EU and Uk leaders out of touch with public opinion. Time for a reset.

[Rewulf]

5 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

I don’t want us to return, the point was we already had a pretty good deal, yet some were not satisfied and focussed on unicorn outcomes (like improved immigration) which were never going to materialise. 

I dont dispute that, the thing for me was where the EU was heading, the idea of 'Ever closer union, fiscal alignment, and those in the commission looking for more power in an increasingly unhinged fashion.
The EU was a good idea, as a trading alliance, but as a political entity ? Thats not what we signed up for.

Its a small vindication of this opinion that the commission has backed off somewhat on these extreme ideals since we left, theyve realised that not just the UK, but several other countries arent happy that unelected individuals are overruling elected governments.
Another vindication is the fact that the EU seeks to enlarge itself by bypassing its own rules on membership ascension, poorer countries, with rife corruption, are being literally invited to join, such is the desperation for more land area and population, this can only cost more money, open up more migration, and generally weaken the whole project surely ?
 

[Scully]

55 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

…….the thing for me was where the EU was heading, the idea of 'Ever closer union, fiscal alignment, and those in the commission looking for more power in an increasingly unhinged fashion.
The EU was a good idea, as a trading alliance, but as a political entity ? Thats not what we signed up for.

Its a small vindication of this opinion that the commission has backed off somewhat on these extreme ideals since we left, theyve realised that not just the UK, but several other countries arent happy that unelected individuals are overruling elected governments.
Another vindication is the fact that the EU seeks to enlarge itself by bypassing its own rules on membership ascension, poorer countries, with rife corruption, are being literally invited to join, such is the desperation for more land area and population, this can only cost more money, open up more migration, and generally weaken the whole project surely ?
 

Good post.
I can’t believe that people are STILL having to explain their reasons for voting to leave! 
Trade agreement? Fine. Foreign unelected politicians dictating policy of other foreign countries? Not fine. 

[oowee]

2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Hang on a minute, despite @scolopax liking for only white migrants, dinghy arrivals are illegal entries, you are a proponent of LEGAL means of entry to the UK, be they refugees, or those INVITED over on the work visa system ?
So lets not conflate the two.
Why doesnt labour, live up to its moniker, and put some effort into getting the millions of unemployed British back to work, who already have somewhere to live,  rather than importing low wage migrants who need housing, services and benefits ?
Its simply compounding the problems that we already have !

We dont need an EU defence alliance, we have NATO, if the US leaves NATO (I would if I were the States) it doesnt mean NATO ceases to exist without its financial benefactor, or does it ?
Therein lies the issue the US has.

The EU doesnt need an integrated army under its command, it has far too much power as it is (for a trading bloc )

Nato will be of little help without the US. We (europe) have billions to spend on defence. We will want to spend that in europe. It's good for us to stand on our own two feet and that means building our own defence. We want our own weapons that we can use when we want to. Article 5 is yesteryear thinking. 

No conflation needed. Workers (visa) families from the third world are of course legal and very welcome under the circumstances. They are however less easily integrated than migrants from within europe. The country chose to leave the EU and in doing so chose to import migrants from the third world instead of europe. 

It would be great to do more training and no doubt we will get there at some point but currently we have  a large credit bill to settle. 

 

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, oowee said:

The country chose to leave the EU and in doing so chose to import migrants from the third world instead of europe. 

EU workers have exactly the same rights to live and work in the UK as non EU, so we didnt 'choose' any such thing.

[oowee]

1 minute ago, Rewulf said:

EU workers have exactly the same rights to live and work in the UK as non EU, so we didnt 'choose' any such thing.

🤣 We said to our near neighbours, not only do we not want to be part of the EU club and we are putting in place job entry thresholds. Thresholds that make the UK job options unattractive (compared to EU choices) to you. Hence the switch to third world applicants. 

Pay your money take your chances.

[Rewulf]

14 minutes ago, oowee said:

Pay your money take your chances.

Dont worry labours going to sort it 

[oowee]

14 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Dont worry labours going to sort it 

Certainly on the 'pay your money' side of things 😆. Chances .... the odds are not looking good. 

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, oowee said:

Certainly on the 'pay your money' side of things 😆. Chances .... the odds are not looking good. 

🤣👍

[Raja Clavata]

6 hours ago, Rewulf said:

I dont dispute that, the thing for me was where the EU was heading, the idea of 'Ever closer union, fiscal alignment, and those in the commission looking for more power in an increasingly unhinged fashion.
The EU was a good idea, as a trading alliance, but as a political entity ? Thats not what we signed up for.

Its a small vindication of this opinion that the commission has backed off somewhat on these extreme ideals since we left, theyve realised that not just the UK, but several other countries arent happy that unelected individuals are overruling elected governments.
Another vindication is the fact that the EU seeks to enlarge itself by bypassing its own rules on membership ascension, poorer countries, with rife corruption, are being literally invited to join, such is the desperation for more land area and population, this can only cost more money, open up more migration, and generally weaken the whole project surely ?
 

I can’t disagree with any of that. As we’ve discussed numerous times it just boiled down to a personal choice.

 

5 hours ago, Scully said:

Good post.
I can’t believe that people are STILL having to explain their reasons for voting to leave! 
Trade agreement? Fine. Foreign unelected politicians dictating policy of other foreign countries? Not fine. 

That works both ways though doesn’t it.

[armsid]

Brexit was the chance to put GB first by getting work done here with our own workers who we should have been training not leaving them on benifits paying no NI tax or pension contributions How many not working in the country 1.5 million under 25 How many above that age? A country cannot survive with vast numbers of the population drawing welfare free prescriptions etc due to this housing benifit council tax paid and drawing more than the working populace and then let immigrants coming here illegally draw the same if not more cash from the coffers while jobs we used to do and take pride in are done in france and other EU countries that safeguard their jobs with their own rules EG to work in germany you have to learn to speak and write in German within 6 mths of getting a job no ifs no buts if you fail to do this no job no dole France if a non French worker is employed when a Frenchman is available the company can and is fined i know i applied for a job i had the qualificatioms answer i got French jobs for French citizens so much for the movement of workers We had world beating skills here and trained apprentices to a high standard The EU provided a ready trained workforce so training here was not required hence low skills and wages for the indigenous populace Thiscould have changed after Brexit but our leaders did not want this and why we have the current situation As said previously we could make everything we import here in this country we have the manpower sitting at home it just needs the will of our head in the sand leaders along with the civil servants to enact the will of the people THE ONES WHO PAY THEIR WAGES this is why Trump has won the US election he brought jobs back to the USA putting his country first

[oowee]

29 minutes ago, armsid said:

Brexit was the chance to put GB first by getting work done here with our own workers who we should have been training not leaving them on benifits paying no NI tax or pension contributions How many not working in the country 1.5 million under 25 How many above that age? A country cannot survive with vast numbers of the population drawing welfare free prescriptions etc due to this housing benifit council tax paid and drawing more than the working populace and then let immigrants coming here illegally draw the same if not more cash from the coffers while jobs we used to do and take pride in are done in france and other EU countries that safeguard their jobs with their own rules EG to work in germany you have to learn to speak and write in German within 6 mths of getting a job no ifs no buts if you fail to do this no job no dole France if a non French worker is employed when a Frenchman is available the company can and is fined i know i applied for a job i had the qualificatioms answer i got French jobs for French citizens so much for the movement of workers We had world beating skills here and trained apprentices to a high standard The EU provided a ready trained workforce so training here was not required hence low skills and wages for the indigenous populace Thiscould have changed after Brexit but our leaders did not want this and why we have the current situation As said previously we could make everything we import here in this country we have the manpower sitting at home it just needs the will of our head in the sand leaders along with the civil servants to enact the will of the people THE ONES WHO PAY THEIR WAGES this is why Trump has won the US election he brought jobs back to the USA putting his country first

It did not happen under Trump. The Biden chip project is a good model but you cannot hold back the economic tide. Like labour, Trump only offers the only the end of the incumbent. 

What does putting the country first mean? We are all a subset of a world economy. 

[Gordon R]

Quote

 The country chose to leave the EU and in doing so chose to import migrants from the third world instead of europe. 

How silly of me. I thought the channel crossers were coming from Europe (France). Not sure just how we chose to import them. I must have missed that vote.

[oowee]

4 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

How silly of me. I thought the channel crossers were coming from Europe (France). Not sure just how we chose to import them. I must have missed that vote.

Of course they do but they pale into insignificance, relative to the vast numbers (family members) that come from the third world under the (legal) work visa program. Basically a vote for Brexit was a vote to exchange workers from the EU with those from the third world together with their much larger family groups. A vote for Brexit was a vote to increase immigration to the UK.

Not that I need to explain, as I am constantly reminded voters knew what they voted for. 

[old man]

9 hours ago, armsid said:

Brexit was the chance to put GB first by getting work done here with our own workers who we should have been training not leaving them on benifits paying no NI tax or pension contributions How many not working in the country 1.5 million under 25 How many above that age? A country cannot survive with vast numbers of the population drawing welfare free prescriptions etc due to this housing benifit council tax paid and drawing more than the working populace and then let immigrants coming here illegally draw the same if not more cash from the coffers while jobs we used to do and take pride in are done in france and other EU countries that safeguard their jobs with their own rules EG to work in germany you have to learn to speak and write in German within 6 mths of getting a job no ifs no buts if you fail to do this no job no dole France if a non French worker is employed when a Frenchman is available the company can and is fined i know i applied for a job i had the qualificatioms answer i got French jobs for French citizens so much for the movement of workers We had world beating skills here and trained apprentices to a high standard The EU provided a ready trained workforce so training here was not required hence low skills and wages for the indigenous populace Thiscould have changed after Brexit but our leaders did not want this and why we have the current situation As said previously we could make everything we import here in this country we have the manpower sitting at home it just needs the will of our head in the sand leaders along with the civil servants to enact the will of the people THE ONES WHO PAY THEIR WAGES this is why Trump has won the US election he brought jobs back to the USA putting his country first

Succinctly put.

Something else that affects the situation is that two edged sword the NHS? When you go looking, inevitably you find more than you want? The result could be in the spiraling numbers noted as sick?

[Scully]

11 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

 

 

That works both ways though doesn’t it.

Do you mean having to explain why they voted to leave? It’s tiresome I know, but not as boring as constantly being told that we ‘knew what we were voting for’. 🙂

Speaking for myself, I knew exactly what I was voting for. 

[Mungler]

Leaving aside that a return to EU membership will be the biggest known affront to democracy, Europe is a busted flush and is falling apart at the seams.

We could have cemented Brexit if we ever had a committed ‘Conservative’ government and if Sunak had called a late election post the US election - Nigel would have a seat at the high table and deals with the US would be entirely compelling and the fading EU a distant memory.

The thing about remoaners is that I haven’t met one yet who isn’t singularly driven by a return to the EU based on their wanting easier European travel and shorter queues at the airports - they’ll hide it a little but a thin scrape of the surface revealing their own ‘higher status’ view of themselves as European and how Brexit has really screwed their holiday home plans. 

As for Starmer - there is nothing he won’t **** up and so expect anything. We are heading back to the 70’s for sure. We can only look forward to what will come after - the pendulum swing will be epic. 

 

[Gordon R]

Mungler - a harsh, but accurate critique.😀

[Rewulf]

13 hours ago, oowee said:

Basically a vote for Brexit was a vote to exchange workers from the EU with those from the third world together with their much larger family groups. A vote for Brexit was a vote to increase immigration to the UK.

Basically thats how you see it.
Although initially there were a lot of EU workers, and just as many shirkers, coming to the UK, most of them never left.
Under the tories, with the full interaction of the left driven civil service, non EU 3rd world migration skyrocketed, this has been rising steadily well before Brexit.
Nearly a million last year, at least 80% of them non EU, so 2 things. a: EU workers havent stopped coming, and b: Are we really issuing work visa for all these non EU workers ?
How many jobs actually are there available EVERY year in the UK ? I mean, our economy must be booming ! 

Labour has said its going to build 1.5 million homes (it wont) but that only counters lack of housing for 2-3 years at present levels of net migration, never mind it will take longer than that to build them, and  never mind the extra services and infrastructure needed.
Trying to seal the leaking bucket of UK finances with mud, isnt going to work, we need to stop taking in migrants, legal and illegal now, not try some wishy washy plan to 'smash the gangs' 
It just wont work, many see our liberal government as the perfect ground to plan that permanent trip over here to the land of milk and honey, and theyre really not wrong.

Cap migration, points system, and start sending these illegals BACK, and I really dont care where.

[Vince Green]

20 hours ago, oowee said:

🤣 We said to our near neighbours, not only do we not want to be part of the EU club and we are putting in place job entry thresholds. Thresholds that make the UK job options unattractive (compared to EU choices) to you. Hence the switch to third world applicants. 

Pay your money take your chances.

 That's not true at all. Real job applicants from the EU can still get jobs in this country. 

All we have stopped were the chancers that we never wanted or needed in the first place but had no mechanism to keep them out.

Now we need to work on keeping out the the third world chancers that we equally don't want or need.

We have to have a needs based policy for inward migration including an exit clause when they cease to be useful.

[oowee]

35 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

 That's not true at all. Real job applicants from the EU can still get jobs in this country. 

All we have stopped were the chancers that we never wanted or needed in the first place but had no mechanism to keep them out.

Now we need to work on keeping out the the third world chancers that we equally don't want or need.

We have to have a needs based policy for inward migration including an exit clause when they cease to be useful.

A worker coming from the EU is looking at a marginal shift in opportunity. We have added complexity through the work visa application. This alone will convince those on the margins not to come. What we have now offered is a very attractive family package to third world applicants. There is huge pent up demand and Brexit provided the opportunity. Unlike EU local movers from countries with similar living standards, those from third world countries are very unlikely to return. 

Last 3 years 2.4m net migration, last three years before Brexit 850k.

[Rewulf]

31 minutes ago, oowee said:

A worker coming from the EU is looking at a marginal shift in opportunity.

That seriously depends where they are coming from, a worker from Poland for instance would be on 2-3 x his comparable Polish salary, a German, likely less than the UK.

 

32 minutes ago, oowee said:

We have added complexity through the work visa application.

No, we have added a control measure, and it was sorely needed, the control measure also applies to non EU workers AND students, who comprise 40 % of net non EU migration.

 

34 minutes ago, oowee said:

What we have now offered is a very attractive family package to third world applicants. There is huge pent up demand and Brexit provided the opportunity.

Brexit didnt provide the opportunity, poor government policy did, and thats one of the main reasons they are now in political wilderness.

 

36 minutes ago, oowee said:

Last 3 years 2.4m net migration, last three years before Brexit 850k.

The problem with those figures is that we didnt actually know how many EU residents we had, the ONS estimated 3 million, when the right to remain scheme was launched, 6 million applied.
It stands to reason that the ONS couldnt, and still cant, work out net migration, last year they got it wrong by 200,000 pax ?
Trusting the figures is jaded thinking.

Heres an example.
The Guardian, and political commentators drooled over a figure of £1 million an hour in lost trade put out by the ONS https://www.cityam.com/eu-membership-vs-lost-exports-and-trade-forget-extra-nhs-cash-brexit-costs-britain-173m-per-week/?fbclid=IwY2xjawHKlThleHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHfozVNBE0uKqwHbPkdXnK_8fDo3r7vPJzSRoqbSmkQZ9CHaI5tzqL8XDEA_aem_3Z8uhf9A7sNbQQwQZ5ym4g

''Compare this to the loss in exports to the EU. The ONS reported that UK exports of goods to the EU fell by -£20bn in 2021, compared with 2018, the last period of stable trade.''

Except, these figures were not put out by the ONS, they were 'compiled' by a firm called Parcel Hero.
Who did some hasty sums on the back of a fag packet.

“Even if we subtract the true £11bn cost of EU membership for 2018, from the £20bn drop in EU export earnings, UK plc is still £9bn poorer than it was in 2018,” said David Jinks, head of consumer research at international transport firm ParcelHero, which carried out the research.

“In January 2021 alone (the first month of Brexit), the value of goods exported to the European Union fell from £14.3bn in the previous month to £7.8bn,” he stressed.

“Comparing the cost of membership to lost EU export trade, Britain is considerably worse off post-Brexit,” Jinks told City A.M. today.''

Now the January 21 date (and the months around it )  is important, can you remember why ?

Remember skewed data = skewed opinions.

[Vince Green]

41 minutes ago, oowee said:

A worker coming from the EU is looking at a marginal shift in opportunity. We have added complexity through the work visa application. This alone will convince those on the margins not to come. What we have now offered is a very attractive family package to third world applicants. There is huge pent up demand and Brexit provided the opportunity. Unlike EU local movers from countries with similar living standards, those from third world countries are very unlikely to return. 

Last 3 years 2.4m net migration, last three years before Brexit 850k.

I would take you to task on the EU migrants coming from countries with similar living standards. Does Romania, Hungary, Bulgaria, Lithuania etc have similar living standards? I don't think so.

And as for the net migration figures pre Brexit. You can't make comparisons because the ONS didn't have a clue who was here, who had gone home and when.

That was a fundamental part of the problem. It wasn't just free movement it was totally unregulated and largely undocumented. 

[oowee]

21 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

I would take you to task on the EU migrants coming from countries with similar living standards. Does Romania, Hungary, Bulgaria, Lithuania etc have similar living standards? I don't think so.

And as for the net migration figures pre Brexit. You can't make comparisons because the ONS didn't have a clue who was here, who had gone home and when.

That was a fundamental part of the problem. It wasn't just free movement it was totally unregulated and largely undocumented. 

Relative to Nigeria, India and Pakistan I would say they are all likely streets ahead. 

Wherever you stand on the numbers, we now have millions more migrants here from third world countries than we had. It's a direct result of the Brexit choice. 

Edited December 14 by oowee

[murray smith]

EU and UK leaders do seem very much in touch with the US Govt. and Large American and Global Corporations though, makes a body wonder just who are they are all working for? It doesnt seem to be the native electorate in any meaningful way. Are the left and right just two cheeks of the same global rear end, rendering UK party politics irrelevant? We certainly do live in interesting times.

[Vince Green]

1 hour ago, oowee said:

Relative to Nigeria, India and Pakistan I would say they are all likely streets ahead. 

Wherever you stand on the numbers, we now have millions more migrants here from third world countries than we had. It's a direct result of the Brexit choice. 

I don't accept that it's anything to do with Brexit. How can it be? There is no connection. Except obliquely that France won't stop the boats because it wants to punish us for escaping.

So, if you are saying that we shouldn't have voted for Brexit because France would behave badly. I would say it just shows  that we were right to leave, and good riddance.