HDAV Posted January 3, 2012 Report Share Posted January 3, 2012 (edited) I agree with the point made about compulsory training for SGC applicants. How would that work then? HOw would it prevent anything from happening? Same for FAC? a range of courses covering each situation and calibre with a written test? Like in Germany? Shooters are already very very safe (BASC have the figures), when was the last time you heard of novice causing an accident? Or Accidentally killing someone? A safety course mandated to get an SGC would have prevented how many incidents in the last 10 years? Edited January 3, 2012 by HDAV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sterling Posted January 3, 2012 Report Share Posted January 3, 2012 (edited) How would that work then? HOw would it prevent anything from happening? Same for FAC? a range of courses covering each situation and calibre with a written test? Like in Germany? It wouldn't prevent a nutter killing people. Nothing will. The sooner the media and the public realise that, the sooner we can get back to improving (not necessarily making it more difficult) firearms laws and licensing. You can't buy a car and drive it on the road without testing because it increases the chance of accidental injury or death. The same could be said for firearms tests. It might not make a huge difference to the stats, it just makes sense. proactive rather than reactive. We already have too many reactive gun laws. I've done a canadian PAL/RPAL license test. You demonstrate safe handling and operation of the type of firearms you plan to own and that's it. Not too guelling. It's not meant to be a pain for sensible people, it's meant to stop "special" folks from owning weapons. Edited January 3, 2012 by sterling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imperfection Posted January 3, 2012 Report Share Posted January 3, 2012 I agree with the point made about compulsory training for SGC applicants. Wont work.I see people on a daily basis who shouldnt be behind the wheel of a car and have obviously passed their tests. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobt Posted January 3, 2012 Report Share Posted January 3, 2012 actually I cant think of anytime I have been asked for sight of my driving licence when buying a car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matty7247 Posted January 3, 2012 Report Share Posted January 3, 2012 A massive issue that alot of people seem to miss, is the use of ILLEGAl firearms, like the one used to murder that student in Manchester?? Britian has one of the toughest licencing laws in the world, but it seems scarily easy for some to get hold of illegal weapons? For every licence holder who 'loses' it, and Murders people, how many un-licenced weapons are on the streets?? It does seem that, due to the fact he was licenced, the press seem happy to ignore the use of illegal weapons. The police in this instance decided agaisnt revoking his licence, even in the wake of him admitting to wanting to self harm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J@mes Posted January 3, 2012 Report Share Posted January 3, 2012 So how would safety courses and more "reasons" to own prevented the last two episodes then? Neither of them killed anyone by accident. Both had FAC and therefore must have proved their reasons for holding their section 1 weapons, rather than owning shotguns "just because they can." The only way to stop people going mental and killing their families with legally held firearms would be to ban all legally held firearms. Then they'd have to use illegally held firearms, so the legal shooter wouldn't be caught up in the fall out. But there wouldn't be any, so it wouldn't matter anyway. Any sensible suggestions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sterling Posted January 3, 2012 Report Share Posted January 3, 2012 actually I cant think of anytime I have been asked for sight of my driving licence when buying a car. You can't legally drive your car on the road without supervision or a valid license. Would you definitely get caught? Would you definitely get caught taking your shotgun onto public land at night or storing it loaded under your bed or sawing it off and carrying it in your coat? Nope, laws don't prevent illegal things happening. Hey, anybody hear about that shooting in Durham? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloke Posted January 3, 2012 Report Share Posted January 3, 2012 Having worked in mental health care for most of my working life, one of the biggest problems I have encountered is duplicated exactly in the shooting world. When someone has been detained under a Section of the mental Health Act and that Section comes up for renewal, in order for it to be renewed, the staff must provide EVIDENCE that the person still poses a risk to themselves or society at large, or would pose a risk if allowed back into main-stream society without the restrictions of the Section. The Problem with evidence is that, by nature, it must be 'evident', i.e. obvious to anyone, that something is true. Now - apply this to gun licencing. GPs, Psychiatrists and other mental health professionals.often with many years experience, develop a sort of 'sixth sense' that someone is possibly suicidal or dangerous, but without that tricky 'evidence' are stuck. Unless the person has actually made a violent or suicidal attempt, there is no other evidence than the professional 'gut feeling', and that won't hold weight in a court - ask any policeman! If the GP then is asked, "Do you think this person is safe to be granted FAC/SGC?" and they say no, and the applicant appeals, they will be expected to supply 'evidence' for their statement, rightly so, which is why they stuck to their point in the recent enquiry - any diagnosis is only applicable at that point in time and can give only a shaky indication at best as to how an individual will act in the future. This is why the medical profession made a stand against giving direct opinions. Obviously, if an individual has made attempts at self-harm or violence towards others, that IS evidence, but for how long? I know of at least one shooter who has a conviction for assaulting a police officer, but as it was about 30 years ago and he has been a model citizen since, should he be banned? We now come to the most confusing fact. As even specialist medical professionals will not try and become human crystal balls, the onus falls onto the FEO, often an ex or serving Police officer, to try and assess a person's potential mental health for the next 5 years without more than maybe a couple of days experience with the local mental health team in their training! Of course people will slip through the net, no system is ever perfect, but we have degraded into a culture of blame and hysteria, where we must always find a 'whipping boy' to take the rap, rather than accept that in even the best systems, tragedies will occur (But of course, none of that sells papers does it?)Until we can educate the public, without the "all gun owners are animal murdering freaks" bias from the press, nothing will change. All shooters can do is take every opportunity to respond in an accurate calm way, showing that the control we have over our emotions and behaviour is WHY we are considered suitable to be granted licences in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cockercas Posted January 3, 2012 Report Share Posted January 3, 2012 have you heard yourselves. compulsory training wouldnt work. what are you going to teach them?. how about this, dont point a gun at something you are not going to shoot at. sound about right. yes. now would that stopped this bloke shooting his family?. NO he ment to do it if he didnt have a gun he would of stabbed them,driven them into a lake ect. you can not legislate/all the training in the world to stop a switch flicking to mental in somones head. even if we had to have weekly medicals/training. well he was sane 3 days ago, then he caught his wife sh***** his brother with the milk man watching and decided to shoot them all, he didnt want the kids to know what daddy did to mummy so he kills them and then himself. how can train/legislate for that situation. simple answer you carn't. end of Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fenboy Posted January 3, 2012 Report Share Posted January 3, 2012 Bird and Atherton both had Taxi licences... Vslid point ,perhaps we should not invite Taxidriver off here to anymore flushes in case he goes on the rampage seriousley though are there those who should not have a licence ,of course there is Derek Bird had a licence and clearly was in no mental state to do so as it seems was this latest chap, question is how do you prevent it ? a renewal last 5 years and that can be plenty of time for a normal guy to have some "issues" perhaps certificates are too easy to get ,perhaps they are to cheap , it costs me almost 4 x the price of a shotgun certificate over the 5 year period to licence those deadly things called fishing rods !. I just cant see where there is a easy solution to this debate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKPoacher Posted January 3, 2012 Report Share Posted January 3, 2012 Bird and Atherton both had Taxi licences... According to Top Gear the Renault Espace was driven by Harold Shipman, Fred West and Peter Sutcliffe. Perhaps we should lock all Renault Espace drivers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted January 3, 2012 Report Share Posted January 3, 2012 I heard the FEO for the Dunblane guy apparently refused him but it was overruled by the chief constable. Don't even start on the Dumblane shooting. There is so much you wouldn't know where to begin. But there are still reporting restrictions in place, they were never lifted. So we could well be breaking the law by talking about it even on here. But really don't bother trying because you can never get to the bottom of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted January 3, 2012 Report Share Posted January 3, 2012 Vslid point ,perhaps we should not invite Taxidriver off here to anymore flushes in case he goes on the rampage The point is both of these people had satisfied the police and local authority (I have no idea how you get a taxi licence or what it entails but the "experts" seem to think it is as stringent as FAC. So thats about as much checking as can be done... Checking if your driver is licensedTo grant a taxi or PHV driver licence, authorities must make sure that an applicant is a fit and proper person to hold the licence. Local authorities decide what to include in judging whether applicants are fit and proper, but the assessment would normally involve: criminal record check local area knowledge test medical check special driving test (the Driving Standards Agency has devised a special taxi or PHV driving test) Taxi and PHV drivers should normally wear a badge showing their licence number. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
working dog Posted January 3, 2012 Report Share Posted January 3, 2012 NO he ment to do it if he didnt have a gun he would of stabbed them,driven them into a lake ect. you can not legislate/all the training in the world to stop a switch flicking to mental in somones head. Agree with this. A lad I knew from school, a happy family man, seemed very level when you spoke to him. The sort that you could see owning a gun and not take issue with. One day he was on the news. He stabbed his wife to death and hung himself. I'm sure that he had plenty of other options to 'do the deed' in his builders tools. I hate to think of what was going on in his head to lead him down such a dark path. As far as I know there was no outcry on the licensing of kitchen knives or rope as a result of this tragedy. It happens but gets more media attention when it involves guns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted January 3, 2012 Report Share Posted January 3, 2012 We now come to the most confusing fact. As even specialist medical professionals will not try and become human crystal balls, the onus falls onto the FEO, often an ex or serving Police officer, to try and assess a person's potential mental health for the next 5 years without more than maybe a couple of days experience with the local mental health team in their training! Of course people will slip through the net, no system is ever perfect, but we have degraded into a culture of blame and hysteria, where we must always find a 'whipping boy' to take the rap, rather than accept that in even the best systems, tragedies will occur (But of course, none of that sells papers does it?)Until we can educate the public, without the "all gun owners are animal murdering freaks" bias from the press, nothing will change. All shooters can do is take every opportunity to respond in an accurate calm way, showing that the control we have over our emotions and behaviour is WHY we are considered suitable to be granted licences in the first place. Thats very true, the simple fact is that the most dangerous in society often appear normal. Being the age I am most of my uncles, certainly my father and both my grandfathers. Many of my teachers at the local Grammar Schools and most of my friends Dads had killed people, probably quite enthusiastically and often but then returned to hang up their uniforms and lead normal lives again. Its a very deep issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted January 3, 2012 Report Share Posted January 3, 2012 (edited) Thats very true, the simple fact is that the most dangerous in society often appear normal. Being the age I am most of my uncles, certainly my father and both my grandfathers. Many of my teachers at the local Grammar Schools and most of my friends Dads had killed people, probably quite enthusiastically and often but then returned to hang up their uniforms and lead normal lives again. Its a very deep issue. Very true vince, just as criminal record just means you got prosecuted successfully... Shame the "listen again" isnt working for that particular show.... Edited January 3, 2012 by HDAV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Browning 425 clay hunter Posted January 3, 2012 Report Share Posted January 3, 2012 Unfortunately all the rules and checks in the world won't prevent every incident like this. Allegedly this guy showed signs of self harm 3 years ago. His licences should have been removed instantly until he could prove he was fit to be trusted again. Doesn't make sense to punish the majority because of the minority. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamekeeper1960 Posted January 3, 2012 Report Share Posted January 3, 2012 Hi All, I'm afraid I've been around far to long to realise that you can never legislate against anybody having a "breakdown" and even if we got rid of guns of all type, it would'nt stop people being murdered. And I hope the powers to be feel the same way.You cant help but feel for the people left behind by those who murder,but hope that one day they can learn to live with it. Dave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted January 3, 2012 Report Share Posted January 3, 2012 Unfortunately all the rules and checks in the world won't prevent every incident like this. Allegedly this guy showed signs of self harm 3 years ago. His licences should have been removed instantly until he could prove he was fit to be trusted again. Doesn't make sense to punish the majority because of the minority. Don't be so quick to condemn with 20-20 hindsight. How would one prove one was "fit" again or how would the police prove one was "unfit". We'll have to wait for the IPCC report, but with FEO's being made redundant and budgets being cut I can see the prognosis being pretty poor for shooters for the short term. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Browning 425 clay hunter Posted January 3, 2012 Report Share Posted January 3, 2012 It's pretty easy to prove he's unfit. When it came to light he openly talked about self harm and the police new about it. Or do selfharmers have the right to bear arms. Seems obvious to me. People of unsound mind should not have weapons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricko Posted January 3, 2012 Report Share Posted January 3, 2012 According to Top Gear the Renault Espace was driven by Harold Shipman, Fred West and Peter Sutcliffe. Perhaps we should lock all Renault Espace drivers? I don't think that the Renault Espace was around at the time of Peter Sutcliffe and I thnk that Fred West had a van, not sure though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mossy835 Posted January 3, 2012 Report Share Posted January 3, 2012 I agree with the point made about compulsory training for SGC applicants. and how would that help,if we did have it in what happened the other day, would still have happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted January 3, 2012 Report Share Posted January 3, 2012 Agreed - bit of a red herring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huntsman Posted January 3, 2012 Report Share Posted January 3, 2012 what has 6 firearms got to do with the issue, YOU ONLY NEED 1 TO KILL :no: Sometimes the media do get on my tits. No matter how many drunk drivers there are on the road, who kill,do they say that, they are reviewing driving techniques, or we have to have compulsory further training The police at Durham were at fault for allegedly, knowing this man was going off the rails,according to the bulls*it we all read in the media Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE AD Posted January 3, 2012 Report Share Posted January 3, 2012 They just had a EX copper on there saying it harder to get a taxi drivers license than a FAC? That cant be true can it? All the very best fellas . Andy . and the guy was a taxi driver. and how would that help,if we did have it in what happened the other day, would still have happened. Spot on mate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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