Why I stopped buying Fiocchi

[PhilR]

2 hours ago, grahamch said:

Are these loaded in Italy still, used to use a lot without issues but heard some Fiocchi was being loaded at Lyalvale in the UK after the take over.

The Fblu, basic Fblack and the TT range are loaded by Lyalvale Express. Not sure about the Super Blacks, F3 or Official ranges.

I've shot Fiocchi for a considerable number of years without any problems.  I was most concerned to discover Express were going to be loading the FBlacks here. However, I'm surprised to say that, to date, I've not had any issues performance wise with them at all, barring lack of stock.

[ryle]

24 minutes ago, Bigbob said:

Might of been a offer of free carts or a discount voucher for good customer services 

You're right, I'll definitely bear that in mind in future!

[BobbyH]

Can different manufacturers really be that different, or is it psychological?

Fblacks are now being loaded by Lyalvale, so does that make them the same ‘cartridge’ as Laylvale?

My last DTL comp I hit 84/100 255/300 with Eley Superb 28gram 7.5, (only because I got a slab free).

I then used Gamebores JustCartridges comp cartridges in 28gram 7.5….felt the same but had a much lower score, 55/100.

Is it mental, or is it the cartridge? Purley mental I think.

When I was trying DTL out first, I used Fblu 24gram and was hitting more than a 28gram JC comp cartridge.

[Old farrier]

9 hours ago, BobbyH said:

Can different manufacturers really be that different, or is it psychological?

Fblacks are now being loaded by Lyalvale, so does that make them the same ‘cartridge’ as Laylvale?

My last DTL comp I hit 84/100 255/300 with Eley Superb 28gram 7.5, (only because I got a slab free).

I then used Gamebores JustCartridges comp cartridges in 28gram 7.5….felt the same but had a much lower score, 55/100.

Is it mental, or is it the cartridge? Purley mental I think.

When I was trying DTL out first, I used Fblu 24gram and was hitting more than a 28gram JC comp cartridge.

Have you pattern tested the different cartridges in your gun were they plastic or fibre wad? 
 

personaly think it’s the quality control that lets some of the cartridge manufacturers down a few duds in a slab and then you lose confidence in the brand 

[BobbyH]

54 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

Have you pattern tested the different cartridges in your gun were they plastic or fibre wad? 
 

personaly think it’s the quality control that lets some of the cartridge manufacturers down a few duds in a slab and then you lose confidence in the brand 

I have never patterned any gun/Cartridge. And I normally use plastic wads.

Yeah, that’s understandable about the duds in a batch. 

[Fellside]

9 hours ago, BobbyH said:

Can different manufacturers really be that different, or is it psychological?

Fblacks are now being loaded by Lyalvale, so does that make them the same ‘cartridge’ as Laylvale?

My last DTL comp I hit 84/100 255/300 with Eley Superb 28gram 7.5, (only because I got a slab free).

I then used Gamebores JustCartridges comp cartridges in 28gram 7.5….felt the same but had a much lower score, 55/100.

Is it mental, or is it the cartridge? Purley mental I think.

When I was trying DTL out first, I used Fblu 24gram and was hitting more than a 28gram JC comp cartridge.

Consistency from one cartridge to another is pretty useful - and batch to batch. As Old farrier points out quality control is key. If the cartridge timing and velocity is too variable, the challenges are obvious, especially at rangier stuff. I think having a ‘confidence cartridge’ has a psychological advantage too of course. Well……it does for me anyway. Other views are available. 

[Poor Shot]

10 hours ago, BobbyH said:

Can different manufacturers really be that different, or is it psychological?

Fblacks are now being loaded by Lyalvale, so does that make them the same ‘cartridge’ as Laylvale?

My last DTL comp I hit 84/100 255/300 with Eley Superb 28gram 7.5, (only because I got a slab free).

I then used Gamebores JustCartridges comp cartridges in 28gram 7.5….felt the same but had a much lower score, 55/100.

Is it mental, or is it the cartridge? Purley mental I think.

When I was trying DTL out first, I used Fblu 24gram and was hitting more than a 28gram JC comp cartridge.

In this day and age I don't think that there's all that much difference between the manufacturers. Especially as most are using off the shelf components made by Cheddite or similar. I don't think there are many manufacturers who manufacture their own powders, plastic wads or cases. Some drop and grade their own shot with their own combinations of lead, antimony etc and some just buy in shot from a third party and grade and some just buy in shot and feed it straight into the machines. 

If there was more than a 5% real world performance difference between the cheapest plastic wad cartridges (Fiocchi TT1, litespeed, Hull Superfasts and so on) and the most expensive plastic wad cartridges (Hull Sovereign, Gamebore Dark Storm Onyx) of the same shot size and common wad type then I would be surprised. I'd even go as far as saying that 95% of shooters probably wouldn't notice a difference in performance in blind testing. Fiber wad cartridges likely have more a gulf between the highest and lowest as the performance of the wad really makes the difference with those. 

IMO its the psychological game that really makes the difference. If you have a good day with cartridge X, set a new PB or achieve a high gun in a competition or something and then have a nightmare of a day with cartridge Y, you're much more likely to feel confident in continuing to use cartridge X. In reality it's highly likely that you could have swapped cartridge X and Y around in those scenarios and had the same result. 

Comparing real world performance of different cartridges is quite hard to do due to the sheer amount of inconsistencies in how people shoot in both the short and long term. I'd wager that if you could remove the human from the equation then any modern cartridge could hit any target (within reason) 999 times out of a 1000. 

Edited Tuesday at 10:08 by Poor Shot

[Fellside]

I personally think that there is a significant difference (> 5%) between not only different brands/types but also between cartridges from the same box if the quality and consistency is lacking. While velocity can vary, another aspect that can differ considerably is pattern quality. I have come across some excellent patterns in the past, but also some real stinkers. Usually the most blotchy patterns (with correspondingly open areas) are those which have a snappy velocity but with low antimony soft lead. This also leads to pellets bonding. I have also had highly erratic patterns from cartridges where the plastic wad opened partially, fully (flowered) or not opened at all. Some were also loosing their petals altogether, so that only the base plastic plug could be found. These were fired vertically to test for wad quality only - i.e not impacting a pattern plate. This of course causes inconsistencies in both the pattern quality and also pattern width at a given distance. Some patterns can also be skewed away from centre. I don’t use plastic wads these days and find fibre wads - providing they are of consistent quality - to be far less problematic. 

There is certainly a great psychological advantage in using a cartridge which we’ve shot well with. However, it is also likely that this confidence may emanate from considerable product evolution and development. At worst it may arise from a manufacturer’s recipe of convenience and low cost, which by hapless coincidence just works well. Which ever way we arrive at consistency and quality, there is no doubt that these aspects are important. 

If anyone has doubts about the importance of using a regular consistent cartridge, box to box and batch to batch…….? Then try suggesting to an Olympic competitor, that they shouldn’t use that cartridge they’ve got used to and which got them in to the final. Suggest instead that they should use this totally different random one….?! I think we all know what their answer would be. Unfortunately I’ve never been faced with that dilemma….. 🙂. However I do appreciate that some cartridges do perform differently, enough to be noticeable: more recoil, less recoil, slow, fast, good/bad patters through my chosen gun and choke. Admittedly, if I’m shooting at a ground where targets are 20 to 35 yards, it won’t make a huge difference, but on the long stuff…..? Definitely. Is it possible that I can get just an extra couple of breaks out of my 100 with consistent quality? Sure. 
In a competition, I won’t say no to that. 

[wymberley]

18 minutes ago, Fellside said:

I don’t use plastic wads these days and find fibre wads - providing they are of consistent quality - to be far less problematic. 

Yep, perhaps just to add except where back/over boring rears its ugly head.

[Old farrier]

9 minutes ago, wymberley said:

Yep, perhaps just to add except where back/over boring rears its ugly head.

Why’s that then? 
 

the bore of a gun won’t change between different brands of cartridges it’s a constant along with a fixed choke 

so if you find one that works in your gun back bored or not and it gives a good pattern stick with it 

Ask anyone with a browning special waterfowl to sell it to you 

I’ll wager the answer will be no (there back bored) and probably the best over and under wildfowl killing gun out there 

[wymberley]

12 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

Why’s that then? 
 

the bore of a gun won’t change between different brands of cartridges it’s a constant along with a fixed choke 

so if you find one that works in your gun back bored or not and it gives a good pattern stick with it 

Ask anyone with a browning special waterfowl to sell it to you 

I’ll wager the answer will be no (there back bored) and probably the best over and under wildfowl killing gun out there 

Get out of bed the wrong side, again?

So is my Maxus.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

15 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

Why’s that then? 
 

the bore of a gun won’t change between different brands of cartridges it’s a constant along with a fixed choke 

so if you find one that works in your gun back bored or not and it gives a good pattern stick with it 

Ask anyone with a browning special waterfowl to sell it to you 

I’ll wager the answer will be no (there back bored) and probably the best over and under wildfowl killing gun made by Browning out there 

Fixed that for you....................................

[Old farrier]

7 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Fixed that for you....................................

Thank you 😂😂

[Fellside]

44 minutes ago, wymberley said:

Yep, perhaps just to add except where back/over boring rears its ugly head.

I did once own a ‘back bored’ browning. It was .740 thou’ across its true bore size, also with long cones. I did notice that the hard composite fibre wads (more like a solid plug really) were less than ideal. I presumed at the time that there was a little ‘blow-past’ occurring. However, I was saved by the very different Eley fibre wad. This was much more malleable and for want of a better expression….. squashy. The patterns were excellent. I can’t prove scientifically that the wad helped, but it is highly likely that it compressed / expanded more than the harder type, providing a better seal through the long cones and overbored barrels. Hey ho, you live and learn. 

[wymberley]

15 minutes ago, Fellside said:

I did once own a ‘back bored’ browning. It was .740 thou’ across its true bore size, also with long cones. I did notice that the hard composite fibre wads (more like a solid plug really) were less than ideal. I presumed at the time that there was a little ‘blow-past’ occurring. However, I was saved by the very different Eley fibre wad. This was much more malleable and for want of a better expression….. squashy. The patterns were excellent. I can’t prove scientifically that the wad helped, but it is highly likely that it compressed / expanded more than the harder type, providing a better seal through the long cones and overbored barrels. Hey ho, you live and learn. 

 Yep again. 

I half expected some form of negative reply to my post which is why I tried not to be too positive - but to no avail.

I think you've nailed it. Found the below article which although it doesn't relate directly to over bored barrels, it does explain what can (NOT necessarily will) happen and may be of interest to the 410 guys - or not:

Microsoft Word - 'Blown' Patterns and 'Balled Shot' - pdfMachine from Broadgun Software, http://pdfmachine.com, a great PDF writer utility!

[Fellside]

41 minutes ago, wymberley said:

 Yep again. 

I half expected some form of negative reply to my post which is why I tried not to be too positive - but to no avail.

I think you've nailed it. Found the below article which although it doesn't relate directly to over bored barrels, it does explain what can (NOT necessarily will) happen and may be of interest to the 410 guys - or not:

Microsoft Word - 'Blown' Patterns and 'Balled Shot' - pdfMachine from Broadgun Software, http://pdfmachine.com, a great PDF writer utility!

Interesting - thanks for posting. I did have a surprising experience with a certain cartridge type when using my back-bored browning. Namely the clumping or ‘welding’ of shot. It was only prevalent with this one particular brand, which I won’t name and shame. I began testing the patterns after punching a hole all the way through an overhead pigeon. Not high - maybe 30 yards. Cylinder choke. It was as though it had been hit by a 303. The wad was short and very hard, with obvious consequences. As mentioned the Eley cartridges / wads performed fine. 

[wymberley]

1 hour ago, Fellside said:

Interesting - thanks for posting. I did have a surprising experience with a certain cartridge type when using my back-bored browning. Namely the clumping or ‘welding’ of shot. It was only prevalent with this one particular brand, which I won’t name and shame. I began testing the patterns after punching a hole all the way through an overhead pigeon. Not high - maybe 30 yards. Cylinder choke. It was as though it had been hit by a 303. The wad was short and very hard, with obvious consequences. As mentioned the Eley cartridges / wads performed fine. 

The best shot that I have ever seen was down to 'balled' shot. A mate and I were stood in the middle of Milltown Airfield when he up and shot a grey partridge. He paced it out at 45 where we found two wings a few inches apart. Nothing else.

[Fellside]

38 minutes ago, wymberley said:

The best shot that I have ever seen was down to 'balled' shot. A mate and I were stood in the middle of Milltown Airfield when he up and shot a grey partridge. He paced it out at 45 where we found two wings a few inches apart. Nothing else.

Can quite believe it. I think hitting my aforementioned pigeon was just a bit of luck considering the balling etc. I didn’t fancy eating it……! I have vivid memories of a big plume of feathers shooting up in to the sky from the exit. 

Anyway, think I’m straying off topic some what. So I will just finish by saying yes I like Fiocchi fibre cart’s. There you go….. 🙂

[Scully]

23 hours ago, Fellside said:

 

Anyway, think I’m straying off topic some what. So I will just finish by saying yes I like Fiocchi fibre cart’s. There you go….. 🙂

Me too. When I run out of Eleys I always buy Fiocchi at my local ground. Can’t say I’ve ever had any problems with them. 

[udderlyoffroad]

I have little constructive to add to this other than to point out that seemingly Fiocchi’s sales reps think “there be dragons” west of Oxford. Never seen any for sale locally. Hull & Eley rule the roost round here, even rebadged clay ground carts come in Eley or Hull slab boxes.

[Fellside]

22 hours ago, Scully said:

Me too. When I run out of Eleys I always buy Fiocchi at my local ground. Can’t say I’ve ever had any problems with them. 

I’m currently down to my last slab of Fiocchi TT2 Fibre. Stamped as 7 1/2 but really UK 7s. Marvellous on clay pigeons…. and the real ones. And…… they’re red! 

[Scully]

1 hour ago, Fellside said:

I’m currently down to my last slab of Fiocchi TT2 Fibre. Stamped as 7 1/2 but really UK 7s. Marvellous on clay pigeons…. and the real ones. And…… they’re red! 

🙂 I wouldn’t know what type these are, it’s been a while since I bought any, but the cases were clear, which possibly explains my scores! 

[steve1066]

On 17/02/2025 at 15:39, steve1066 said:

Thanks Poor Shot, I shall strip it this week and have a look.

Hi Poor Shot,

took the pin out and found in perfect condition and no crud.

so must be the cartridges.

[D3ave]

I like the Fioccci Litespeed in fibre but we did have a problem with a batch last winter when there seemed to be a quite a few light strikes. I measured the depth of primer seating in a large number of cases and there was a big variation (it was only the deep seated ones that wasnt going off)   These were the Italian made ones.

Not had a problem since or bothered to measure any more,only problem is getting hold of them in this part of the country.

[Fellside]

3 hours ago, Scully said:

🙂 I wouldn’t know what type these are, it’s been a while since I bought any, but the cases were clear, which possibly explains my scores! 

🙂 👍