bruno22rf Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 (edited) Am i going mad or am i the only person out here who thinks that paying to shoot vermin is a ridiculous notion?I understand that people may find it hard to find somewhere to shoot but doesnt that mean that the whole basis of having a shotgun for vermin control is flawed in such a case.I think i might put an ad in my local paper asking if any local mechanic fancies servicing my car and paying me for the privilege-its the same surely?.Ive never paid a penny for shooting and i have over 40k acres of land i can use-my reputatiom is all ive ever needed -not my wallet. Edited January 16, 2009 by bruno22rf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeshaw08 Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 I can see where you're coming from, but I reckon this is a great way of introducing people to pigeon shooting. If you took someone whos a noobie onto your land one day and there was naff all to shoot (which lets be honest, is most of the time), most people wouldn't be interested and give up on the idea. Give them a go on a permission and there's plenty to shoot all day, they'll be gaggin to knock around some farms asking for permissions. Plus the way my permissions are going, im quite happy to pay a bit of money for a potentially great day out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruno22rf Posted January 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 (edited) Maybe there are too many people shooting pigeons if your land is mostly free of them? I have nothing at all against the chap running this shooting but i cant help but think that, in the bigger picture, he is playing a potentially disastrous stroke for the shooting side.If an anti was to discover that by any means the pigeons were being protected from say predation or a self imposed season was introduced then the whole idea of the u.k. shooting under a common exemption from licensing would be under threat.We are legally obliged to prove to anyone who asks that shooting is the only way of protecting crops and that all other means have been tried or deemed unsuitable-if any hint of pigeon numbers being nurtured in any way was to become apparent then the antis would hang us out to dry-i think that if such an act was put into practice then it would be under these "pay to shoot pests" situations. Edited January 16, 2009 by bruno22rf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeshaw08 Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 It all seems pretty hypothetical to me! I know what you mean about the 'paying to shoot pests' thing but i'm going to be honest here. I wonder what the percentage of pigeon shooters on here do what they do because it's pest control and they are doing the farmers a favour. Yes it is, and undoubtly it makes a huge difference, but I for one do it because i enjoy the sport, not because I want to save my farmers crops, although obviously that is a postive factor! Let the antis have a pop at us, nothings gonna come of it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lampa Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 (edited) Unfortunately I going to have to disagree with most of what your saying and would say that most of it is utter tosh to put it politely. Like you I have an excellent reputation and have lots of land to shoot over but it does'nt stop me paying for shooting, pigeon or otherwise, does that make me ridiculous because I like to vary my quarry and where I shoot it?, theres absolutely nothing wrong with travelling to a different part of the country to spend a weekend sampling the possibility of some excellent sport on offer and in the company of like minded people, whether it be shooting pigeon,Pheasant, duck etc it does'nt and should'nt matter, vermin or not. Land is virtually impossible to obtain for stalking unless your willing to pay for it, so does that mean the whole basis of having a Rifle for stalking is flawed on basis of that you have to pay for your sport? It does'nt matter whether its vermin or Deer it still has a need to be controlled. In relation to advertising for a mechanic to service your car and then expecting him to pay you for the privilege of doing it has no comparision, a mechanic offers a service and gets paid for servicing and repairing vehicles from each and every customer, a pigeon guide offers a service to the farmer and usually gets absolutely nothing from the farmer for doing so, hence the reason for capitalising by sub letting his shooting and making a few quid to hopefully cover the cost of the cartridges that he uses by helping protect the farmers crop 7 days a week when theres nobody else available to do it. Its the landowner who's in the winning situation here, but remember without their land and assistance there would be no live quarry shooting in existance today, regardless of money exchanging hands, its a relatively small price to pay for your own enjoyment and that of others. What you also say about Will Beasley playing a potentially disasterous stroke for the shooting side is utter nonsense and unfounded, you are also implying that other embassadors in the pigeon shooting community and not forgetting every Sporting estate or agent who offer sport for money in respect of control, culling or conservation is also contributing to what you describe as a disasterous stroke. Paying for pigeon shooting as a method of control or paying to shoot deer is no different whatsoever, your not paying for the privilege to shoot something that genuinely does'nt need controlling, and no matter which way you slice it the Anti's are not going to agree with any of them, as they are to damned stupid and to realise the fundamental reasons behind control. Edited January 16, 2009 by lampa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starlight32 Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 There is a business for every demand....... Even a guy up my way who takes people on guided pike fishing day's at 120 quid a head. There is always someone who will pay for a service to try and get the best out of it for the day for the minimum of effort. There is large acreage's of rape around my neck of the woods and have'nt had a farmer yet who refuses you shooting keeping the pigeons off. Most of the pigeon shooting guides dont get the paying punter any more shooting than the rest of us who use our wits- partricularly over rape winter time and i defy anyone to proove that. What I like is how shooting providers have the saying...... 'Not a lot of birds were shot but all the guns had a throughly enjoyable day' What a load of tosh if you ain't shooting you have'nt enjoyed it full stop..... Went on a 150 bird driven day the other day with my brother.... Total birds 58.. Keeper extremely off hand to everyone until it was his bit of the day with the golden palmshake at the end? you know what that is don't you all? Well my palm was empty and so was my Brother's....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruno22rf Posted January 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 Dear lampa-i have no intention of implying that you or any other gun is rididulous if you pay for most shooting-my concerns are solely based on pigeon shooting alone and the precarious position that we in the uk are in (by the way-i cannot comment on the pros and cons/moral position of shooting anything other than vermin because i have never felt the urge to shoot game).I hold my hands up to playing devils advocate when i posted this and am suprised at the initial lack of response in defending this type of vermin control.However,i can honestly say that if i were ever in a position whereby i had no choice but to pay to shoot some farmers vermin (and lets not forget that landowners have an obligation to prevent vermin on their land spreading to other property)-i would quit shooting and take up knitting(until thats banned under health and safety regs.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lister1 Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 Being able to pay for a shoot does give people the opportunity to shoot in a different area. If say you lived in Yorkshire and fancied a weekend away then you can pay to shoot and are then guaranteed to get some shooting in oxfordshire. Or perhaps you are new to the area and you want to do some shooting atleast it then gets you into the shooting community. But they are the only reasons i can see to have to pay. well except if your rich and lazy and can't be bothered to seek out your own land to shoot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
here iam Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 I find with land owners they do not want total strangers on their land and you get on by word of mouth and doing a good job all farmers Know each other also a lot of farmers i have spoke to have had bad experiances with poachers, lurcher men , just roaming on their fields .Insurance and word of mouth face to face contact definatley works if paying is the only way to get some shooting so be it wether its vermin or game i would not let total strangers in my back garden until i was convinced they were insured and safe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chippy18 Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 (edited) I have permission on 3 farms totalling around 2k acres and if I ever tried to make it clear to any of the farmers what a favour I was doing them, I would get a very swift boot up the jacks and told never to come back. OK at the end of the day yes they get their pests problem controlled, but I don't know what its like your way but if I was to pack in there would be 1 hell of a line of people ready to jump in. Farmers or any land owner no matter how much of a good reputation you have are still taking a chance letting anyone walk around their land armed. I don't actually pay anything to the farmers or at least not actual cash. But I still as and when my business allows help out, be it by a few repairs here and there or as I always do helping to the best of my ability at Harvest time. So I suppose yes I do pay for my shooting and I really have no problems with it. Permission is very hard to find in some areas and I know untold people who do pay even just to shoot vermin as its put, I personally think that I am being done a favour by the farmers for letting me on their land and if I was ever in the position of not having land I would gladly pay to do something I enjoy. Cheers Edited January 20, 2009 by chippy18 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 my only view on this is I have a few large local farms no one gets to shoot unless you pay as the guides go round paying them per acre for the rights. They then wait till they have a severe vermin problem before putting guns on the land so they have a good day. On one hand you can't fault the farmer for making the cash but on the other hand the more it happens the less land the freebie shooter offering a service to the farmer has to go after. On the other side I do know they've been kicked off land because of the pigeon damage that they weren't controlling properly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Posted January 19, 2009 Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 As someone who is new to the sport I am one of those willing to pay for the odd day, how else am I to learn or experince a days pigeon shooting? None of my friends shoot and I am unable to commit to a farmer in providing vermin control on a regualr basis, that is if I could get permission in the South East. Living just outside London finding a permission is near impossible,I believe others who live in the Surrey/Sussex or Hampshire area would agree with me on this. I am not one to beg people to take me shooting so am left with no option but to pay for the odd days shooting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncan Posted January 19, 2009 Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 i belong to a pigeon and wildfowling club , i pay £60 a year and that includes my BASC membership .We have 14 farms and one large country estate on the books , i think that is good value for the money Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmyk Posted January 19, 2009 Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 Right...I'm going to have to start off by confessing a personal interest, having just booked a day out with the aforementioned Mr Beasley. One thing that hasn't been said so far is that if you have done the hard work and secured your permission, you have to be prepared to work just as hard to keep it. What pigeon guides and sporting agents provide is flexibility - I can arrange a day shooting with a guide on whatever day suits me (within reason). For that convenience I have to pay a fee. By all accounts those shooters that have earned permissions need to be prepared to respond to the farmers demands - if you offer a pest control service, you need to actively control the pests not just turn up when you fancy it or only when the sun's out. So what's worse - paying an agent to organise a days shooting at your convenience (where all parties benefit) or putting in the long hours knocking on doors only to let the farmer down when he needs you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davecooper1 Posted January 19, 2009 Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 have to agree with every body on this i have land were i shoot and dont pay but i belong to a club we have 50 farms aprox 30 thirty thousand acres it works out about 1.90p a week 352 days if i wanted to go every day its not the price of a pint of larger to do the sport i love doing so mate your definatley on a looser with the moral of this is when i go out i only drink 9pints lager instead 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highlander Posted January 19, 2009 Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 Mmmm guy registers on here and within what 7 days is making a point of knocking the site sponsors??? Claims to have over 40k acres to shoot over which I’m willing to bet unless he’s at it full time he doesn’t do it very well. Never paid a penny for his shooting...doesn’t strike me as being very experienced just mean. Calls Woodpigeon ‘vermin’ when we all know they offer the finest of shooting sport. Farmers are always very reluctant to part with money especially for pest control so maybe pigeon guides offer the best option; clients pay, farmer gets job done, guide makes a living so everyones happy. Well apart from Woody of course! Argument is almost anti shooting but maybe I’m just being paranoid and he’s just a mate of Deeko’s Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tobyb525 Posted January 19, 2009 Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 i belong to a pigeon and wildfowling club , i pay £60 a year and that includes my BASC membership .We have 14 farms and one large country estate on the books , i think that is good value for the money Which clubs that? I've been looking for a pigeon/wildfowling club for a while now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted January 20, 2009 Report Share Posted January 20, 2009 Am i going mad or am i the only person out here who thinks that paying to shoot vermin is a ridiculous notion?I understand that people may find it hard to find somewhere to shoot but doesnt that mean that the whole basis of having a shotgun for vermin control is flawed in such a case.I think i might put an ad in my local paper asking if any local mechanic fancies servicing my car and paying me for the privilege-its the same surely?.Ive never paid a penny for shooting and i have over 40k acres of land i can use-my reputatiom is all ive ever needed -not my wallet. Yes your mad, you pay for shooting "vermin" (an ill educated term for pigeon) each and every time you go ! unless of course the farmer who seemingly owes YOU, pays for your gun, your insurance, travel costs, carts, and decoying gear,(though he wont be will he?) Your post has to go down as one of the most blatant bit of bashing of Will and his family I have ever come across and, equally lacks understanding of the main purpose of paying? be it deer, pigeon, duck, pheasant or whatever, and that's variety and getting out and going somewhere different, I could if not for work go pigeon shooting seven days a week,on land ranging from 10 Min's away to 75 miles, yet I still like the occasional trip down to Wills? why because I CAN and I WANT to end of. oh and welcome to the forum I look forward to further bashing. cheers KW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lampa Posted January 20, 2009 Report Share Posted January 20, 2009 (edited) Exactly KW! but not only is he bashing Will and his family, he is also branding other pigeon guides operating in this country not to mention anybody else who offers any form of fieldsport in exchange for payment. Personally to me Pigeon = Poor mans Grouse and could never be classed as vermin due to the respect its given by the challenges it places on your fieldcraft and knowledge in order to be successful outwitting it. Edited January 20, 2009 by lampa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonno 357 Posted January 20, 2009 Report Share Posted January 20, 2009 (edited) Exactly KW! but not only is he bashing Will and his family, he is also branding other pigeon guides operating in this country not to mention anybody else who offers any form of fieldsport in exchange for payment. Personally to me Pigeon = Poor mans Grouse and could never be classed as vermin due to the respect its given by the challenges it places on your fieldcraft and knowledge in order to be successful outwitting it. Who is this Will( William ?) and his family and were is he beeing bashed and can anyone bash him ? Is there undertones of a plot to bash a Willy and the family? confused to say the least Jonno Edited January 20, 2009 by jonno 357 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrispti Posted January 20, 2009 Report Share Posted January 20, 2009 Who is this Will( William ?) and his family and were is he beeing bashed and can anyone bash him ? Is there undertones of a plot to bash a Willy and the family? confused to say the least Jonno POSTED ON BEHALF OF WILL BEASLEY. Currently we have a vast amount of Pigeons hammering the Rape in Oxfordshire. A couple of years ago we ran a special offer for Forum members (and their friends who may not be PW members!) who fancied a go down here with us, and the offer is re-opening as of now!! Last time we did this we had a lot of PW members come over and many of them had some great action and it was a real success. The Special offer price per person is £40 per day (reduced from £70). This is for the DIY day where you need to bring all your own gear and set yourself up. I will be in attendance to show you where to setup and I'll give you as much help as possible to get you to the spot if you dont have a 4x4 vehicle so you wont have to worry about hauling all your gear out on foot. There's mental amounts of Pigeons on about 30,000 acres of Rape that we control so no shortage of birds whatsoever!! And it wont be long until the Pheasant season is over so I can also get you in the woods for a bit of roost shooting as well at the end of the day. If you fancy a blast then either send me a Private Message on here or just give me a bell on ................or ................and I'll get your days sport booked. All the best, Will Beasley. Thames Valley Pigeon Shooting www.pigeonshooter.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deako Posted January 20, 2009 Report Share Posted January 20, 2009 Highlander, Nothing to do with me. Having guided myself for several years, I was more than happy to charge our Italian clients up to £200 per man per day to shoot around 30 pigeons each. I stopped guiding because its BLOODY HARD WORK! For the effort he puts in, the massive miles he puts in, and the sheer graft of the job, rest assured, if I was in Wills shoes, I'd be charging £150 per gun per day. We may be competitors in other businesses but Will and I can still share a beer at the game fairs without falling out these days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruno22rf Posted January 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 (edited) Dear Highlander -let me answer your points one at a time if i may- my question was not aimed at any one individual in particular and i had no idea that the shooting advertised was being offered by the site sponser-it would not however, have prevented me posting the thread.(I have not recieved any complaints from the gentleman in question so i assume that he has the decency to allow other people their opinions) No matter how "sporting" a pigeon may be it is vermin if you look up the meaning of the word. I do not "claim" to have 40k acres-i have and am fairly sure that i could increase this area with little or no problem. As for not doing a very good job-maybe im the worst goddam pigeon shooter in the world-im just waiting for a complaint to let me know. Because i dont pay for my shooting im not very experienced?-I fail to see the connection,sir, but just to put your mind at rest-ive been shooting 2 months short of 33 years and have been an instructer in my time.(however-if you feel that you know something that i dont then please let me know cos im allways willing to listen/learn) Mean-if you only knew me you would delete that word from your thread. And lastly comes the hint that my post may be anti-shooting-did you read it properly and understand my concerns-if we dont start looking very carefully at what we do and discuss said matters in a frank and fair manner(without wasting everyones time by pointlessly abusing people who may have opinions that differ from our own) then we might as well quit now-bruno. Edited January 21, 2009 by bruno22rf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonno 357 Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 Well said there sir Far too much bashing of people with opinions that don't comply with the madding crowd Jonno Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonydoe Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 Well it's easy. If you do not want to pay for it don't ! I for one have been to Will's last week for 2 days and shall be going back for 4 days in April. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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