Ricko Posted January 15, 2012 Report Share Posted January 15, 2012 I met an old friend who been farming for a good few years now, he took over the tenancy of his father's farm. When I asked him about dealing with some pigeons later in the year he explained that he didn't want heavy metals in his soil samples but he was ok with steel shot. None of my guns are proofed for steel shot, is there an alternative? I know nothing about Bismuth(?) Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRAD1927 Posted January 15, 2012 Report Share Posted January 15, 2012 At the current costs of lead alternatives your looking at a very expensive day, plus if your gun is not steel proofed possibly a new gun. Has he explained why he needs to do the soil samples? I'm guessing its something to do with supermarkets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted January 15, 2012 Report Share Posted January 15, 2012 are your guns 2.5" chambers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deershooter Posted January 15, 2012 Report Share Posted January 15, 2012 Total ******** crops have been grown at our local clay shoot for years with no problem, and yes they have been tested for lead content with no problems, 25 years of down the line so there must be hundreds of tones in the same place. Deershooter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted January 15, 2012 Report Share Posted January 15, 2012 You can use steel in your gun even if it isn't proofed for it,but the current advice is not to put it through chokes tighter than 1/2. As regards lead levels in soil,the lead is already there;always has been.Lead is present in all the crop products we eat,and the lead levels in commercially manufactured baby milk powders is higher than those naturally occuring in a mothers breast milk! Have to agree with 'deershooter'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris t Posted January 15, 2012 Report Share Posted January 15, 2012 Total bulls@@t crops have been grown at our local clay shoot for years with no problem, and yes they have been tested for lead content with no problems, 25 years of down the line so there must be hundreds of tones in the same place. Deershooter with you on this one, the amount of lead that comes out of shotguns compared to the millions of tons of soil, you'd never been able to detect it. I've got no idea what he's on about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRAD1927 Posted January 15, 2012 Report Share Posted January 15, 2012 The only other explanation is possibly if shot lands in the crops, steel is obviously easier to remove with a strong magnet but its a poor excuse. The lead in the soil IMO is just an excuse to make it difficult and maybe a hope of putting you off politly as he is a friend. I would personally ask him why it's so important and then explain the amount of crops he may lose is will most certainly be higher if you dont control the vermin. Good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted January 15, 2012 Report Share Posted January 15, 2012 You may be able to shoot none HP steel http://www.basc.org.uk/download.cfm/docid/BAC60995-5CBE-4047-8AD032DF16AD1F1A I have heard of a clay ground which is having issues with these soil samples, just because the level is X amount doesn't mean its safe or dangerous and just because there is a limit/approved/allowed level doesn't mean it will have an impact positive or negative. I can see it being a bigger issue for "organic" producers (and they are the ones that need a more effective pestcontrol!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 You can use steel in your gun even if it isn't proofed for it,but the current advice is not to put it through chokes tighter than 1/2. As regards lead levels in soil,the lead is already there;always has been.Lead is present in all the crop products we eat,and the lead levels in commercially manufactured baby milk powders is higher than those naturally occuring in a mothers breast milk! Have to agree with 'deershooter'. he cant if the gun is chambered for 2.5" 70mm chamber is the minimum for steel. it says on the box of super steels that these are suitable for 2.5" chambers. even though the shells are 70mm. ! its a major typo ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salopian Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 UM Garli is Somalian for Buffalo Poo it comes from a now extinct tribe who wandered around all day, not working, not eating. All they did all day was do nothing except wander around saying um garli, um garli, um garli, until finally they died out. Your farmer friend may be related because he is talking Um Garli :lol: :lol: :lol: The amount of lead deposited by shooting would be found to be negligable in soil tests by agronomisists. I think he is politely saying 'No I don't want shooting on my land' Perhaps it may be worthwhile pointing out to him that steel shot is far more damaging to agricultural land due to the effects of ferrous oxide and ferrous chloride on vegitation. ( grass burn). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 (edited) steel shot is far more damaging to agricultural land due to the effects of ferrous oxide and ferrous chloride on vegitation. ( grass burn). +1 it degrades, quicker by rusting when wet. Edited January 16, 2012 by cookoff013 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 he cant if the gun is chambered for 2.5" 70mm chamber is the minimum for steel. it says on the box of super steels that these are suitable for 2.5" chambers. even though the shells are 70mm. ! its a major typo ! Thanks for that...worth knowing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vulpicide Posted January 17, 2012 Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 If lead is so bad how come awe the people in Leadhills urnae DEID? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rem708 Posted January 17, 2012 Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) I feel there is far too much emphasis on lead these days. Metallic lead is not poisonous and if ingested just passes through you. It is fairly inert and forms an oxidised surface which protects it. The oxidised surface does not wash away in normal day to day conditions otherwise it would, over time, disappear and there would be a lot of leaky roofs around (assuming the ‘tea leaves’ have not got there first). All piping, pre-war, was lead. A lot of paints contained lead (nearly all primers!). If lead was that much of an issue then there would not be a post war population as everyone would have died off! I used to think nothing of shooting a 1,000 rounds a week when I was allowed to own hand guns. Our range does not have any filters in the ventilation and I was there for a minimum of 2 nights every week. All the primers contained lead based explosive and we had a rule of no jacketed bullets. With that amount of shooting the back-stops gummed up frequently so it was our job to dig it out. We never used any significant protection bar not licking ones fingers whilst working. You came away grey! You blew your nose and your hanky was black. I used to use the spoils from the range to cast new bullets so I was constantly around a vat of molten lead. After many years of this apparent abuse I became concerned reading all these warnings, and having private health insurance, decided to have a specific lead blood test performed on my annual health MOT. To my surprise the results showed I was well below average! I’m still here after huge exposure to the stuff (which is accumulative for the record) so there is far too much emphasis on ‘might’ or ‘could’ cause you harm than does! Edited January 18, 2012 by rem708 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anser2 Posted January 17, 2012 Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) The soil contamination may depend on the soil type. There is a clay ground in Norfolk that used to be used for national shoots where the ground is so contaminated that the grass carries dangerously high levels of lead and the hares and rabbits are unfit for human consumption. Rem 708 , the reason why there has been little after effects on humans from lead pipeing is because lead is not soluble in water. The real problem with lead is not with us , but with bird poisoning. Look back a year or two on posts on this subject and you will find a load of scientific papers on the effects of lead on birds. I frequently use steel 32 gr loads in a 70mm game gun on pigeons and it does the job fine out to 40 yards. Only when roost shooting do I find lead does a better job when many pigeons are taken on the edge of range Edited January 17, 2012 by anser2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dann boy Posted January 17, 2012 Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 hi guys i am farm worker in suffolk i have just heard from my boss that there is talk from eu about banning lead shot for shooting over crops such as rape and peas. cos the lead has been getting in the samples and if it is found whole load is wasted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisAsh Posted January 17, 2012 Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 Is it not the farmers right to ask for non lead to be used without having to explain why, to use steel is a small price to pay for permission and a cheap secondhand gun for steel would not break most people's bank, and the savings over time using steel add up £50 per thousand on some cartridges How would you feel if you were in the farmers position and someone wanted to cross examine you about your request, he could be reaching for his own gun!! with your impertinance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricko Posted January 18, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2012 Thanks for all the discussion, he rents the land and he calls the shots!! If a farmer is not a keen shot then he won't know all the recent info regarding this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted January 19, 2012 Report Share Posted January 19, 2012 some use steel, because the shot can be extracted from the crop via magnet. cook. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motty Posted January 20, 2012 Report Share Posted January 20, 2012 hi guys i am farm worker in suffolk i have just heard from my boss that there is talk from eu about banning lead shot for shooting over crops such as rape and peas. cos the lead has been getting in the samples and if it is found whole load is wasted Hasn't that been the case for a while,now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JR1960 Posted January 20, 2012 Report Share Posted January 20, 2012 I guess there must be some contamination but in a normal crop protection scenario i doubt its going to be a great issue, however as previously said, they're his crops and he can ask for what he wants. Didn't all this lead shot thing start off with birds mistaking it for snails and eating it and being poisoned? Funny how things move on apace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coyotemaster Posted January 21, 2012 Report Share Posted January 21, 2012 Without doubt it is the farmers right to impose limits to what he wants shot over his ground--owned or leased. Lead shot does deteriorate and more rapidly in highly fertilized soils putting organic lead in the ground. It could be the farmer is growing for the market and doesn't want heavy metal contamination as some crops take up metals more readily than others. Those who scoff at the toxicity of lead should enlighten themselves a bit. Just because there are no obvious signs YET does not mean it is not harming you.Lead is stored in the bones and displaces calcium and is a cause of high blood pressure. Ingesting lead is plain stupid and will make you that way pretty quickly, the acid environment of the GI tract helps to release lead to your kidneys causing renal damage. Many ranges in the US are facing lawsuits for contamination of nearby fields and are forced to close. I would find another place to shoot and avoid the coming hassle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted January 24, 2012 Report Share Posted January 24, 2012 There are always potential issues with any type of shot and some crops. We have had claims in the past for example for people shooting apples- well not exactly shooting the apples, but shooting pigeons and some of the spent shot travelling on into the orchard and embedding in apples. Similarly we have has some problems with people shooting over lettuce or cabbage or other leafy crops, with spent shot resting in the leaves. All crops are inspected by the supermarket buyers and they may reject an entire crop if there is evidence of contamination, no one wants to chip a tooth on a ham and lettuce butty. People don’t mind reading on a bit of pheasant or pigeon in the shops ‘may contain shot’ that’s to be expected with game, but not in your fruit and veg! Ultimately, the landlord calls the shots, so the only way forward is to work with him or her, respect their rights and interests, after all it’s your sport but its their livelihood! Never the less there should be no reason that with a bit of mutual understanding you cannot keep on shooting, just extra care will be needed in some cases. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salopian Posted January 25, 2012 Report Share Posted January 25, 2012 I think that the shooting organisations such as BASC should get off their backside and represent shooting against this constant anti-lead campaign. When the lead shot ban came in BASC said they would support the trend towards non-toxic shot alternatives providing there were readily available and economic alternatives. That really has yet to happen. But still there is no factual scientific evidence of the harm that lead shot does to birdlife, only conjecture. If any of you actually saw vegetable harvesting you would see that the vegetables are handled a lot, agitated a lot during harvesting process and washed often. The actual incidence of lead shot contamination I would think would be negligable. But it is so easy to lie down and roll over to demands to comply. What is the actual numbers involved in crop rejection due to lead shot contamination? A friend of mine grows vast amounts of vegetables for the supermarkets, at a price dictated by the supermarket. I asked what would happen if he had a crops rejected, he said it hardly ever happens due to good practice. But if it ever did he would then sell that harvest at market no problem and depending on market forces possibly at a better price than the supermarket pays. Incidentally we shoot thirty days over his land gameshooting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redgum Posted January 25, 2012 Report Share Posted January 25, 2012 Use lead and just keep a few steels in your pocket in case you have to be searched Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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