Government loses the vote on Syria.

[overandunder2012]

 

Thought I would never see a world war for myself,, Maybe I was Wrong, and not so wise after all:

it started years ago just nobodys said it yet

[GingerCat]

Same as its easy to sit a say we should go to war when it won't be you going to die or you getting bombed. No this shouldn't be happening but it is, always has and always will as that's the nature of the area only thing that changes is the weapons they use.

 

Im with putin on this here is no proof Assad napalmed them poor people the same as there is no proof the freedom terrorists didn't do it to prompt this reaction.

Last I heard the rebels didn't have air power and certainly not napalm.

They also didn't have the media to spin such a story when watched by the world's eye.

If your worrying about who will pay for it worry not, you already have. If your worrying about the boys and girls on the ground worry not, they already have and are still there.

If you worry about your conscious about what's the right thing or not to do, worry not, its already obvious to everyone that states cannot kill people especially by these means and stand the next day pleading innocence.

If however you think this is a good time to score points on another political party then think again, people need you help, they needed it a long time ago, washing your hands is pathetic, last time I swore an oath it was great Britain, now from reading these forum's its little Britain and we don't want to play, ever. Too expensive, lets go home, its warm and has chairs.

I am a political, I do not care who is in power, whatvi do care about is people we could help being left behind whilst we **** about moaning about what should happen by other people who don't do anyting ever.

If you don't like it then tough, join the real world I live in and see what I see, you Might not like it as its not very comfortable but its the reality and you should get used to it, thwres a lot more to come.

Rant over.

[Gimlet]

Last I heard the rebels didn't have air power and certainly not napalm.

They also didn't have the media to spin such a story when watched by the world's eye.

If your worrying about who will pay for it worry not, you already have. If your worrying about the boys and girls on the ground worry not, they already have and are still there.

If you worry about your conscious about what's the right thing or not to do, worry not, its already obvious to everyone that states cannot kill people especially by these means and stand the next day pleading innocence.

If however you think this is a good time to score points on another political party then think again, people need you help, they needed it a long time ago, washing your hands is pathetic, last time I swore an oath it was great Britain, now from reading these forum's its little Britain and we don't want to play, ever. Too expensive, lets go home, its warm and has chairs.

I am a political, I do not care who is in power, whatvi do care about is people we could help being left behind whilst we **** about moaning about what should happen by other people who don't do anyting ever.

If you don't like it then tough, join the real world I live in and see what I see, you Might not like it as its not very comfortable but its the reality and you should get used to it, thwres a lot more to come.

Rant over.

 

Ahem.. Yes.. But its not a case of can't be bothered. The point, or at least my point, is that Western military intervention is going to make things worse. It will ensure more people are killed, not fewer. They'll just be killed by foreign Islamist fascist instead of Baath party Stalinists and by American depleted uranium shells instead of Russian nerve gas. My exasperation with British/American military adventurism is its childish naivety. Its the armed equivalent of new age protesting. We turn up shouting moral outrage and hurling blood and treasure around until we've got it out of our system, and when we've run out of money and clean underwear we slink off home kidding ourselves we've made a difference when all we've done is leave a bloody awful mess behind that other people will have to live with. The middle east has been under colonial rule of one sort or another practically since the crusades. And every time something happens we apply another dose of the same medicine. No wonder they hate us. I would. The west created the conditions that lead to this conflict and yet we persist in the delusion that repeating the same pattern often enough will one day produce a different result. It won't.

[Malik]

if america wants to play world police, why has it not tackled north korea yet? Only country threatening nuclear action against its enemies. The only country that has prison camps like WW2! The list of human rights violations is every long one and most people know how bad the place is.

 

Syria isnt a threat to us. Its never has been really. America wanting western influence in the region is the only thing i can think of

[junctiontwo]

Is there any real point in the US & France striking now anyway?

 

By the time it gets to Congress any established targets, both military AND personnel, would've been moved well out of harms way. Destroying a couple of empty buildings & storage sheds won't really achieve a great deal......

[matone]

All of those Arab countries are full of rabble,it takes a pretty nasty man at the top to keep control .

Look what`s happened where we`ve removed the nasty men elsewhere !

[pimpkiller]

Im glad of the way the vote has gone, as a country that has to import most of everything such as oil, gas and food to survive and all the companies are foreign owned i wouldnt be rocking the boat when dealing with countries like russia, china and the middle east.

[Reece]

 

Ahem.. Yes.. But its not a case of can't be bothered. The point, or at least my point, is that Western military intervention is going to make things worse. It will ensure more people are killed, not fewer. They'll just be killed by foreign Islamist fascist instead of Baath party Stalinists and by American depleted uranium shells instead of Russian nerve gas. My exasperation with British/American military adventurism is its childish naivety. Its the armed equivalent of new age protesting. We turn up shouting moral outrage and hurling blood and treasure around until we've got it out of our system, and when we've run out of money and clean underwear we slink off home kidding ourselves we've made a difference when all we've done is leave a bloody awful mess behind that other people will have to live with. The middle east has been under colonial rule of one sort or another practically since the crusades. And every time something happens we apply another dose of the same medicine. No wonder they hate us. I would. The west created the conditions that lead to this conflict and yet we persist in the delusion that repeating the same pattern often enough will one day produce a different result. It won't.

 

Quite right.

 

Limited strikes to deter chemical weapons use - what if they don't work and chemical attacks continue? We'd have to keep striking and that would lead to mission creep.

 

Libya style intervention - Syria has better air defences than Libya and would be much better at fighting back.

 

Arming rebels - how exactly do you keep weapons out of the hands of extremists who now dominate Syria's front lines?

 

Anything which will lead to regime change being achieved militarily is a bad idea. Al Qaeda would have a stronghold close to Europe. Minorities in Syria would be slaughtered. Syria would likely end up like Somalia, with different factions of the rebels fighting each other.

 

Limited strikes would also escalate the situation as Assad's allies would respond, such as with more military support.

 

There is nothing we can do militarily that will make things better and not worse.

 

I think this man explains it very well:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpG6FOBZXGo

 

The only chance we have of solving this crisis is diplomatically, not militarily. And even that isn't without its problems.

[al4x]

Is there any real point in the US & France striking now anyway?

 

By the time it gets to Congress any established targets, both military AND personnel, would've been moved well out of harms way. Destroying a couple of empty buildings & storage sheds won't really achieve a great deal......

It depends if it keeps the fighting to conventional weapons rather than nerve gasses and napalm. It's meant to be a deterrent rather than anything else, this war has been going on a fair while now and we haven't intervened which is why as Assad has started to loose control he has used them and their use will get more widespread as he gets away with it.

[ack-ack]

and the same french that were selling exocets to the argentines before and during the falklands...albeit... the last batch ..they were persuded not to hand over the activation codes

 

The french are up to something, cant figure it out yet...proberly something to do with trade

 

Heard an interesting story the other day about the frogs from a diary written by one of their own......jean paul sartrre.........

 

in 1939 when war was declared a large part of the french army was sent to the german franco boarder to face the boche......the french populace was evacuated 10 mies away from the boarder....the invasion never came that way...but the army stayed there............

 

reason......

 

the army had looted their own peoples houses, thinking that the impending battle would cover it up..(which never came)...the govt found out and left the army there to stop the people returning to find out what their army had done......

 

I was not aware of the sartre revellation, most intetesting.

[four-wheel-drive]

I do not like the way people pick and choose what countries to (help) if you can call it that when African gangs go around choping peoples lims off and raping all of the women and kill thousends of inocent people that is ok but somehow a few people get gassed and people want to bomb them most of the time all that we do is make things worst for people.

[junctiontwo]

I do not like the way people pick and choose what countries to (help) if you can call it that when African gangs go around choping peoples lims off and raping all of the women and kill thousends of inocent people that is ok but somehow a few people get gassed and people want to bomb them most of the time all that we do is make things worst for people.

 

Actually a very good point!

[subsonicnat]

All of those Arab countries are full of rabble,it takes a pretty nasty man at the top to keep control .

Look what`s happened where we`ve removed the nasty men elsewhere !

Yes, just take a look at Egypt. Cannot make their minds up, iraq is another waiting to blow up once we have left.

It seems they only recognize the iron fist that has ruled them for almost generations, Saddam had them locked down, Assad has them locked down, Iran, Saudi Arabia, North Korea, You can go on and on.. Freedom does not come easily to any country that has been oppressed, The fear is still there, then they do not know who to trust..

We could say we have had a touch of it with Blaire, should have been tried for crimes (A lot of people died for nothing)..

If Saddam had, Had, Weapons of mass distruction on a large scale he would have used them..

Do we trust the goverment to tell us the truth, (NO).. Baire has a lot to answer for worldwide, never mind about this country, Notice how he left this country MID TERM,

It was a Rat leaving a sinking ship.. Rant Over:

[keg]

The US hypocrisy is pretty astounding.

 

They murdered hundreds of thousands of civilians in their 'shock and awe' campaign in Iraq and, even now, hundreds of Pakistani women, children and old men are being killed daily by US drone attacks in Pakistan and we're not even at war with Pakistan.

Whether it's chemicals or Hellfires you're still dead or maimed.

 

Syria is part of the line of countries, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan and Pakistan which are between Russia and Saudi Arabia so it's my belief that all the various groups are being supplied, wound up then let loose to fight proxy wars on behalf of the 'superpowers' to try to control access to oil.

If Russia is supplying Assad's regime then it's in the US interest to depose Assad or at least destabilise the country to the point where it's ungovernable.

 

Like Iraq is now with countless bombings and killings every day because of the political vacuum caused by the US.

 

It's all very well voting to take action against Syria but don't for get that every action causes a reaction. When the bombs start going off in London, Birmingham or Bradford in revenge then there'll be a weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Agree with not getting involved but is the US really killing 100s of innocents every day? surely this would get reported?.

[ordnance]

 

The US hypocrisy is pretty astounding.

 

They murdered hundreds of thousands of civilians in their 'shock and awe' campaign in Iraq and, even now, hundreds of Pakistani women, children and old men are being killed daily by US drone attacks in Pakistan and we're not even at war with Pakistan.

Have you statistics to back up your claims. I would be interested to see them or is just another post making claims without any evidence.

Edited September 1, 2013 by ordnance

[Malik]

Have you statistics to back up your claims. I would be interested to see them or is just another post making claims without any evidence.

It is true and so is the bit about pakistan. There was a US drone attack yesterday. Which i add, is giving the taliban popularity in the region... and a very anti american mood.

 

He also didnt mention the side effects of iraqi woman and children that were effected by US depleted uranium tank rounds or the burn victims of phosphorous useage from US combat forces.

 

A quick google has all the evidence you require.

[kdubya]

It is true and so is the bit about pakistan. There was a US drone attack yesterday. Which i add, is giving the taliban popularity in the region... and a very anti american mood.

 

He also didnt mention the side effects of iraqi woman and children that were effected by US depleted uranium tank rounds or the burn victims of phosphorous useage from US combat forces.

 

A quick google has all the evidence you require.

perhaps if the treacherous Pakistanis did not allow the Taliban to train, group up and enter Afghanistan to attack coalition forces then the Americans would not need to hit military targets in Pakistan, and any civilian lives lost (thanks to the Taliban using civilians as shields) would be unnecessary.

 

 

KW

[henry d]

I was not aware of the sartre revellation, most intetesting.

 

Nor I and as yet I cannot find anything to back it up

[truflex]

Hope they bomb at night. Can't wait to see what it looks like on my 47" Full HD LG and full surround sound.

[henry d]

Hope they bomb at night. Can't wait to see what it looks like on my 47" Full HD LG and full surround sound.

 

Seriously...

 

 

....sick.

[keg]

I think if nothing else, humanitarian support would be a good step.

 

The problem with our US "cousins" is they never seem to think beyond the initial attack.

[welsh1]

Hope they bomb at night. Can't wait to see what it looks like on my 47" Full HD LG and full surround sound.

 

 

 

Seriously...

 

 

....sick.

I think that was totally tongue in cheek

[Gimlet]

Yes, just take a look at Egypt. Cannot make their minds up, iraq is another waiting to blow up once we have left.

It seems they only recognize the iron fist that has ruled them for almost generations, Saddam had them locked down, Assad has them locked down, Iran, Saudi Arabia, North Korea, You can go on and on.. Freedom does not come easily to any country that has been oppressed, The fear is still there, then they do not know who to trust..

We could say we have had a touch of it with Blaire, should have been tried for crimes (A lot of people died for nothing)..

If Saddam had, Had, Weapons of mass distruction on a large scale he would have used them..

Do we trust the goverment to tell us the truth, (NO).. Baire has a lot to answer for worldwide, never mind about this country, Notice how he left this country MID TERM,

It was a Rat leaving a sinking ship.. Rant Over:

 

The middle East is the old meeting place of east and west. A buffer zone where the old imperial hemisheres of Europe/America and Russia come to glare at each other. Much of the region is comprised not of properly socially and politically evolved countries but a collection of artificial constructs drawn from a post-imperial carve-up that occurred after the fall of the Ottoman Empire following the first world war. Borders were arbitrarily drawn by western powers, populations that had been held together by tribal and religious allegiences were split apart, uncharted historic territories were reallocated at the stroke of a bureaucrat's pen, and it that were not enough, Israel was parachuted into the middle of it. Then some fool discovered oil. It is not surprising the area is such a mess. The imperial powers of the day have used the middle east as an arena where they act out their power struggles. It is utterly indefensible that this is still going on. Much has been made in the press in Britain, Europe and the US of the "victory" that Britain's rejection of military intervention has handed to President Putin. It astonishes me that otherwise intelligent people are still discussing this part of the world in old imperial terms, in language that should have been obsolete 90 years ago. This is the Grand Game all over again. We would not be intervening to protect civilians, however we try to kid ourselves, but to protect some imagined prestige and preserve an outdated international pecking order. Dress it up how we will, this would be no humanitarian mission. This is a macabre pantomime. The powers of east and west are trying to ensure "their" guy wins, with the process impotently refereed by the UN. To paraphrase Ronald Reagan, he may be a son-of-a-bitch but at least he'll be our son-of-a-bitch. Its dispicable.

If we really want to stop these perennial conflagrations in the middle east, at some point Europe Moscow and Washington will have to face up to the fact that we are living in the 21st centuary, not the nineteenth and this region does not belong to us. It never did. We have no right to decide its future. International militarism is the direct cause of much of the region's misery, not the solution. If the old world really wants to help it will restrict itself to offering unified and non-partisan humanitarian and diplomatic assistance. But I won't hold my breath.

[ditchman]

 

Nor I and as yet I cannot find anything to back it up

 

 

 

i was listening to an interview on local radio about it....apparently the diaries that had been written by him covering the 1939 period have just been released for publication, they had been viewed very recently, so im not surprised you cant find anything to back it up at the moment, i rekon they (whoevever they are) thought it was a little sensitive to release until now.........i will see if i can find out anymore...if you find anything let me know

 

regards

 

ditch

Edited September 1, 2013 by ditchman

[Malik]

perhaps if the treacherous Pakistanis did not allow the Taliban to train, group up and enter Afghanistan to attack coalition forces then the Americans would not need to hit military targets in Pakistan, and any civilian lives lost (thanks to the Taliban using civilians as shields) would be unnecessary.

 

 

KW

It doesnt quite work like that.

 

The IRA resided amongst the civilian population. I didnt recall the british bombing everyone and blaming them?

 

Here is an example. If someone who is the enemy is hiding behind an innocent civilian. And then you go ahead and shoot the civilian as well as your enemy. Not only is it reckless, its also your fault you shot the innocent civilian. No one made you kill them, they also weren't a threat to you.

 

Pakistanis in general do not like the Taliban. You may not be aware but the Taliban bomb pakistan daily too. However some individuals that are completely innocent who have their house and family blown up by a US drone attacks are then filled with hatred towards america for what they have done... Then side to fight them away... Giving the Taliban more momentum