting. May have to tap on it if the writing is small.