Firearms act revise follow on post Bird

[Mungler]

Also from that Rochdale example which is a year stale no one died.

 

Indeed, can anyone link to someone actually going berserk with a kitchen knife, car or chainsaw (being much talked about on here as commonly available items which someone could use for mass murder) and actually killing say half a dozen people?

 

I'm not a great fan of state intervention or regulation but having read some of the posts on here recently I think there should most definitely be an added level of "nut nut checks" carried out and if that means talking to an applicant's quack then so be it.

[Scully]

You seem to be avoiding direct questions Mungler and simply trolling for effect now,constantly harping on about 'nut nuts' and checking for them even when the BMC (who are undoubtedly more qualified than either you or me to check for 'nut nuts')have said that GP's cannot do this.

Again,did Bird have mental health issues prior to his shooting rampage,or is it just your 'expert' opinion once again?Did Hamilton or Ryan have mental health issues?Obviously in hindsight they were all undesirables,and possibly seriously disturbed,but we're all qualified in 'hindsight' aren't we?

I noticed the other poster has offered no suggestion for effective legislation,nor told us where these 'wannabe Rambos' are,but I'm sure he'll have informed the authorities.

Had a look on Amazon Mungler,but could find no self-help books on 'How to Spot Nut Nuts',maybe they're out of stock.Or perhaps it' sjust a gift?Shame really,I was going to lend a copy to the Police Authorities.Never mind.

[Robin128]

Parliament can do as it pleases,but are you seriously suggesting it would enact legislation that requires by law a GP's opinion as to the mental health of an applicant?Even professional psychiatrists interviewed by the HASC have stated that they could offer no guarantees of a patients stability in the future even if that person had no record of mental health issues.

Regarding shotguns to section 1;this IS a real possibility(although BASC mooted the reverse of this suggestion)which at a stoke would deplete the numbers of shotguns held by the public as it would entail a 'good reason' for each shotgun held.

 

Cameron, being a shooting man, I hope will have more sense Scully...GP is likely to be anti shooting.

 

It is refreshing to debate with someone with a grasp on what is practical and effective in trying to limit the risk of someone loosing it and going on a killing spree...like Bird.

 

I think the law is fine as it stands but I do worry about its application, given the cuts on the Police force in general and the FAC dept staffing in particular.

 

I don't think much could have been done to keep Bird away from firearms. Just think how many people might lose their s2 cert as well as their s1 cert if criminal records are not allowed at all. A few on here might lose their certs...but would that be right???

[Mungler]

The BMC want to duck it because they don't want the responsibility.

 

However, I do think the government will press the issue of mental stability and suitabilty. If the quacks duck it then it may well be that the best people placed to make that assessment are wives, friends, family, work mates etc. That should get interesting...

 

No matter how many times shooters say "I think the system works fine" it clearly doesn't. The evidence is that it doesn't.

Edited July 25, 2011 by Mungler

[wymberley]

Must admit I think there's an element of truth in Dazza's point of view.

Is there anyone else who knows of anybody that has a SGC just because they want a gun?

The discussion is pie in the sky anyway, que sera sera and we have no control over it.

However, the thread was worth it just for Mungler's, "quacks duck". Brilliant.

[kent]

Stringent? Any idiot can get a shotgun and walk into a field without even knowing the difference between a pigeon and a duck. Just look at some of the posts on this forum to see why certain people shouldn't be allowed guns. Stringent

 

I have to say i agree, firearms spend too much time questining why someone who has a number of firearms and stacks of good reason to hold each yet wants to add or change a calibre and not enough testing the knoledge of a candidate. Open certs are handed out like candy in some areas and FEO's make crackpot desisions on calibres for given land when they themselves dont even shoot quarry or have practical experiance of the calibre they are actually vetting the land for.

 

Many posts on here indicate poor knoledge of quarry or legislation surounding that quarry, we cant legislate for nutters and it does seem that it the untreated, undiagnosed cases that create the threat anyway. We have had a knee jerk reaction twice in the past and neither worked, total bans are a non starter.

 

So lets consentrate on Training and the criminal use and posesion of firearms. Firearm licencing is being and will be cut to the very bone by finantial cuts over the comming months anyway, so lets have it effective and efficient

[al4x]

Also from that Rochdale example which is a year stale no one died.

 

Indeed, can anyone link to someone actually going berserk with a kitchen knife, car or chainsaw (being much talked about on here as commonly available items which someone could use for mass murder) and actually killing say half a dozen people?

 

I'm not a great fan of state intervention or regulation but having read some of the posts on here recently I think there should most definitely be an added level of "nut nut checks" carried out and if that means talking to an applicant's quack then so be it.

 

 

you have to look in certain ways at what nuts seem to be attracted to and guns are well up there. Handguns especially so, the whole analogy of cars I would assume has been turned on its head a little at the weekend. With Norwegian events you'd have to be a bit silly to start defending our sport on the basis of the damage you can do with kitchen utensils. That hopefully was the worst case scenario but bearing in mind the use of expanding ammo has shown what can be done with a nut behind the trigger.

We have to look at the fact the system here is pretty good but not infallible. I've no problems with my doctor giving out any information on me and indeed everyone spouting about depression etc needs to see the stats on the number of legally held guns used in suicides over the years. Yes they may find another way of doing it but its surprisingly common.

[Breastman]

Also from that Rochdale example which is a year stale no one died.

 

Indeed, can anyone link to someone actually going berserk with a kitchen knife, car or chainsaw (being much talked about on here as commonly available items which someone could use for mass murder) and actually killing say half a dozen people?

 

I'm not a great fan of state intervention or regulation but having read some of the posts on here recently I think there should most definitely be an added level of "nut nut checks" carried out and if that means talking to an applicant's quack then so be it.

 

Sounds like news travels as fast in Essex as it does in Hinckley

 

There are dozens of documented mass murders using vehicles, especially in the middle east at the moment, you can watch several videos of them if you go to the 'right' websites. But heres a recent high profile one;

 

2009 Dutch Royal family

 

Knife spree killings are prolific in the far east;

 

China school spree stabbings

 

Have enough people died in these incidents for people to give a toss?? Jeez :look:

 

Mark

[Scully]

The BMC want to duck it because they don't want the responsibility.

 

However, I do think the government will press the issue of mental stability and suitabilty. If the quacks duck it then it may well be that the best people placed to make that assessment are wives, friends, family, work mates etc. That should get interesting...

 

No matter how many times shooters say "I think the system works fine" it clearly doesn't. The evidence is that it doesn't.

Regarding pressing the issue of mental stability/suitability,tis has already been agreed between ACPO and the BMC,and the changes are now in place(as of June this year I think,possibly earlier).

The matter of wives/ex-wives,family etc has already been mooted but thought to be unworkable for obvious reasons.

You're right,the system doesn't work,neither does the judicial system,but it's the best we have.I know of no murders which were prevented because 'it's against the law'.Do you?So let's hear what you would do.I noticed you haven't answered my question regarding BIrds mental health.Was he seeing his GP regarding mental health issues?If not,then up to the point where he snapped,society was unaware of his stability,just like it's unaware of yours and mine.Any solutions?

[Imperfection]

So what happens when you have no idea who your GP is?

 

For example mine retired over 4 years ago and although im still registered with the same practice i have no idea who im now under.I havent had the need to see a doctor in years so if they brought it in that your GP can give their opinion whether you're suitable to own a gun-how could mine when he/she dont know what i look like let alone my mental status?

 

I cant see this comming into force.

[demonwolf444]

I know what you mean, certain posts on here really make you wonder, For a start somepeople need to take the time to read the general license.

[Mungler]

Sounds like news travels as fast in Essex as it does in Hinckley

 

There are dozens of documented mass murders using vehicles, especially in the middle east at the moment, you can watch several videos of them if you go to the 'right' websites. But heres a recent high profile one;

 

2009 Dutch Royal family

 

Knife spree killings are prolific in the far east;

 

China school spree stabbings

 

Have enough people died in these incidents for people to give a toss?? Jeez :look:

 

Mark

 

 

Anything relevant to this Country given that we are talking about UK firearms licensing?

 

Not exactly on national radar as a problem, threat or equivalent.

[Mungler]

Regarding pressing the issue of mental stability/suitability,tis has already been agreed between ACPO and the BMC,and the changes are now in place(as of June this year I think,possibly earlier).

The matter of wives/ex-wives,family etc has already been mooted but thought to be unworkable for obvious reasons.

You're right,the system doesn't work,neither does the judicial system,but it's the best we have.I know of no murders which were prevented because 'it's against the law'.Do you?So let's hear what you would do.I noticed you haven't answered my question regarding BIrds mental health.Was he seeing his GP regarding mental health issues?If not,then up to the point where he snapped,society was unaware of his stability,just like it's unaware of yours and mine.Any solutions?

 

Nope, there was nothing on the medical radar for Derek Bird indicating that he was a nut nut. He had seen his GP for problems following being attacked a few times as a cabbie, but certainly nothing suggesting voices in his head or a desire to gun down a dozen plus people.

 

I think the pattern is single men with an interest in guns - that covers Ryan, Hamilton, Bird and probably a few odd balls on here

 

The problem is that when something goes off, it shows that the system isn't working. How to fix it, I dunno. The government's view is to implement restrictions; assault rifles with Ryan, pistols with Hamilton.

 

Bird's a tricky one - the guns he used were particularly un-rambo-esque and will be difficult to ban or restrict - they were the usual farm "tools" rather than the stuff of Walting Guns and Ammo fantasists such as Ryan and Hamilton.

 

The shooting community can sigh and say "it's one of those things" and to some extent I actually agree with that. It couldn't have been predicted, he didn't have any tell tale obsession with guns BUT the general public won't give a **** about that and will want to see something "done" even if whatever gets "done" is irrelevant to preventing a reoccurrence.

 

Interesting stuff and no obvious answers....

Edited July 25, 2011 by Mungler

[HDAV]

So what happens when you have no idea who your GP is?

 

For example mine retired over 4 years ago and although im still registered with the same practice i have no idea who im now under.I havent had the need to see a doctor in years so if they brought it in that your GP can give their opinion whether you're suitable to own a gun-how could mine when he/she dont know what i look like let alone my mental status?

 

I cant see this comming into force.

My Practice don't assign you an individual GP your just a patient of the practice and your seen by whoever is available! I only know this because its my missus practice as well I only went for the "new patient" check, havent been back for the results yet!

 

 

I think the pattern is single men with an interest in guns - that covers Ryan, Hamilton, Bird and probably a few odd balls on here

 

I have no doubt the next one to flip out will be a member of a forum (Bird may well have been)...

Edited July 25, 2011 by HDAV

[highseas]

Really?How would you tighten some of the most stringent firearms legislation in the world?Who are these idiots running around the countryside like wannabe Rambos?

grug!! no realy thou i know of a few people who should not hold guns

[Mungler]

I have no doubt the next one to flip out will be a member of a forum (Bird may well have been)...

 

Yeah it's a worry

 

But if you are into guns and shooting, it seems likely that you would find a shooting forum or two....

[Breastman]

Indeed, can anyone link to someone actually going berserk with a kitchen knife, car or chainsaw (being much talked about on here as commonly available items which someone could use for mass murder) and actually killing say half a dozen people?

 

 

No mention of UK only incidents in the question m'lud

 

Anything relevant to this Country given that we are talking about UK firearms licensing?

 

 

I have seen several videos of people using their cars in this country as battering rams, usually against people coming out of nightclubs. But frankly i can't be boshed to find them again, especially considering the type of websites that normally host things like that.

 

Now where's them goalposts got to . . . .

 

Mark

[welsh1]

Trust my gp, to get it right,your having a laugh

The same gp who filled in my hgv form(45 years old),and charged me £80 for the privilege.

After no licence for a month i contacted dvla,they were very concerned that i had applied for a hgv renewal,but i was virtually blind,my gp had filled the form out and marked me down 6/1 virtually blind,instead of 6/6 excellent vision,it took a few choice words for him to send a fax off to dvla admitting his mistake.

 

This gp was in a group practice,i had never met him before,when i did speak to him he told me he had gone through my life history and could see no problems,i then pointed out that there was over 10 years of my medical history missing,the Army had lost the documents,so he couldn't have read my history,he went bright red,realising he had been caught out.

 

So why would a gp be able to make vital decisions about my mental health,when he lied to me and filled out a simple form making me technically blind.

 

Years ago i had a family doctor,and he knew all about me as it was him i saw every time,he even used to fish with my Dad,but in these new group practises you will see a different gp every time,and they go on notes,so do not have the full picture.

 

I jumped through hoops for my tickets,and it was thanks to basc and a letter to the Chief Constable that got me them,they asked my gp about my PTSD but the gp sent in a half hearted letter saying they were sitting on the fence,again they should have come clean and said they had no records for my military service,and were not qualified to make a decision,instead of muddying the waters.

[Mungler]

No mention of UK only incidents in the question m'lud

 

 

 

I have seen several videos of people using their cars in this country as battering rams, usually against people coming out of nightclubs. But frankly i can't be boshed to find them again, especially considering the type of websites that normally host things like that.

 

Now where's them goalposts got to . . . .

 

Mark

 

 

No movement of goalposts - those examples have nothing to do with the UK and given that we are particularly discussing firearms licensing in the UK and not Denmark or China, they are not relevant and could never be considered to be so.

 

Mind you, if looking globally and going back a decade that is the best you can do, then that's still a C- at best.

[Breastman]

No movement of goalposts - those examples have nothing to do with the UK and given that we are particularly discussing firearms licensing in the UK and not Denmark or China, they are not relevant and could never be considered to be so.

 

Mind you, if looking globally and going back a decade that is the best you can do, then that's still a C- at best.

Yep thats right, cars and knives are different in this country, ours couldn't be used to hurt someone, no chance Are you trying to make up for MC not being on here any more or something?

 

BTW, just so i can let my researcher know, how many people have to die in your mind before it qualifies as being worthy of your seal of approval

 

Rhetorical questions in case you were wondering. I'm disappointed in myself for biting.

 

ATB

 

Mark

[Mungler]

Seriously, how is someone driving into the Dutch Royal family in 2009 relevant?

 

On the subject of firearms licensing no one has mentioned Wako or Columbine etc because it's not relevant.

[HDAV]

grug!! no realy thou i know of a few people who should not hold guns

Then you should really do something about it. Not nastily not accusingly but with clear conscience, not a nice thing to do but let the FLO decide

[Mungler]

Yeah but no matter how many times I email my FLO he keeps telling me that there is no "Mr. Masterblaster" or a "Master Blaster" with an FAC

[Scully]

Nope, there was nothing on the medical radar for Derek Bird indicating that he was a nut nut. He had seen his GP for problems following being attacked a few times as a cabbie, but certainly nothing suggesting voices in his head or a desire to gun down a dozen plus people.

 

I think the pattern is single men with an interest in guns - that covers Ryan, Hamilton, Bird and probably a few odd balls on here

 

The problem is that when something goes off, it shows that the system isn't working. How to fix it, I dunno. The government's view is to implement restrictions; assault rifles with Ryan, pistols with Hamilton.

 

Bird's a tricky one - the guns he used were particularly un-rambo-esque and will be difficult to ban or restrict - they were the usual farm "tools" rather than the stuff of Walting Guns and Ammo fantasists such as Ryan and Hamilton.

 

The shooting community can sigh and say "it's one of those things" and to some extent I actually agree with that. It couldn't have been predicted, he didn't have any tell tale obsession with guns BUT the general public won't give a **** about that and will want to see something "done" even if whatever gets "done" is irrelevant to preventing a reoccurrence.

 

Interesting stuff and no obvious answers....

 

I have a good mate who is single,and owns quite an arsenal,and I use to read 'Guns and Ammo' when I was into handguns.Who in your opinion should be watching who?

You're right,there are no obvious answers.If there was a method for preventing the acts of those such as Bird etc,I think it would have been implemented by now.

Japan thought that by banning the civilian ownership of firearms they could prevent such events,so they introduced the ban.They issue tickets to their Olympic shooters but shootings still occur,and I don;t think Olympians are responsible!

Edited July 25, 2011 by Scully

[daz2202]

Maybe though our doctors health records should state that we are fac /sgc holders. Then at least if you went to the quacks cos you are cutting the grass wearing flippers and a thong at 3am they could make the local feo aware . It would then be down to them to re interview you and make a descision whether you should keep your guns.

 

I know that was a little ott as an example but an old collegue of mine actually handed over his sg to a local rfd when his wife left him as he didn't 100% trust himself, not just with a gun but his whole life was a big downer. 4 years later he picked his gun back up and got into clay shooting in a big way. Now he did this off his own back , how many people would !!!