Hamster Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 Um..I think it is a pretty efficient market,there is a lot of competition and producers.In the 1970s I think 25 cartridges were about £3,in real terms much cheaper now.Now I would not be surprised if there is a soft cartel in operation but to do honest I think cartridges are good value. In answer to game load costs I would guess they charge what people will pay..a bit like most markets..I have no doubt there is more margin on game loads,but again these are sold in less quantity than clay loads and game shooters typically have deeper pockets than clay shooters.. The component costs/Euro/transportation costs have not helped in the last 2 years but compared to when I was sent pigeon shooting with just 3 cartridges shells are now cheap! I don't know the UK figures but reading the US posts on different forums it appears that clay loads take a very distant 2nd in order of importance over there. I have in the past been told by suppliers that manufacturers aren't really interested in orders for odd batches such as 24g loads (even if these appear on their price lists ) as they have their hands full with bulging Game orders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salopian Posted February 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 Thank you for your comments gentlemen. But we still have not any idea what a thousand 28 gram cartridges real cost is. Also we have conveniently sidestepped why is it Ladds of Crediton can buy and transport from Italy, then hold in stock Nobelsport cartridges and retail them cheaper than the British cartridge manufacturers. Why can you buy RC RC2 cartridges manufactured in Italy cheaper than British comparable performance cartridges? Why is a 28gram Game size 6 shot dearer than a clay load? Answer is because we are being ripped off by our own countrymen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floating Chamber Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 What about these prices? http://www.justcartridges.com/pdf/winchester.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) Maybe one our our reloading fellow PWers could work out the cost of reloading a particularly popular clay round, the Hull Cartridge Comp X 21g. Firms have to make money but are we being ripped off! I must have missed something, what makes the Hull Cart Comp x 21g a particularly popular clay load, unless you are a tart and shooting from the ladies Tee? Edited February 23, 2012 by Dekers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fruitloop Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) What about these prices? http://www.justcartridges.com/pdf/winchester.pdf my god are the brass gold plated and bismuth shot :look: Edited February 23, 2012 by fruitloop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livefast123 Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 I must have missed something, what makes the Hull Cart Comp x 21g a particularly popular clay load, unless you are a tart and shooting from the ladies Tee? You know me that well Quite a few shoot them down here, must be the £££ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisAsh Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 I guess that the cost difference between clay and game is due to lay users thinking nothing of shooting 100-150 a day where as game shooters are probably shooting far less each shoot and also shooting less often, so a big difference in numbers sold Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bunnykiller Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 What is the real cost of a commercially produced cartridge? Just asking to try and evaluate if cartridge manufacturers are ripping us off or actually doing us a big favour. We all know about cheap component costs, but how do they justify over £100 per thousand price difference between budget 1oz clay loads and premium game cartridges. Please don't come up with limited production of Game loads, because that argument will not wash with me I'm afraid. Cartridge manufacturers are in the job of making money not breaking even. If you could produce something for pennies and sell it for pounds wouldnt you do it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamster Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 I guess that the cost difference between clay and game is due to lay users thinking nothing of shooting 100-150 a day where as game shooters are probably shooting far less each shoot and also shooting less often, so a big difference in numbers sold We don't actually know the numbers to be fair but even if that is the case it just goes to prove the manufacturers are charging more for pictures, oh and fancy names like Chargealot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anser2 Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 During the early 1970s a box of Eley impax cartridges cost 19s ( about 95p ) and I was earning about £5.50 a week. So the cost of 125 shells was almost a weeks wage. Today a weeks wage would buy over 1250. So today in real terms cartridges are at least 5 times cheaper than they were 50 years ago. When the Eley factory blew up we had a flood of cheap European shells all compeating for the UK market that kept the price very low until the mid 1990s. Recent price rises in raw materials have caused the price to rise sharply , but still in real terms well below the 1960s prices. The number of shells shot at clays far exceeds the number fired at game so the economics of scale come into play here , buying lead\wads\primers in bulk and having long runs without having to alter the factory loading settings. My local gun shop aims to make a 10% profit per box. I suspect that used to be higher as most shops no longer offer discounts for buying 1000 over a single box. The average price of a box of game shells in my area is about £5.70 , but if you shop around you get good shells for just over £4.25 ( 28gr RIO ) and I got some good shells ( Rotwell and Eley ), but from damaged boxes recently at £140 a 1000. I guess the problem is we have a number of fairly new shooters having come into the sport in the past 20 years that got used the the price of cartridges when we were flooded with the very cheap European shells which make todays prices seem higher than they realy are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foggy11 Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 Freight costs have a lot to do with recent price increases also. Plus carriers charge a premium to carry hazardous good , as they line to call them, I'm guessing in the past these charges weren't quite so heavy. But I have to agree, In realty compared to inflation , they are cheeper than they used to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamster Posted February 24, 2012 Report Share Posted February 24, 2012 Sorry but what they used to be has nothing to do with economic realities of modern life. In the 60's shooting was not every mans sport, the guns themselves were so expensive as to make it a very expensive past time. It was mass production and importantly demand that produced competition and thus much cheaper shells. There is absolutely no way you can compare prices then and now in a meaningful way. As I keep mentioning there are hundreds of things that are hundreds of times cheaper now than they were in the 60's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floating Chamber Posted February 24, 2012 Report Share Posted February 24, 2012 (edited) Sorry but what they used to be has nothing to do with economic realities of modern life. In the 60's shooting was not every mans sport, the guns themselves were so expensive as to make it a very expensive past time. It was mass production and importantly demand that produced competition and thus much cheaper shells. There is absolutely no way you can compare prices then and now in a meaningful way. As I keep mentioning there are hundreds of things that are hundreds of times cheaper now than they were in the 60's. ( 'cos they are made by slaves in the Far East!) Italian shells have Italian shot/wads, etc loaded at source in Italy. 'British' shells have, in the main, Italian/French cases/primers, powders, wads, shot carted over here on a relatively small scale compared to the large efficient factories on the Continent. These shells have then to be assembled here. When the shell is loaded, it is half the volume of the components shipped here. One lorry load produces half a lorry load. 'British' cartridge manufacture is a cottage industry (I have seen bigger country houses!) compared to the mega food producing and canning plants. We eat far more beans, etc than we use shells! Edit: And the missus has just told me of a 35% hike in canned goods at Sainsbury's! Things are changing!) Edited February 24, 2012 by Floating Chamber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deershooter Posted February 24, 2012 Report Share Posted February 24, 2012 Floating Chamber is right here, use Google earth to view the address of the three big ones HULL, GAMEBORE amd EXPRESS my engineering factory in Grantham is twice the size of any of them and I only have 6 employees Deershooter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitebridges Posted February 24, 2012 Report Share Posted February 24, 2012 (edited) For what it's worth I don't mind the prices i'm paying at the moment. For years and years prices remained constant £90 - £120 a thou. Clay loads often under £90. Everything has just gone up? One day the Chinese will really stir the market up. I shoot about 4k a year, which is nothing. I buy locally and like a deal if i or friends are buying guns and/or equipment. Most RFD's will tell you they sell cartridges in order to entice folk in to their shop. If you consider the storage space needed for say 50k cartridges it's a good area and rightly they often pass this on to the consumer. Another issue is that some small operators do not have forklift and pallet loading. Moving 50k cartridges off a truck and stacking it is no joke, there is a cost usually. The acid test would be for any of the moaners on here to set up their own cartridge manufacturing business. Off you go,onward and outward to financial ruin. I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole. Caladonian made superb cartridges albeit pricey, they couldn't do it on their own and have recently been taken over by Eley. Edited February 24, 2012 by Whitebridges Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salopian Posted February 24, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2012 Obviously we need to buy Nobelsport then, to save half empty lorries driving from Italy just to supply 3 cottage industry cartridge manufacturers from ripping us off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaserF3 Posted February 24, 2012 Report Share Posted February 24, 2012 Paying 20% vat does us no favours either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamster Posted February 24, 2012 Report Share Posted February 24, 2012 Getting warm but I still don't buy it. VAT is payable either way. So you're saying the home brews are too small to compete? Don't buy it for a minute, for a start they all export too, all one of them would have to do then is sell up all the machinery and bulk order trillions from Italy loaded to our preferred spec, kill the other two or three stone dead and clean up??!! What's to stop someone with zero cartridge experience but good marketing skills to do what I have said then? Import from Italy and kill the local competition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floating Chamber Posted February 24, 2012 Report Share Posted February 24, 2012 Getting warm but I still don't buy it. VAT is payable either way. So you're saying the home brews are too small to compete? Don't buy it for a minute, for a start they all export too, all one of them would have to do then is sell up all the machinery and bulk order trillions from Italy loaded to our preferred spec, kill the other two or three stone dead and clean up??!! What's to stop someone with zero cartridge experience but good marketing skills to do what I have said then? Import from Italy and kill the local competition. Believe me they've tried! What happened to Bornarghi, Gyttorp, Melior, Jailing, Maionchi, Gevelot, Cannuk, Hawk (Poland), HK, Topmark, Euroco, Trust, Interstate, to name a few. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scobydog Posted February 24, 2012 Report Share Posted February 24, 2012 For what it's worth I don't mind the prices i'm paying at the moment. For years and years prices remained constant £90 - £120 a thou. Clay loads often under £90. Everything has just gone up? One day the Chinese will really stir the market up. I shoot about 4k a year, which is nothing. I buy locally and like a deal if i or friends are buying guns and/or equipment. Most RFD's will tell you they sell cartridges in order to entice folk in to their shop. If you consider the storage space needed for say 50k cartridges it's a good area and rightly they often pass this on to the consumer. Another issue is that some small operators do not have forklift and pallet loading. Moving 50k cartridges off a truck and stacking it is no joke, there is a cost usually. The acid test would be for any of the moaners on here to set up their own cartridge manufacturing business. Off you go,onward and outward to financial ruin. I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole. Caladonian made superb cartridges albeit pricey, they couldn't do it on their own and have recently been taken over by Eley. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scobydog Posted February 24, 2012 Report Share Posted February 24, 2012 The Chinese pay @ 10p per round for 7.62 at the ranges, will try to see what sg carts go for, missus in China at the moment and she will ask her contacts. Will be tomorrow before i get a reply. You never know might be worth importing them if quality ok. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamster Posted February 24, 2012 Report Share Posted February 24, 2012 Believe me they've tried! What happened to Bornarghi, Gyttorp, Melior, Jailing, Maionchi, Gevelot, Cannuk, Hawk (Poland), HK, Topmark, Euroco, Trust, Interstate, to name a few. Poor marketing? I mean who'd call a cartridge Gyttorp, Bornaghi, Cannuk, Gevelot, Interstate, Euroco, HK, Jailing for crying out loud for a start? First things first, you start with a home friendly name, like TenX, load English sizes with understandable data and clear packaging, soften up the media with tasty freebie days worth of shoot and goodies ( a couple of thou under the editors arm) ensures a whole lot of initial interest and coverage. Healthy margins for dealers and very competitive prices will keep the orders coming in. Jailing............................. whoever thought that up wants jailing. One had no Gyttorp and go, one was a Bornaghi Chrisitan, one Cannuk shoot to save his life, the other Gevelot o lead to everything :lol: . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miroku50 Posted February 24, 2012 Report Share Posted February 24, 2012 If there is so much profit in making cartridges why dont all the know alls get together go to the bank, and see if you can get them to give you the money to buy one of the big english cart manufactures (yes one has been desperately trying to sell for the last 2 yrs)guess what ? I bet you cant get the money as banks look at accounts ,profits etc not listen to heresay and make belief on forums like this .If any body out there thinks they can make ,advertise market and haul cartridges into shops for less than £115 / thousand (pre vat of course -which adds £23 / 1000 then I sug gest they rent a building buy some machines , book some adverts in expensive mags ,give a load away to sponsored shooters ,buy 200 tonnes of lead etc etc and see how long it takes to go bust!PS another option if u want to get rid of money quick is to draw all your savings out of the bank in £50 notes hire a flat bed wagon, place the money on the back and drive down the motorway at 50 miles an hour -guess what Ill bet it all blows away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poontang Posted February 24, 2012 Report Share Posted February 24, 2012 Poor marketing? I mean who'd call a cartridge Bornaghi, :o Bornaghi steel cartridges are very good. I use them for wildfowling - better than Gamebore and the name's more exotic too!! What's not to like? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floating Chamber Posted February 24, 2012 Report Share Posted February 24, 2012 :o Bornaghi steel cartridges are very good. I use them for wildfowling - better than Gamebore and the name's more exotic too!! What's not to like? They are good shells. As for 'silly' names, who'd call a gun a Purdey? I've said my bit.....if they can't afford to shoot, they should take up knitting. If there is so much profit in making cartridges why dont all the know alls get together go to the bank, and see if you can get them to give you the money to buy one of the big english cart manufactures (yes one has been desperately trying to sell for the last 2 yrs)guess what ? I bet you cant get the money as banks look at accounts ,profits etc not listen to heresay and make belief on forums like this .If any body out there thinks they can make ,advertise market and haul cartridges into shops for less than £115 / thousand (pre vat of course -which adds £23 / 1000 then I sug gest they rent a building buy some machines , book some adverts in expensive mags ,give a load away to sponsored shooters ,buy 200 tonnes of lead etc etc and see how long it takes to go bust!PS another option if u want to get rid of money quick is to draw all your savings out of the bank in £50 notes hire a flat bed wagon, place the money on the back and drive down the motorway at 50 miles an hour -guess what Ill bet it all blows away. Well said that man! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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