BASC New Centre Appeal

[Cranfield]

I think if you are not a BASC member, any criticism of them you make is almost irrelevant.

 

(I am a member, which makes me a "supporter" and therefore I have the right to criticise them when I think they go wrong.)

[David BASC]

And I welcome your support of BASC Cranfiled and your oppinion.

 

Thank you.

 

David

[Mungler]

Currently, I have two BASC subscriptions running - one personal and one through my syndicate.

 

I think the begging letter was wide of the mark and have said so.

 

They may well need a media centre, but there are other ways and means of getting one.

 

As matters stand, I will still be renewing my BASC subs :unsure: I just can't get the hang of dresses....

[dustyfox]

I think if you are not a BASC member, any criticism of them you make is almost irrelevant.

 

(I am a member, which makes me a "supporter" and therefore I have the right to criticise them when I think they go wrong.)

 

I dont agree with you sorry.

 

BASC has got 123000 or so out of 500000+1 SGC holders, BASC is the biggest shooting organisation so what people have been saying has the biggest voice. So effectively BASC will influence non BASC members if they have these courses and any future legislation that comes in etc. So I think non members do have the right to criticise. Its like Im not a labour government supporter so I cant criticise them for it even though I voted in the general election thats what your saying.

 

How is BASC supposed to know how to get more members in if non members cant criticise them?:unsure: They can then see what needs to change in the Organisation to suite more members needs.

 

I hate this talk about you have to have BASC membership to go shooting that is total ******. Talk about demanding power.

 

People saying shooting wont be here if it wasnt for BASC your probably right but if the day did decide to arrive that shooting will be banned all the organisations out there supporting shooting whether its SGA NGO CCC SACS BASC CA will all unite and I think it is better if there was just more than one organisation pressing the government. Each organisation has the good points and bad points and people choose the ones that is mainly good for them. If I had the money I wouod join all of them but I haven't and chose the one that I think is good for me.

 

If members want to help with this new Centre appeal its there money and they can do whatever they want with it, its good to see David BASC taking the time to reply and take some thought into this situation and I think Becassier you need to stop accusing David of things that he probably hasnt done, you will make enemies if you do and I dont think you want that.

 

Df

[rarms]

How specifically will a media centre be advantageous over the equipment you have already?

[dazza]

I see BASC has done a "round robin" to get its supporters posting here. You see you have communication guys and you really don't need your centre.

 

Well done!

 

 

Becassier

 

For **** sake change the record. Have you nothing else to post about? What's the point coming on here just to slag BASC?

[David BASC]

I agree with DF that there has to be more than one shooting organization.

 

I have said before that specific disciplines need, in my view, their own representation, take target shooting as an example-they have a specific identity, and some target shooters do not want to be associated with live quarry shooting. OK that is their choice.

 

Also, some organizations are multi discipline, such as SACS or CA for example, and they have an important role to fill for a sector of the market I am sure, otherwise they would not exist.

 

BUT, if live quarry shooting and everything surrounding it such as gundog work, conservation / land management, game keeping is your ‘thing’ than, like the other 128,000 individuals that support it , BASC is the organization for you I would suggest.

 

I have been a member of several of the organizations the past, and to be honest I have let my memberships lapse of most apart from BASC, and the Salmon & Trout Association. Why? Well pigeon shooting, gundog work, air gunning and trout fishing are my favorite pastimes.

 

I was a member of the BFSS / CA for about 15 years, but left because I did not agree with the way they handled the fox hunting debate on several fronts – not least of all when it looked to my eyes they tried to shaft shooting and then brought the ban in 18 months earlier than the Government wanted- not they team I would want on my side if this was going to be their strategy for defending my chosen sport!

 

Interestingly, I see the main fishing organizations are coming together under one ‘umbrella’ great Idea in many ways but I honestly wonder how long it will be before a splinter group develops! Seen it so many times in shooting and for that matter other industries I have been involved in during the past.

 

I think Canfield has a point up to a point. It is very easy to criticize from the outside, and of course everyone has a right to criticize but perhaps only when they are in command of all the facts.

 

Constructive criticism is just that – constructive, Non Constructive criticism is, in my opinion, pointless and it can achieve nothing, and can often lead to conflict and ill feeling, I am sure we can all think of prime examples!

 

I think many of the comments have been very constructive indeed, and is great feedback, being told you have done something wrong is fine, provided there is a rational explanation behind it- as there has been on the vast majority of the criticisms of the BASC mailing on this thread.

 

I think people will almost always forgive you when you have made a mistake if you were honestly trying to do the right thing- but it just did not turn out that way. What is not forgivable is if you do make a mistake, people point it out in a rational way, and you do the same thing again!

 

David

[David BASC]

Rarms,

 

At the moment the media defense of shooting is largely reactive, something bad happen and we have to react. By than time the bad news story has captured the healings and the damage is done, The reaction is simply then a damage limitation exercise. :unsure:

 

The plan for the new communication centre is the launch and maintain a proactive media defense of shooting. At the moment we do not have any of the kit or facilities that the new cernter willl have.

 

Please take a look at the Centenary Appeal link off of the BASC web site, if this dose not answer all your questions, then please let me know, I will help all I can.

 

David

[Pinkfooty]

Very interesting thread. Let me have my tuppenceworth. Like Cranfield, I am a member and feel that gives me a right to be critical if I see something that I don't like or something I think could be done better.

 

Firstly, there can be no doubt at all that world-class communications facilities and abilities are key to the protection of our sport in this hi-tech, media-driven world. I am satisfied that we need this proposed Communications Centre and that every effort has been made to keep the costs as low as possible and maximise the benefits we can get from it. If anyone has doubts about that, read all about it on the BASC website before jumping to a conclusion.

 

Secondly, I think that the decision to fund this project by means of an appeal, rather than by jacking-up the subscriptions even more was the right one. Any accountants on PW will recognise that it is prudent to finance ongoing annual expenditure for running costs from annual income such as subscriptions but to look for special funding for special one-off projects. The Association's centenary is an ideal opportunity to run a Centenary Appeal for a project that will really help the organisation to gear up for the next 100 years.

 

The letter which prompted this discussion may have been ill-conceived but it is not costing the fanciful sums of money that have been quoted. I got mine last week enclosed with my copy of Shooting & Conservation and I doubt if the weight of the letter added a penny to the magazine postage costs.

 

Like some of the more serious contributors to this thread, my personal view is that even mentioning a suggested contribution of £40 was not the brightest idea. Some people have already contributed sums of over £1000 to this appeal; others have donated a pound or two.

 

With 128,000 members, BASC only needs an average contribution of about £6 per member to fully fund the project. Some, as I said, have donated 4-figure sums, some will be unable or unwilling to pay anything.

 

I am reminded of another capital project up here in Scotland a few years ago. We needed to extend the BASC Scottish Office at Trochry and, from memory, the cost was going to be around £80,000. (David will correct me if I have misquoted that figure, but it is certainly in the right ball-park.) It was decided that all this money should be raised, by an appeal, in Scotland, so as not to affect subscriptions or require a subsidy from members elsewhere in the UK. The way that was done was to invite members and clubs in Scotland to buy "bricks" in the new building. Again, from memory, those ranged from ordinary bricks at £5 each through bronze, silver and gold bricks to platinum bricks at, I seem to remember, £500. I bought whatever colour of brick I got for a £100 donation and my BASC club donated a similar amount. A local game syndicate put their "sweep money" for the season towards buying bricks. In this way the centre was funded by members donating what they felt they could afford individually and the "owners" of the bricks are all listed on a plaque in the entrance hall of the new building.

 

That model worked well for the Trochry extension and I suspect it would have worked well for the Communications Centre.

 

Finally, just let me dispel a couple of myths that arose earlier in the thread and arise with tedious regularity on PW BASC-bashing threads. Firstly, the BASC HQ is very far from "palatial". The conditions our staff work in are very poor and far too cramped. The outside of the building may look impressive but inside it is, to say the least, pretty shoddy. Secondly, the idea of "fat cat" wealthy staff is laughable. Our staff work for much lower salaries than they would command for similar responsibilities in other organisations.

 

So yes - the wording of the letter may have been ill-judged, but the appeal is essential and I hope that members will put aside the nature of the letter and donate whatever they can afford to make a positive contribution to the future of their sport.

 

Eric Begbie

Edited November 8, 2008 by Pinkfooty

[pavman]

Very interesting thread. Let me have my tuppenceworth.

 

just let me dispel a couple of myths that arose earlier in the thread and arise with tedious regularity on PW BASC-bashing threads. Firstly, the BASC HQ is very far from "palatial". The conditions our staff work in are very poor and far too cramped. The outside of the building may look impressive but inside it is, to say the least, pretty shoddy. Secondly, the idea of "fat cat" wealthy staff is laughable. Our staff work for much lower salaries than they would command for similar responsibilities in other organisations.

 

So yes - the wording of the letter may have been ill-judged, but the appeal is essential and I hope that members will put aside the nature of the letter and donate whatever they can afford to make a positive contribution to the future of their sport.

 

Eric Begbie

 

well put Eric,

 

I was aware of the brick in the wall appeal and a cracking idea it was to, to ask for 40 quid as a start shows how out of touch the media guys are at BASC HQ, even the NSPCC ask for 2 quid or what ever you can afford, this tends to take on a more humble approach and as a result folk dig deeper as they want to help more, also launch time was ill conceieved with the big BBC children in need appeal and Xmas round the corner everyone is asking and there little left to give, the appeal should have been started a few months back, very poor planning it would seem

[Harnser]

B.A.S.C. knockers bog off . Find yourself another forum to slag basc off on ,you will proberbly find more support on the tree huggers and anti gun forums .

I am fed up with the knockers of B.A.S.C. coming onto this forum ,just to slag the B.A.S.C. off . surely you can see that B.A.S.C. has a strong support from the true shooting men that this forum represents . Why ? whats it all about . You will never undermine the B.A.S.C. by slagging it off on this particular forum . So go away you silly little people and fester else were . Harnser .

[Glenshooter]

B.A.S.C. knockers bog off . Find yourself another forum to slag basc off on ,you will proberbly find more support on the tree huggers and anti gun forums .

I am fed up with the knockers of B.A.S.C. coming onto this forum ,just to slag the B.A.S.C. off . surely you can see that B.A.S.C. has a strong support from the true shooting men that this forum represents . Why ? whats it all about . You will never undermine the B.A.S.C. by slagging it off on this particular forum . So go away you silly little people and fester else were . Harnser .

 

 

Very well said. Talk about turkeys voting for Christmas. :unsure:

[Imperfection]

Far as i see it-BASC have done nothing different or wrong than what many charities do by asking for donations.Perhaps their timing was wrong with how the economy is,but if you dont ask-you dont know.I get letters asking for money from a particular animal charity (not RSPCA) and i dont feel presured as its my choice to donate or not.

 

Im not a BASC member by the way-im CA.

[Pinkfooty]

well put Eric,

 

I was aware of the brick in the wall appeal and a cracking idea it was to, to ask for 40 quid as a start shows how out of touch the media guys are at BASC HQ, even the NSPCC ask for 2 quid or what ever you can afford, this tends to take on a more humble approach and as a result folk dig deeper as they want to help more, also launch time was ill conceieved with the big BBC children in need appeal and Xmas round the corner everyone is asking and there little left to give, the appeal should have been started a few months back, very poor planning it would seem

 

Pavman,

 

I agree about the timing. However there was a very good reason for the appeal being launched much later than everyone would have liked. It took almost two years to get the Planning Permission sorted out (to do with sight lines at the road access). Regrettable - but I am sure that the BASC-knockers on here would have had even more venom to spit if BASC had launched an appeal to fund a new building without even having Planning Permission for it!!

 

Eric

[dazza]

B.A.S.C. knockers bog off . Find yourself another forum to slag basc off on ,you will proberbly find more support on the tree huggers and anti gun forums .

I am fed up with the knockers of B.A.S.C. coming onto this forum ,just to slag the B.A.S.C. off . surely you can see that B.A.S.C. has a strong support from the true shooting men that this forum represents . Why ? whats it all about . You will never undermine the B.A.S.C. by slagging it off on this particular forum . So go away you silly little people and fester else were . Harnser .

 

:unsure:

[anser2]

Lets get one thing clear , BASC is the best organisation we have to protect our shooting. It makes mistakes and its far from perfect , but compared to the other organisations it is by far the best one to look after our sport.

[ferretman]

i will not be paying it i could not belive it when i seen thay wanted 40 of my hard earned cash i am skint at min anyway.

[andovian]

as quite rightly pointed out by ferretman this subject seems to have gone a bit off track the real issue was the begging letter

basc have always provided a good service but whether a basc supporte/member or not you have to agree the £40 begging letter was not only badly timed due to the current reccession but also a no brainer just blatantly asking for a fixed sum of cash! had I had a letter asking if I would distribute some raffle tickets or be prepared to raise some money through a fundraiser I wouldnt have batted an eyelid and would gladly accommodated the request and helped.

I also agree that there have been some bad comments on here about the basc but what do people expect when they do something as daft as this letter?

[Nial]

David,

 

Will the new centre be reserved purely for BASC use?

 

Has any consideration been given to allowing the likes of the Countryside Alliance to use

the centre for their ends where they don't conflict with the BASC in return for a

(large) donation towards the build?

 

It seems that the BASC is bearing the burden of building this when many different

groups will (hopefully) benefit.

 

 

 

Nial.

[David BASC]

I seriously doubt the CA or any other organization would offer a large donation to BASC.

 

The centre is primarily for BASC as per the details on our web site. To my knowledge there are no plans to franchise to operation - but never say never I guess.

 

I think the letter issue has been done ot death, with some very good feedback from several of you, thank you.

 

As I said earlier, lets learn and move on.

 

David

[Suffolk shooter]

But please remember that this is also a very good time to get building work done as there will probably not be a less expensive time to undertake a capital build such as this.

 

David,

 

I'm a staunch BASC supporter, and have the utmost respect for the helpful and enthusiastic response and feedback I have had from a number of BASC employees at both local and national level over the years, but I'm sorry to burst your bubble on the cost front of the build.

 

I am a Quantity Surveyor in the construction industry and have worked on projects not to dissimilar to that planned. Whilst people seem to think that all builders are desperate for work, the truth is far from it. Yes we (the construction industry as a whole) may indeed reduce our operating margins to ensure continuity of work in the current market place, we are however thwarted by the annual labour cost increase to which those who are part of the national working rule agreement (Most non cowboy builders) are party to. Tie that with ever spiralling costs of basic building materials such as Steel, concrete and timber and you will see that the costs will indeed rise before you even dig a sod out of the ground.

 

The design of the building, whilst modern is completely expensive, in my view. The cost of the special material requirements for acoustic and soundproofing, mechanical and electrical required for recording etc. is also on the increase. The modern day building requirements for SBEM, Part L2, airtesting also contributes to the cost. That along with specialist fees of Architects, structural engineers, building control, health and safety, PQS's none of which IMHO is warranted also contributes to the cost. And if you go down the renewable energy , green route with turbines, green roofs and the like then forget that figure of £750,000 and double it, which means that BASC needs to send a begging lette asking for approx £100 per member.

 

IMO that building should be redesigned to be as basic in structure as required and not the modern arty farty thing that has been shown.

 

Best bet to secure the most competative price is to open the project up for two stage tendering on a design and build basis. You pass the risk on to the contractor, whilst maintaining a degree of competativeness to ensure a proper company gets the job. Get the Architect and PQS to secure the major packages of Steel, Concrete, Timber and Mechincal and Electrical prior to issuing the tender documents.

 

I'd be interested if the job does go ahead in its current format to see the audit trail of the costs and associated fees as a paying BASC member.

 

SS

[David BASC]

Thanks for that SS.

 

We have also been very lucky in having support and guidance from other members who are in the trade as it were. I will pass these comments on to our director of finance who is in charge of the project

 

I am sure that there will be complete openness with regard to the costs and expenditure.

 

Thanks again

 

David

[andovian]

Thanks for that SS.

 

We have also been very lucky in having support and guidance from other members who are in the trade as it were. I will pass these comments on to our director of finance who is in charge of the project

 

I am sure that there will be complete openness with regard to the costs and expenditure.

 

Thanks again

 

David

is that in regard for the £100 begging letter?

[Pinkfooty]

David,

 

I'm a staunch BASC supporter, and have the utmost respect for the helpful and enthusiastic response and feedback I have had from a number of BASC employees at both local and national level over the years, but I'm sorry to burst your bubble on the cost front of the build.

 

I am a Quantity Surveyor

 

 

Suffolk Shooter,

 

I can share with you that this project, since its inception, has been under the personal supervision of the current BASC Council Chairman, Robert Irvine, who is, like you, a Quantity Surveyor. Robert has given a lot of his time to overseeing the development of the project and doing everything to ensure "best value for money". He is an exceptionally approachable guy and would, I am certain, be very happy to discuss with you any aspect of the design and build issues.

 

BASC has recently taken steps to make elected Council members even more accessible to the membership and there is now a dedicated e-mail address for contacting them. If you do want to discuss the project with Robert, e-mail him at council@basc.org.uk

[pavman]

Suffolk Shooter,

 

I can share with you that this project, since its inception, has been under the personal supervision of the current BASC Council Chairman, Robert Irvine, who is, like you, a Quantity Surveyor. Robert has given a lot of his time to overseeing the development of the project and doing everything to ensure "best value for money". He is an exceptionally approachable guy and would, I am certain, be very happy to discuss with you any aspect of the design and build issues.

 

BASC has recently taken steps to make elected Council members even more accessible to the membership and there is now a dedicated e-mail address for contacting them. If you do want to discuss the project with Robert, e-mail him at council@basc.org.uk

 

 

Now you cant say fairer then that