pre anti tamper

[evo]

As Dave-G has pointed out, it doesn't matter what power you claim to be using a rifle at, the fact is that if it could exceed the limit then it's illegal unless it's on a FAC. Your argument is the same as having a FAC rifle at 30 ft lb's with an adjuster taking it down to 10 ft lb's, it's still capable of exceeding the limit.

 

You can be fairly sure that if a rifle is taken away and tested then they'll put a very large variety of pellets through it in order to find the maximum it can do, they will be looking as hard as they can to get it over the limit.

 

ok please correct me if i,m wrong :hmm: your saying that,,if i,m using an air rifle and it has been measured that it is producing 11.6ftlb and the rifle is an aa s410 (as an example only) this would need to be on a fac :hmm: this is what your saying isnt it :hmm: because this rifle can be tweeked (if people are idiots) between 1 and 2ftlb more(according to previous posts) then that means the gun shop that sold me this rifle is breaking the law for selling me an illegal air rifle because you did say "if it could exceed the limit then its illegal unless its on a FAC" well i,m sorry bud but i think i,ll have to disagree with that,,i thought the law stated it had to be no more or upto 12ftlb :hmm: before you jump down my throat i am only asking because i am in the market at the moment for either a daystate or an aa s510 sub 12ftlb and if these can be tuned above 12ftlb then i cant buy one :hmm: NOW I REALLY AM CONFUSED :yes:

[Dave-G]

That's not what he was saying evo. He's saying that my reply to MM's post is how it comes out in the wash. No-one has said it needs to be on an FAC.

 

If YOU only use lightweight pellets, and achieve say 11.9 ftlb but the tester uses heavier - or the heaviest he can find - or is requested to get - or just bloody mindedly wants to use, and acheives 12.1 ftlb the rifle has been proved capable of exceeding 12 ftlb. Most plod couldn't give a stuff what power your sub 12 ftlb rated rifle is. They don't go round looking over hedges for air rifle shooters - nor use the force ecilopter to find us. They don't care.... unless they need to care for some reason after a person comes onto their radar. It's then down to how strong the radar blip is.

 

I can't recall specific details of the case which was discussed at great length on the BBS but it goes along the lines of the following loose story, going by my memory and interpretation of events, which may be flawed in accuracy... so don't take the following as a quote.

 

A guy is reputed to 'tune air rifles - and it seems it was thought he was tuning them to the hotter side. Plod wanted a conviction and an end to his tuning so the instructions to the testing lab went along the lines of "do whatever it takes to make that rifle capable" I believe the rifle in question was in parts on a workbench when siezed - IE it was not even a complete rifle.

 

The rifle was further dismantled, valving and other components were deliberately replaced to put the rifle over 12 ftlb. The rifle was subsequently found to be capable of exceeding 12 ftlb and chappy got time (I think) That case set a legal precedent that pcp air rifle are 'capable'

 

I think it opened a huge can of worms for plod because it now means that hundreds of thousands of PCP's are effectively unlicenced section one's. But it is too big to be addressed. I suspect that it will likely only be employed in extreme cases where plod needs a bit more muscle flexing than usual.

 

Most people going about their lawful shooting will have little to worry about unless plod has reason to suspect something is not as it should be - attitude test possibly included.

[NIGHT SEARCHER]

Anti tamper is mostly that the screws that hold all the metal and moving parts of a gun are counter sunk then a steel or alloy cap is pressed in over the screw heads so you can`t get at them. Most gun shops now have to send any air arms repairs back to AA, If you drill the caps out it will void any warranty left on the gun. Everybody is going on about power i have a HW 100 that was doing 11.7 ftlb out of the box from hull cartridge after a few thousand pellets and a number of clean and oil sessions i put it through the crono to find it doing 12.5 ftlb and not dieseling. So i phoned a few gun shops and was told it would be best to send it to hull cartridge, Approximate price of a £100 to repair. After looking on the web its a very common problem with the HW100 after bedding in. So i drilled out the anti tampers and backed of the hammer spring. She is very happy now doing 11.8 with RWS superfield. I have a very good friend who works in for the police on fire arms and ballistics i asked him whats the crack when testing air riflels. He told me that they test a rifle with the pellets that the gun was picked up with. They used to test with wasps blue tin but with so many pellets out there now they test with what was seized with the rifle. He said what with napier power lube and thunderbolts a 10 ftlb rifle could go over 12 ftlb So its only fair to test with what was being used. Theres a new pellet in the USA thats gold plated and is so slick down the barrel they are calling them sonic because of the crack when it leaves the barrel. No ****.

[Dave-G]

Anti tamper is mostly that the screws that hold all the metal and moving parts of a gun are counter sunk then a steel or alloy cap is pressed in over the screw heads so you can`t get at them. Most gun shops now have to send any air arms repairs back to AA, If you drill the caps out it will void any warranty left on the gun. Everybody is going on about power i have a HW 100 that was doing 11.7 ftlb out of the box from hull cartridge after a few thousand pellets and a number of clean and oil sessions i put it through the crono to find it doing 12.5 ftlb and not dieseling. So i phoned a few gun shops and was told it would be best to send it to hull cartridge, Approximate price of a £100 to repair. After looking on the web its a very common problem with the HW100 after bedding in. So i drilled out the anti tampers and backed of the hammer spring. She is very happy now doing 11.8 with RWS superfield. I have a very good friend who works in for the police on fire arms and ballistics i asked him whats the crack when testing air riflels. He told me that they test a rifle with the pellets that the gun was picked up with. They used to test with wasps blue tin but with so many pellets out there now they test with what was seized with the rifle. He said what with napier power lube and thunderbolts a 10 ftlb rifle could go over 12 ftlb So its only fair to test with what was being used. Theres a new pellet in the USA thats gold plated and is so slick down the barrel they are calling them sonic because of the crack when it leaves the barrel. No ****.

 

That would be a welcome policy if it was applied across the entire country - but you can bet 10~1 that some forces will not apply that practical consideration.

[Dave-G]

Here is a link to the BBS thread about that testing issue where the lab wilfully tampered with a gun to take it over power. It's in the members section so if you aint a member you won't be able to read it.

 

http://www.airgunbbs.com/showthread.php?490455-the-beginining-of-the-end-of-our-sport&highlight=capable+forensic

 

And some on this forum:

 

http://forums.pigeonwatch.co.uk/forums/index.php?/topic/164219-electrical-air-rifles/

 

EDIT: Doh - forgot the link.

Edited May 13, 2012 by Dave-G

[guinty1]

sorry cant see any link?

[jackinbox99]

can someone please explain about the anti tamper on an air rifle, (air arms S410)

 

thanks, steve

 

A lot of people have jumped on this and assumed the guy was asking because he wanted to tweek his gun over the legal limit.

 

From my experiences of s410`s, ive had 2 mates who have had the anti tamper ones and both were only pushing between 9ft/lb and 10ft/lb on a good day. In that situation with a pre-anti tamper one it allows you to fine tune the power slightly and set it to something higher but within the limit like 11.3ft/lb. If you have the anti-tamper model then its usually a case of sending it off to a gunsmith or Air Arms, paying a small fee and letting them do it for you.

 

Of course, id only ever recommend doing this if you have a chrono so you can see exactly what you are doing.

[Amazed]

The main problem is the law is unclear and has been written to purposely be like that and is open to interpretation.

I dought very much if your gun was under the said Limit and had the anti tamper removed say for some light adjustment, to aid your sport and the clean kill of an animal you were where you should be and acting acording to law they should have no intrest in your shiny nut on the side of your gun. After all if you put an cap head bolt in its place and paint mark it. Is it not the same thing ?

my car is capable of doing way in exsess of 70 mph the legal limet in britain on the moterway, it's up to me and my responsibility to keep it under controle and below the Limet. Does this not sound similar ?

[r_haines666]

i know cleveland police test the rifle with the pellets it was seized with

[Jega]

 

 

Right to put this to bed once and for all,

 

1 Requirement of firearm certificate..

 

(1)Subject to any exemption under this Act, it is an offence for a person— .

(a)to have in his possession, or to purchase or acquire, a firearm to which this section applies without holding a firearm certificate in force at the time, or otherwise than as authorised by such a certificate;

 

(b)an air weapon (that is to say, an air rifle, air gun or air pistol [F2which does not fall within section 5(1) and which is] not of a type declared by rules made by the Secretary of State under section 53 of this Act to be specially dangerous).

 

and

 

The Firearms (Dangerous Air Weapons) Rules 1969

 

Made

13th January 1969

 

Coming into Operation

1st May 1969

 

In pursuance of sections 1(3) and 53 of the Firearms Act 1968, I hereby make the following Rules:— .

1.—(1) These Rules may be cited as the Firearms (Dangerous Air Weapons) Rules 1969.

(2) These Rules shall not extend to Scotland.

(3) The Interpretation Act 1889 applies for the interpretation of these Rules as it applies for the interpretation of an Act of Parliament.

(4) These Rules shall come into operation on 1st May 1969.

2.—(1) Subject to paragraph (2) below, Rule 3 of these Rules applies to an air weapon (that is to say, an air rifle, air gun or air pistol) capable of discharging a missile so that the missile has, on being discharged from the muzzle of the weapon, kinetic energy in excess, in the case of an air pistol, of 6 ft. lb. or, in the case of an air weapon other than an air pistol, of 12 ft. lb. (2) Rule 3 of these Rules does not apply to a weapon designed for use only when submerged in water.

3. An air weapon to which this Rule applies is hereby declared to be specially dangerous.

 

You will note the highlighting of the word 'capable'

 

But, first, if you possess a firearm that is not specifically exempt from the rules, then you need a certificate.

If you possess a S.1 firearm without a certificate, or an exemption, you commit a criminal offence. There is no defence. There are circumstances where the police and CPS may decide to take no action, but the offence is committed.

 

Now, examine the text around the highlighted word 'capable', above.

 

Nowhere does it specify the type of pellet used. Nowhere does it specify that it must be in the state in which it was found. Nowhere does it specify any type of test that must be carried out. Most importantly, it does not specify any relevance to what the airgun is shooting at the time. Just 'capable' nothing else. So, who decides what that means? Answer, and a very easy one, the court hearing the case decides. Not the police. Not the CPS. Not any trade organisation. Not any magazine writer. And not you (whoever you are). It's the court. And how does the court decide? It listens to the facts presented, and facts they will be, and make up their mind in accordance with the law, which is quite simple. All the essentials are in the two quotes above.

 

If the police decide to take a case, they have to prove the following beyond reasonable doubt.

 

1. That you had possession of the gun. You are in Blackpool sunning yourself. The gun is in a cabinet in your home in Norwich. You are in possession of the gun.

 

2. That the gun is capable of exceeding the permitted muzzle energy.

 

3. That you have no exemption or certificate.

 

Do those three and you're goose is cooked.

 

Also worth bearing in mind is the fact that few if any police forces have their own forensic support services any more ,they have pretty much all been out sourced to the private sector who's sole interest is profit related successful prosecutions .

 

 

 

[Clint1]

What would really 'put this to bed' would be actual evidence from someone who has actually been convicted and been punished for the aforementioned crime(s). I have worked in the criminal justice system for sometime and never come across anyone who has been jailed for possessing/using an overpowered airgun.

Just sayin'

[jackinbox99]

What would really 'put this to bed' would be actual evidence from someone who has actually been convicted and been punished for the aforementioned crime(s). I have worked in the criminal justice system for sometime and never come across anyone who has been jailed for possessing/using an overpowered airgun.

Just sayin'

 

Ive heard various "stories" posted on forums about people being done or police spending hours testing air rifles etc. etc. but agree with you, id love to see some actual evidence of someone getting done for an overpower air rifle. In my opinion id have hoped that police would be more interested in pursuing dangerous criminals rather than someone whose air rifle is slightly over the limit.

[jackinbox99]

Saying that, ive just done a bit of googling and found one case of a guy who apparently bought a PCP air rifle from a boot sale for £500 and apparently didnt know it was over the limit. Police confiscated it, tested it and it was over the limit so jailed him for 9 months.

 

http://www.burtonmai...rats-jailed.htm

 

Not sure about anyone else, but id be very wary full stop of buying something like that for £500 from a boot sale as thats a lot of money to fork out on something you dont know if its any good or not!

 

Another news report here of a guy being done for not only having an illegal home made .22rf pistol with expanding ammo, but he also had an over powered air rifle...

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-west-wales-18926997

Edited September 14, 2012 by jackinbox99

[Angelfire1]

"As Dave-G has pointed out, it doesn't matter what power you claim to be using a rifle at, the fact is that if it COULD EXCEED THE LIMIT then it's illegal unless it's on a FAC. Your argument is the same as having a FAC rifle at 30 ft lb's with an adjuster taking it down to 10 ft lb's, it's still capable of exceeding the limit."

So coming back into my childhood hobby of airgunning after 60 years, I was a Shotgun Cert and FAC holder for decades, I read the above post with a bit of a worry. My newly acquired AGT Vixen like the vast majority of Pre Charged air rifles can be purchased as a rifle that needs an FAC if you desire to shoot over 12 ftlb. 

So then, is everyone in the country who owns a pre charged air rifle shooting at 11 ftlb liable to prosecution because their rifle could exceed the 12 ftlb limit. That's simply insane.

[Ultrastu]

Easily adjustable  is the wording .

Not  - requires a days work by a gunsmith - capable eventually .

[enfieldspares]

I hope the OP has resolved in concerns in the ten years since he posted his worry?

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Gordon Bennett!    

[JKD]

1 hour ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Gordon Bennett!    

So ,,,, what is anti tamper ? No, really,,,, I just don't get it !? 🥴🙈😘🥳😖

Just as a slight swerve off topic,,,, there's some amazing usernames in this thread 😂🤓🤷🙄🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣😱😇🍻

[Biffo1262]

If you want to repair your gun for the sake of an O ring you have to remove the action anti-tamper plugs.  You do not need to touch the power adjuster anti-tamper at all.  The action has four Allen bolts on the S4** two on top and two underneath.  You have to very carefully drill or preferably mill a 6mm hole in the centre of the two aluminium discs to access the heads of the other two Allen bolts.  Carefully as you do not want to damage the heads of the bolts beneath. Doing this in no way affects the power it simply gives you access to replace your seals.  It has to be one of the simplest guns ever made to work on....a DIY dream. You are not legally required to replace the plugs you drilled.

[Biffo1262]

On 13/05/2012 at 16:34, Dave-G said:

 

That would be a welcome policy if it was applied across the entire country - but you can bet 10~1 that some forces will not apply that practical consideration.

Actually a high court judge made it case law that the gun can only be tested with ANY of the pellets IN YOUR POSSESSION at the time regardless of whether you have been using them or not.  I think that's fair. Just don't carry any pellet you wouldn't normally use that might make your gun cross the line.  Case law applies in all of the police forces in the country it applies to but best to get a lawyer that specialises in shooting sports just to be safe.