Is a fox..... vermin

[2-dead-in-the-air]

My fac has '.17 hmr vermin control, .222 fox control, .243 deer & fox control.'

 

So can I shoot a fox with the 17 hmr ?

[kyska]

My fac has '.17 hmr vermin control, .222 fox control, .243 deer & fox control.'

 

So can I shoot a fox with the 17 hmr ?

 

My force (leicestershire) don't count fox as vermin per se, it needs to be specific on the FAC.

 

Mine reads 'Vermin and ground game, Fox' etc

Edited May 18, 2010 by kyska

[allthegearandnoidea]

does it say 'and any other legal quarry'?

 

My force (and BASC) says you can if it has these words.

Edited May 18, 2010 by allthegearandnoidea

[kyska]

does it say 'and any other legal quarry'?

 

Mine does, but they made it clear at interview I need fox specifically, but that maybe because of the calibre restriction for fox in Leices

Edited May 18, 2010 by kyska

[ST3V3]

 

More so since they have stipulated fox on your others

[Mr_Logic]

Mine does, but they made it clear at interview I need fox specifically, but that maybe because of the calibre restriction for fox in Leices

Unfortunately for them, they cannot do that.

 

The law is wonderfully specific for once. The debate about what you can use to kill fox legally consists of two things:

 

1. What is specified by laws other than firearms law

2. What is specified by firearms Acts.

 

There is NO 3. What your FEO says. In Law, your FEO's word counts for diddly squat. That means two things - firstly, if you commit an offence you can never hide behind a chat you had with them, but also secondly, that they cannot make up the law as they go along. Neither can the Firearms Department, or their lawyers, or the CHief of Police.

 

However, what the Police CAN do is to add conditions to your FAC. There is no limit on law as to what these might be, but there IS a penalty which means that if you don't comply, you're in the ****.

 

In the case of Humans Vs Charlie Fox, there is little in legislation, and nothing specific. Therefore, normal animal cruelty stuff applies (i.e. you can't be cruel etc), and the firearms bit has one relevant section, which is the section on Conditions.

 

Please note, while the HO Guidelines comment, they are NOT Statute, you are NOT expected to read them, they are NOT referenced by law. Therefore what is contained within them has no bearing on the legality or otherwise of shooting foxes with rifles not specifically conditioned for this purpose.

 

Thus, we have established that only the Conditions on your FAC govern the calibre(s) you may or may not use. The area of this debate is twofold:

 

1. Is a fox vermin?

2. Is a fox 'any other legal quarry'?

 

Section 1 - Most likely it is. However, if your FAC also says a rifle for fox specifically, then it could be argued that the lack of 'fox' next to, say, your HMR IMPLIES that you don't have permission - since on a rifle so conditioned, it is there.

 

Section 2 - Absolutely it is. There is no debate here - there is nothing in law preventing you using a .22LR or whatever on Charlie, therefore a fox IS legal quarry. This is non-negotiable, it cannot be overridden by anyone. IF that is what is on the FAC, then YES YOU CAN shoot foxes with that rifle. It's a simple fact, the Police have no argument.

 

Their argument stems from the purpose a rifle is issued - there is Good Reason, and there is Permissible Use, and the two are not the same. For example, if my Good Reason for a .223 is fox shooting, chances are, I can also use that for rabbit shooting. My Good Reason is fox control, my Permissible Use is fox and rabbit control. On a day-to-day basis, this makes no difference to anyone. But consider this - if I have my 223 for fox, and lose my fox permission, when I come to renewal, they'll be entitled to remove that rifle from me, even if I shoot rabbits with it, because I no longer have Good Reason.

 

Clearly, the Forces who get huffy about fox shooting have blurred the distinction that exists here. It easy enough to do - the term Permissible Use is not used in legislation (I believe it should be). Good Reason is though.

 

Please note, this post is NOT advocating the shooting of foxes with rimfires, it is simply stating legal fact. Whether or not you should use HMR on a fox is another, separate debate.

[garyb]

Just shoot it!

 

Who's to know - its a perfectly legal and capable calibre for short range fox control where other larger centrefires may not be suitable.

[kyska]

So the Police are also not legally entitled to have told me that I have to use a centerfire for fox? That was the issue regarding calibre restriction?

 

Unfortunately for them, they cannot do that.

 

The law is wonderfully specific for once. The debate about what you can use to kill fox legally consists of two things:

 

1. What is specified by laws other than firearms law

2. What is specified by firearms Acts.

 

There is NO 3. What your FEO says. In Law, your FEO's word counts for diddly squat. That means two things - firstly, if you commit an offence you can never hide behind a chat you had with them, but also secondly, that they cannot make up the law as they go along. Neither can the Firearms Department, or their lawyers, or the CHief of Police.

 

However, what the Police CAN do is to add conditions to your FAC. There is no limit on law as to what these might be, but there IS a penalty which means that if you don't comply, you're in the ****.

 

In the case of Humans Vs Charlie Fox, there is little in legislation, and nothing specific. Therefore, normal animal cruelty stuff applies (i.e. you can't be cruel etc), and the firearms bit has one relevant section, which is the section on Conditions.

 

Please note, while the HO Guidelines comment, they are NOT Statute, you are NOT expected to read them, they are NOT referenced by law. Therefore what is contained within them has no bearing on the legality or otherwise of shooting foxes with rifles not specifically conditioned for this purpose.

 

Thus, we have established that only the Conditions on your FAC govern the calibre(s) you may or may not use. The area of this debate is twofold:

 

1. Is a fox vermin?

2. Is a fox 'any other legal quarry'?

 

Section 1 - Most likely it is. However, if your FAC also says a rifle for fox specifically, then it could be argued that the lack of 'fox' next to, say, your HMR IMPLIES that you don't have permission - since on a rifle so conditioned, it is there.

 

Section 2 - Absolutely it is. There is no debate here - there is nothing in law preventing you using a .22LR or whatever on Charlie, therefore a fox IS legal quarry. This is non-negotiable, it cannot be overridden by anyone. IF that is what is on the FAC, then YES YOU CAN shoot foxes with that rifle. It's a simple fact, the Police have no argument.

 

Their argument stems from the purpose a rifle is issued - there is Good Reason, and there is Permissible Use, and the two are not the same. For example, if my Good Reason for a .223 is fox shooting, chances are, I can also use that for rabbit shooting. My Good Reason is fox control, my Permissible Use is fox and rabbit control. On a day-to-day basis, this makes no difference to anyone. But consider this - if I have my 223 for fox, and lose my fox permission, when I come to renewal, they'll be entitled to remove that rifle from me, even if I shoot rabbits with it, because I no longer have Good Reason.

 

Clearly, the Forces who get huffy about fox shooting have blurred the distinction that exists here. It easy enough to do - the term Permissible Use is not used in legislation (I believe it should be). Good Reason is though.

 

Please note, this post is NOT advocating the shooting of foxes with rimfires, it is simply stating legal fact. Whether or not you should use HMR on a fox is another, separate debate.

[al4x]

Just shoot it!

 

Who's to know - its a perfectly legal and capable calibre for short range fox control where other larger centrefires may not be suitable.

 

 

who is to know, who is to question it and who is to argue whether fox is vermin anyway. Herts include it as vermin but also when you go fox specific they then specify it. Its all bull why should my HMR be suitable in Herts yet yours not suitable, one thing is for sure I cannot see anyone being prosecuted for it unless as said you go wounding them and getting caught that way. How it would stand up under clse examination when you could provide other people with fox listed against their HMR is beyond me. So basically do as Gary suggests and personally I wouldn't ask them for clarification as that opens the door to saying no

[garyb]

I'd rather see a fox shot with a HMR, than a centrefire calibre which is potentially unsuitable for the area / land - just because the police can't get together and make their minds up on the wording of FAC's across the entire nation.

[al4x]

can't imagine what you mean

[Shotgunspud]

it needs to say fox on it mate.

[CharlieT]

You can go by Mr. Logic's logic, which is merely his take on the matter and shoot whatever or you can speak to your licensing manager who issued your fac.

 

I quite value my fac and the rapport I have with my licensing manager. I have built up a very good working relationship with him over the years and I would suggest you speak with yours and clarify the matter and thus start to build up a relationship with him. You will find that the more effort you put into discussing your requirements with him the more accommodating he will become.

 

Follow all the back room lawyers advice given on here if you so wish, it's your fac and your future dealings with the licensing department at stake but remember that it's your fac on the line not theirs.

 

However to answer your question, as they have specifically named fox against some of your rifles I would take that to mean they most definitely are not conditioning you to shoot fox where fox is not specified.

[Marty J]

I've got a .22 and a .223 on my ticket and both are down as "shall be used for vermin shooting". Does that mean I can't take foxes?

[Beardo]

I've got a .22 and a .223 on my ticket and both are down as "shall be used for vermin shooting". Does that mean I can't take foxes?

 

depends on what your constabulary count as vermin

[al4x]

depends on what your constabulary count as vermin

 

 

and this is why its all bullocks, its purely FEO's making it up as they go along which is seriously wrong in this day and age. Herts count them as vermin and I'm pretty sure the dictionary counts them as vermin so why can't there just be one set of rules. I've even got a mate with vermin including fox written on his

[mosa]

didnt look through all the posts but northumbria regard them as vermin so from my .22, .17hmr, .223 to .243 any can be used

[digit]

I had my HMR down for vermin and my 22/250 was down for fox, i got in contact with my feo about this and was told with rimfires foxes come under vermin but it has to state fox with centrefires

[barrelsniffer]

I recently was talking about similar conditions..the lawful quarry..

 

Ive had my FAC now almost 15 yrs..and like the rest of the shooters in the uk,who have this condition,, i would like the condition of lawful quarry put on, so when i get home in june will be enquiring..but as im with cheshire not building my hopes up.

Its wrong that i can take a mate foxing on my land or he take me.we both have same cal rifles..he can shoot any lawful quarry..so if the farmer says i also want the rabbits shooting..yes with 223 or whatever cal.. my mate can yet i cant..all because of the condition on my 223.

It should all be the same country wide not where you live like the NHS lottery postcode.

 

Funny a mate in cheshire asked about shot placement on a deer with ref to them stating he has a mentor..yet he can shoot fox without a mentor..which is critical as he knows..but cheshire said it doesnt matter where you shoot a fox as its VERMIN..now thats wrong and every shot on a animal should be well placed for a clean kill..

 

Even funnier is ive just gone on a other forum and had a mess of a Chap from BASC saying that in the last week what im after ,the condition lawful quarry...and cheshire

 

He just sent this.......

 

I don't know where you are with your complaint about Cheshire so far, but you may find that things have changed in the last week or two - in your favour

 

So we will see when im home...but still conditions should be country wide and same for everyone.

 

Mick......RANT OVER

Edited May 18, 2010 by mickyfinn

[Mr_Logic]

So the Police are also not legally entitled to have told me that I have to use a centerfire for fox? That was the issue regarding calibre restriction?

No that's not quite what I said. they CAN say that you cannot shoot foxes with your HMR, BUT for that to be legally binding your FAC must NOT say "and any other legal quarry".

 

Much as your firearms department would like you to believe that they ARE the law, they are not. They do have the power to condition your FAC as they wish, but those conditions are the only law that applies here. Therefore, if your ticket has the right condition but an FEO says otherwise, the FEO's stance has no legal binding. It is quite possible that you will annoy them if you don't do what they say, and whether you wish to do so is up to you, but they can't put you in court and find you guilty of an offence - you won't have committed one.

 

This isn't just my take on it - it's what's in the law. I can go off and quote chapter and verse if that's what is required to prove my point to folk. I have other things to do but will do so as I do care about this particular point. It really annoys me that Police departments think they can make this up as they go along. There is ambiguity when we're talking the term 'vermin'. There is none when it says "any other legal quarry" - a fox is legal quarry, end of.

 

My personal take on the 'vermin' wording is that it is woolly enough that so long as there is nothing specifically conditioned for fox on the ticket. that part IS my personal take on it.

[Colster]

The other issue is around the use of the term "Vermin". An animal only becomes "Vermin" if it can be proved to be harmful (either through it's behaviour and/or it's numbers). Therefore a fox on an arable farm is not Vermin, if it takes a walk down to the local chicken sheds or a farm with small livestock (sheep etc) then it becomes vermin.

 

I don't know whether the FLO's intention is to hide behind this in an instance where the condition is just "Vermin" on a FAC but I agree with Mr Logic that I'd be happier with "...and other Legal Quarry" on mine.

 

It does highlight again the differences between areas and their application of the law and the HO guidelines.

[kdubya]

Fact is like it or not HMR is not on the list as being "suitable for fox" all issuing forces go by the same list, they dont just pick suitability out of the air as some on here seem to think, so if say your feo says its ok he is actually breaching the guidelines, my fac states the calibre's I CAN shoot fox with, fox is stated clearly and its not classed as vermin, my force Cleveland will NOT put fox against HMR I even know of fox being removed from someones license as it was "put on by mistake" yes I know hmr is effective, but its still does not stop the fact hmr is as per calibre guidelines "unsuitable"

 

KW

[Woody79]

My fac has '.17 hmr vermin control, .222 fox control, .243 deer & fox control.'

 

So can I shoot a fox with the 17 hmr ?

 

Sussex Police specifically add fox with regards to .17hmr.

[Ozzy Fudd]

Fact is like it or not HMR is not on the list as being "suitable for fox" all issuing forces go by the same list,

 

which list would this be kdubya? when two feo's interviewed me about getting my hmr in march they told me the psni have no official position on fox calibres; i told them i wanted an hmr for rabbits and foxes and there was no problem with it. also my licence has always just said "for sporting purpose and vermin control", it doesnt specify individual quarry, and i've yet to see a northern ireland fac that does, they all seem to have the same wording :blink:

[Colster]

Fact is like it or not HMR is not on the list as being "suitable for fox" all issuing forces go by the same list, they dont just pick suitability out of the air as some on here seem to think, so if say your feo says its ok he is actually breaching the guidelines, my fac states the calibre's I CAN shoot fox with, fox is stated clearly and its not classed as vermin, my force Cleveland will NOT put fox against HMR I even know of fox being removed from someones license as it was "put on by mistake" yes I know hmr is effective, but its still does not stop the fact hmr is as per calibre guidelines "unsuitable"

 

KW

 

 

Think you should consider what you're saying here - how can you "breach" a "guideline". It's there for guidance, you can accept it or ignore it but you can't breach it.