Newspaper vendor who died at G20 riots

[V8landy]

The police of this country need to to re group and get back to their purpose ( if they can still remember what it is)

 

[KW

 

Helping old ladies across the road, and clipping young scallies around the ear!

 

 

Bring back the ALL the armed forces from overseas and put them to some REAL use in the UK.

[Bagsy]

I forgot but your idiocy reminded me? and hey I had to respond eh! plod on plod on suck suck

 

KW

 

Kdubya,

 

With respect, you come across as being unnecessarily bullish and aggressive in some of your responses to posts on this thread. It appears that those who's observations, thoughts or questions don't tally with your own are not entitled to an opinion in your vision of free speech you mentioned.

 

Just an observation which, I should add, may of course be totally wrong.

 

Nothing any of us say or think on here will make a blind bit of difference to the outcome, so why fall out?

[kdubya]

Kdubya,

 

With respect, you come across as being unnecessarily bullish and aggressive in some of your responses to posts on this thread. It appears that those who's observations, thoughts or questions don't tally with your own are not entitled to an opinion in your vision of free speech you mentioned.

 

Just an observation which, I should add, may of course be totally wrong.

 

Nothing any of us say or think on here will make a blind bit of difference to the outcome, so why fall out?

 

those who have actually met me will hopefully disagree, my stance may come across as bullish ( don't get the aggressive bit) but it comes from a hatred of lies and deceit, and the disdain of those who seek to support the same , nothing more nothing less, perhaps it was as a result of being brought up to respect right from wrong, something lacking in society today and unfortunately equally lacking from those who should champion that ideal?

 

The bit we disagree on is the "it wont make a blind bit of difference" that is why we are were we are today! perhaps if more would openly challenge rather than accept sheepishly we may have what we used to have, IE a police force that we could trust and respect, not fear and and consider somewhat corrupt! ( operation lancet was a corker)

 

cheers KW

[markbivvy]

looks like it was not on isolated offence

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7999277.stm

[Carter59]

looks like it was not on isolated offence

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7999277.stm

 

To be fair, she was fronting up to the officer and swearing at him. She was also told to *get back* three times before she was struck.

 

A little rough, perhaps, but it looks a fair cop to me ...............

[kdubya]

To be fair, she was fronting up to the officer and swearing at him. She was also told to *get back* three times before she was struck.

 

A little rough, perhaps, but it looks a fair cop to me ...............

 

 

had someone been "fronting up and swearing" at you and you swiped him or her, the same cop who did this would have arrested you for assault no ifs or buts, and your ticket removed without thought? its called double standards, and this country is full of them

 

KW

[Gordon R]

I don't agree with what the Policeman did, but the woman has allegedly gone to Max Clifford. This does not seem to be the action of an innocent member of the public and has caused me to wonder whether she engineered the whole thing.

[Harnser]

Cor ,you started something here Baldrick .

 

Harnser .

[Carter59]

had someone been "fronting up and swearing" at you and you swiped him or her, the same cop who did this would have arrested you for assault no ifs or buts, and your ticket removed without thought? its called double standards, and this country is full of them

 

 

If a TSG riot cop ..... built like a brick @@@@house ..... tells you to *get back* three times, it would be wise to comply, don't you think?

 

Nobody died here. The lady in question is apparently well enough to engage a publicist and sell her story to the press.

[kdubya]

If a TSG riot cop ..... built like a brick @@@@house ..... tells you to *get back* three times, it would be wise to comply, don't you think?

 

Nobody died here. The lady in question is apparently well enough to engage a publicist and sell her story to the press.

 

 

not the point, a tsg riot cop should be able to take a bit more than verbal abuse before he lashes out.he is supposed to be trained to deal with it, he is just another example of a uniformed thug,

 

KW

[col1888]

KW

 

So a TSG cop should be able to take a bit more abuse ! Why should he ? If you are there to protest peacefully why are you abusing the police ? He is trained to deal with this abuse. ******** ! He is trained to arrest her for a public order offence. But in large scale disorder situations, arrest strategies are set by Gold/Silver commanders. As has been pointed out to you numerous times , to arrest for every minor offence committed in incidents such as this would remove virtually every officer from the streets, thus letting the protestors loose to do what they want ! Hence why the tactic is to move people on, contain them etc and reasonable force is used to achieve this. If a cop tells you three times to move and you don't, then expect to be moved ! But i'm sure you will tell me i'm wrong ! But heh i'm just doing as i'm taught to !!

 

Col

[Pedro]

not the point, a tsg riot cop should be able to take a bit more than verbal abuse before he lashes out.he is supposed to be trained to deal with it, he is just another example of a uniformed thug,

 

KW

 

You've obviously got something againt the old bill.

 

 

I did 4 years on the TSG and never once "lashed out", nor would I now.

 

I take exception that you tar everyone with the same brush.

 

Until you've been in that situation, I'd suggest you shut up.

 

There's going to be a masive backlash that bites the MPS on the **** big style - I can't wait!

 

P.

[poontang]

KW

 

So a TSG cop should be able to take a bit more abuse ! Why should he ? If you are there to protest peacefully why are you abusing the police ? He is trained to deal with this abuse. ******** ! He is trained to arrest her for a public order offence. But in large scale disorder situations, arrest strategies are set by Gold/Silver commanders. As has been pointed out to you numerous times , to arrest for every minor offence committed in incidents such as this would remove virtually every officer from the streets, thus letting the protestors loose to do what they want ! Hence why the tactic is to move people on, contain them etc and reasonable force is used to achieve this. If a cop tells you three times to move and you don't, then expect to be moved ! But i'm sure you will tell me i'm wrong ! But heh i'm just doing as i'm taught to !!

 

Col

 

 

This, i believe, is where both these recent events will be decided.

Is striking someone across the face when faced with a verbal threat reasonable?

Is pushing a man to the ground when he's walking away with his hands in his pockets reasonable?

 

My understanding of 'reasonable force' is a PROPORTIONATE response to the threat.

 

It would be totally unfair to label the whole police service as uniformed thugs due to the actions of a few. Unfortunately it's always the few who make the headlines.

[magnamaniac]

KW

 

So a TSG cop should be able to take a bit more abuse ! Why should he ? If you are there to protest peacefully why are you abusing the police ? He is trained to deal with this abuse. ******** ! He is trained to arrest her for a public order offence. But in large scale disorder situations, arrest strategies are set by Gold/Silver commanders. As has been pointed out to you numerous times , to arrest for every minor offence committed in incidents such as this would remove virtually every officer from the streets, thus letting the protestors loose to do what they want ! Hence why the tactic is to move people on, contain them etc and reasonable force is used to achieve this. If a cop tells you three times to move and you don't, then expect to be moved ! But i'm sure you will tell me i'm wrong ! But heh i'm just doing as i'm taught to !!

 

Col

 

 

You've obviously got something againt the old bill.

 

 

I did 4 years on the TSG and never once "lashed out", nor would I now.

 

I take exception that you tar everyone with the same brush.

 

Until you've been in that situation, I'd suggest you shut up.

 

There's going to be a masive backlash that bites the MPS on the **** big style - I can't wait!

 

P.

 

I think the whole situation comes from the training and lack of appropriate screening of new officers. I see it now after 18 years in uniform. It seems the powers that be want bums on seats not good quality officers with a broad background in life experiance to give them the steady hand thats lacking.

 

I look at the new prison officers now and I laugh, theirs so young 17 1/2 is no age to be a supervisior of people who have broken the law I don't respect them, so why would they. Sometimes it feels like bring your kid to work day.

 

This, i believe, is where both these recent events will be decided.

Is striking someone across the face when faced with a verbal threat reasonable?

Is pushing a man to the ground when he's walking away with his hands in his pockets reasonable?

 

My understanding of 'reasonable force' is a PROPORTIONATE response to the threat.

 

It would be totally unfair to label the whole police service as uniformed thugs due to the actions of a few. Unfortunately it's always the few who make the headlines.

 

Its hard for someone who has never trained deal with a tactical situation like what we saw at the G20. If the person had not died it would have never made the news, thats the simple truth. If your told to clear an area you clear it, and they were corraling the demonstartors and if your caught up in the area tough you there until the police decide to disperse you. I feel sorry for the family, and his death is a tragedy pure and simple, but I would be very surprised if the push had anything to do with his death. But it will not save that officers career.

 

Reasonable is different to proportional response. Appropriate would be what is required to get the job done, but would have to be justified, a proportional response would have been to arrest him, but has been said their is never enough police to go around so couldn't be done.

 

The G20 was always going to be a flash point, the media stoked the fire and a small minority have ruined what would have been a peaceful demonstration.

 

Woody

[Devilishdave]

The police are there to uphold law and order. The law and order they uphold is dictated by the government that we as a majority democraticly voted in. If people think thye are above the law and try to mess the police about then they should expect to get moved out of the way. People need to start taking responsability for their own actions. Had this indavidual not been provoking the police he wouldn't have been pushed over. Had he a more healthy lifestyle he probably wouldn't have had a heart attack a few hours later.

 

Man up and take responsability for your own action is the key, too much left wing sniveling in this country.

 

Dave

Edited April 17, 2009 by Devilishdave

[toka_shigazu]

Having seen more footage of the second incident involving the female it seems there were a large number of Police Community Support Officers present in the line that day, I know in the area I am from they are not used as front line officers for any incident where they could come into conflict [they haven't had any training and they do not carry a baton, cuffs or cs - the case of the one who was stabbed when helping to evict someone highlighted them being put into a conflict situation]

To the public it may look like they are the same, and they are facing a line of uniformed officers, but to the trained police officers in that line it will just mean they are facing added pressure; not only having to keep an eye on, and deal with what is happening in front of them but then also have to watch what is happening in front of the PCSO's as well - this would mean a greater level of force may be deemed proportionate and necessary to protect not only themselves but also the PCSO's.

Again these are decisions of senior management on the day, and government when thinking about numbers. When the wheel comes off and you need police officers to deal with it you may not have enough and resort to using ill trained PCSO's. [who otherwise do a very good job]

[Baldrick]

Cor ,you started something here Baldrick .

 

Harnser .

 

Yes, sorry about that... Whilst I'm all for healthy discussion, my views on have mellowed since I began this thread, having read every bit of press coverage available to me about Tomlinson's death, and the TSG officer twatting that trollop.

 

The Telegraph is running a piece on the late Sir Clement Freud. I liked his statement, "I think our police are excellent, probably because I have not done anything that has occasioned being beaten up by these good men."

[al4x]

while these incidents are obviously bad more so to my mind that the officers have done it in full view of cameras and CCTV, were I a commanding officer doing the initial briefing it would be drummed into them all over and over again that anything they did would be filmed.

 

On the other hand how much abuse does an officer have to take? ok the reaction looks like an over reaction but if they just stand back and take it then so more and more people in the crowd are going to start stepping up the levels of abuse and sdo the situation deteriorates. Look at Thailand we could have descended into that sort of chaos so to me it looks like the police here are actually doing a pretty good job. Ok you get the odd incident like these two which don't look good but what normal person just keeps going at a policeman until he reacts which is exactly what that cow wanted, hence her going straight to that leach Max Clifford. Personally if they had a batton with something like an electric cattle prod on the end they wouldn't need to hit people with it they could just let them walk into it job done.

[kdubya]

You've obviously got something againt the old bill.

 

 

I did 4 years on the TSG and never once "lashed out", nor would I now.

 

I take exception that you tar everyone with the same brush.

 

Until you've been in that situation, I'd suggest you shut up.

 

There's going to be a masive backlash that bites the MPS on the **** big style - I can't wait!

 

P.

 

I have nothing against the old bill as such I respect what should be its values and its conception , ie to protect and serve,

If you can actually read? you will note I never tarred every one, I would suggest most coppers are honest and upstanding chaps, but like it or not some are not, I referred to "another" thug in uniform, that is a singleton term not plural, so perhaps rather than asking me to "shut up" I would suggest you start to listen, but then I forgot, that means reasoning, is that still allowed today?or does it come from the mentality I must be obeyed? fact is as I stated had Joe public slapped this woman for her "abuse" they would have been arrested sharpish and charged with assault, because a copper does it, its defended, we all are supposed to sing to the same hymn sheet,but as we know rules only work if you want them to.

 

KW

[al4x]

oh dear this isn't going to go away too fast, surely the push couldn't cause enough internal bleeding to kill him

[Blackbart]

And the plot thickens.The second autopsy showed he died of an abdominal injury and not a heart attack And the "innocent" police officer has been interviewed under caution for manslaughter.

 

Strange that they would find a heart attack as the cause and then find an abdominal injury and internal bleeding as the real cause after an independant autopsy.Could you realy miss that on the first autopsy ?

[jammie*dodger]

Link here http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8004222.stm for anyone that wants to read about it.

[col1888]

So wasn't the first autopsy independant then ? Who's to say the second one is right and the first wrong ? Or the other way round ? Also there has just been an interview with a Vascular consultant on the news. He stated that the abdominal injury COULD have been caused by the push but also it COULD have been caused by his fall round the corner after he got up or from those who used CPR to try and resus Mr Tomlinson. I think to tell the truth we will never know for sure, but we all agree it is an unfortunate set of circumstances. I know some people will want the police officer publicly lynching for this but spare a thought for the bloke , no police officer goes out to kill anyone , and he must be feeling dreadful !

 

Col

[Blackbart]

So wasn't the first autopsy independant then ? Who's to say the second one is right and the first wrong ? Or the other way round ? Also there has just been an interview with a Vascular consultant on the news. He stated that the abdominal injury COULD have been caused by the push but also it COULD have been caused by his fall round the corner after he got up or from those who used CPR to try and resus Mr Tomlinson. I think to tell the truth we will never know for sure, but we all agree it is an unfortunate set of circumstances. I know some people will want the police officer publicly lynching for this but spare a thought for the bloke , no police officer goes out to kill anyone , and he must be feeling dreadful !

 

Col

 

All if's and but's.Maybe that policeman is too agressive,maybe tomlinson wasnt the first or last he assaulted that day.There was 145 complaints made against the police that DAY ! And 70 of them were of assault by police !I dont realy feel for the policeman as he is what is wrong with some members of the force.He abused his position and the only thing he did wrong in the eyes of most police(especially on here)is he got caught on camera doing it.

Like the foxhunting protest...Lots of people got whacked off over zelous hyped up police only this time one of them may have killed someone and some people seem to think he should get away with it because he had a uniform on.He may be feeling dreadful and then again he may not.

[col1888]

So its all ifs and buts , but doesn't that work the other way too ! No probably not, lets lynch the guy anyway ! Ask most police officers and they will tell you they have had a complaint, a lot for assault or use of force, many because people think we should use far more comfortable handcuffs. The problem is the public think they can kick off, gob off and its alright, but when they get caught, please be nice to me officer i'm innocent ! Unfortunately if you resist or struggle then officers use whatever force is NECESSARY to gain compliance.