Expired certificates and remaining in possession of your firearms: the

[JonathanL]

As this is a subject which has been done over and over again here, I think it's worth making mention of the fact that the Home Office have published their opinion and advice on the matter in their latest guidance manual.

 

From the chapter on FAC's:

 

"10.56 If a certificate expires before a renewed certificate has been issued and the certificate holder has behaved in a reasonable manner returning the forms in good time, a temporary permit (Section 7 Permit) should be issued by default."

Posted in the hope that it might finally dawn on certain people that the police can not (and never could) advise you to remain in possession of firearms if your cert has expired unless they issue a temporary permit.

J.

[la bala]

that kinder raps it up.

[welshwarrior]

If they won't issue the section 7 ask them to pay for any storage charges normally get one issued ASAP.

[Livefast123]

At least it is there is black and white now!

[Steel100]

It always was in black and white; people (mainly the police) just ignored the law because it was convenient for them and they didn't need to live with the consequences of being in illegal possession.

 

Incidentally, some of the 'new' Guidance is actually something of an improvement on what we had before, still a work in progress, though.

 

Andy

[team tractor]

I tried asking for one but Staffordshire wouldn't at the time. She told me to stock up and wait (4 months )

My fac was only 5 weeks start to finish

[ordnance]

 

a temporary permit (Section 7 Permit) should be issued by default

It says that a section 7 permit should be issued. But does not say what happens or what you should do if It isn't is it illegal etc.

[Steel100]

No valid certificate (or permit) means illegal possession, unless you are exempt from the requirement to have a certificate. The police have no authority to say otherwise.

 

The only other legal option is for the guns to be stored by an RFD or other suitably certified person. E.G if you new someone who had a spare 'slot' on their FAC, they could hold the gun for you. Not an option for those of us with quite a few guns!

 

Andy

[bostonmick]

I am not all that up on this subject but am I correct in thinking that if you took your guns to a rfd you would in effect have to hand ownership of them over to them as you can only leave guns with someone for long periods of time

[Steel100]

Bostonmick,

NO. YOU retain title unless you say otherwise. They are your property. You are simply having someone (who has legal authority) to store them. Be aware, it may be quite expensive £'s per gun per week. Discuss this with local rfd's to suss out the best price. If the police have been slow in re-issuing a certificate you might have a case for charging them for storage. If you are a member of BASC or similar, have a chat with them.

 

If you are just talking about shotguns and not rifles, it would be easier and cheaper to work out a deal with a friend or friends who have SGCs and 'lend' the guns to them. Once your sgc is re-issued they could then write them back on to your certificate.

 

All the best

 

Andy

[Scully]

Was given a S7 permit by my FEO without even asking at last renewal when he called in to check security.He informed me it was valid for posession only and didn't authorise me to buy ammo but if I needed to buy more he could give me back my expiring tickets as he had them on him in my file folder.

Hadn't realised up 'til then that the handing in of valid but expiring tickets wasn't compulsory.He had every ticket in that folder I've ever had.Will be keeping mine in future and may ask if I can have all the others back also.

[jimmyb79]

Interestingly, when Kent police sent me my renewal letter, it said that providing i sent in my renewal form before the expiry date, i would not be illegally possessing my shotguns...

[Steel100]

jimmyb79

 

Kent are talking utter nonsense! I live in South Yorkshire and they used to insist the same.

 

Andy

[Redgum]

Just recieved my new license today, it expires today so a bit of a sweat on. Rang my FEO last week and he told me to call him today and if nobody had contacted me to visit he would sent me a S7. Rang this morning and my new license was put on FEO's desk and he popped it into me on his way home from work. Interestingly the FEO told me that the new license was issued as soon as the old one ran out so if there had been a delay in the FEO getting it to me it would not have mattered as the new license was on the system.

[markreed]

received my coterminous today filled in just got to go to my 2 refs in morning will be off tommorow due to expire on the 11/10 i have put in for a 223 wonder how fast south yorks is going to be i might run a sweepstake i wonder if i get it for easter

Edited August 27, 2013 by markreed

[JonathanL]

It says that a section 7 permit should be issued. But does not say what happens or what you should do if It isn't is it illegal etc.

 

Yes it's illegal, That's why they are saying that a section 7 permit should be issued to prevent the person being in unlawful possession.

 

J.

[JonathanL]

Just recieved my new license today, it expires today so a bit of a sweat on. Rang my FEO last week and he told me to call him today and if nobody had contacted me to visit he would sent me a S7. Rang this morning and my new license was put on FEO's desk and he popped it into me on his way home from work. Interestingly the FEO told me that the new license was issued as soon as the old one ran out so if there had been a delay in the FEO getting it to me it would not have mattered as the new license was on the system.

 

This is wrong too. The new FAC runs from the day it was issued, not the date on which the old one expired. Again, covered in the guidance somewhere.

 

J.

Edited August 28, 2013 by JonathanL

[Harnser]

It says should and not must .

Harnser.

[CharlieT]

 

This is wrong too. The new FAC runs from the day it was issued, not the date on which the old one expired. Again, covered in the guidance somewhere.

 

J.

Are you sure ?

All my renewed FAC's going back many years show a different "from" date to "issue" date. The "from" date being the expiry of the previous one.

[malantone]

just had my fac and sc renewed, the FEO and myself had overlapping holidays during which my certs ran out, before I went away he issued me with Temporary certs to cover the time we were away and the following two weeks during which my new ones arrived.

 

GOD BLESS CUMBRIA

[JonathanL]

It says should and not must .

Harnser.

 

It also uses the phrase "by default" which is pretty robust. It means that it must be done, to all intents and purposes.

 

The context though is that if it is not then the applicant will be in illegal possession of his guns when his cert runs out. You have to read between the lines a bit. It is the Home Office's way of saying "If a certificate has expired then the person can not legally remain in possession of the guns unless a section 7 permit is issued."

 

J.

Edited August 29, 2013 by JonathanL

[wymberley]

 

It also uses the phrase "by default" which is pretty robust. It means that it must be done, to all intents and purposes.

 

The context though is that if it is not then the applicant will be in illegal possession of his guns when his cert runs out. You have to read between the lines a bit. It is the Home Office's way of saying "If a certificate has expired then the person can not legally remain in possession of the guns unless a section 7 permit is issued."

 

J.

It also depends on the current legal status of the word, 'should'. This is just a different tense of, 'shall' which historically means, 'must'.

[Penelope]

Oh, they have tried, indeed they have.

 

I demanded a section 7, or would take it further if not issued one. Surprisingly got my new cert through two days before a goose shooting trip to Scotland. This would have been early 90's.

 

As this is a subject which has been done over and over again here, I think it's worth making mention of the fact that the Home Office have published their opinion and advice on the matter in their latest guidance manual.

 

From the chapter on FAC's:

 

"10.56 If a certificate expires before a renewed certificate has been issued and the certificate holder has behaved in a reasonable manner returning the forms in good time, a temporary permit (Section 7 Permit) should be issued by default."

 

Posted in the hope that it might finally dawn on certain people that the police can not (and never could) advise you to remain in possession of firearms if your cert has expired unless they issue a temporary permit.

 

J.

Edited August 29, 2013 by Penelope

[JonathanL]

Are you sure ?

All my renewed FAC's going back many years show a different "from" date to "issue" date. The "from" date being the expiry of the previous one.

 

Yes, it's mentioned in the new guidance.

 

Having thought about it, it's the only way it could logically operate. When a certificate expires then any legal authority or weight it carried ceases. You can't back date something and make something legal when the legal authority didn't exist at the earlier point. The date of new cert may well be the expiry date of the old one but only where the old one did not expire before the new one obtained approval.

 

J.

[al4x]

 

Yes, it's mentioned in the new guidance.

 

Having thought about it, it's the only way it could logically operate. When a certificate expires then any legal authority or weight it carried ceases. You can't back date something and make something legal when the legal authority didn't exist at the earlier point. The date of new cert may well be the expiry date of the old one but only where the old one did not expire before the new one obtained approval.

 

J.

 

 

You obviously know something the police don't J as every peoson I know including myself who has had a "technical" gap has had a certificate dated from the expiry of the previous one. Mine was 2 months many moons back and I hadn't had the interview by the time it expired so that would suggest you are just making that conclusion up.