No5 steel shot

[wildfowler.250]

I suppose the folk that go for the larger shot sizes are thinking more for the longer shots. On average most duck are shot at around 35 yard mark when wildfowling,(most normal loads at this range are fine). But if one comes over 55 yards up I just like to have a bit more steel to throw at it

[Penelope]

If it comes over at 55 yards, I'll just leave it.

 

IMO a wing and a prayer shot.

 

I suppose the folk that go for the larger shot sizes are thinking more for the longer shots. On average most duck are shot at around 35 yard mark when wildfowling,(most normal loads at this range are fine). But if one comes over 55 yards up I just like to have a bit more steel to throw at it

[Big Mat]

In the days of lead for wildfowl i used 28 grams of no six. Yes 28 grams. I now use 32 grams no four in steel (mirage) and shoot similar numbers of duck.

 

pigeon shooting a week past on tues i was using 32 gram no 4 s in steel simply because they were free.

 

I ran out and used 28 gram 7s in trap loads and was killing birds well out to max 45 yds.

 

This weekend im shooting geese using 36 grams no 2s, im also carrying a load of 32 fours in case.

 

Open up a 36 gram no 2 and you will see why im not confident.

 

If everthing goes to plan and the geese drop in as normal at 30 to 40 yds the 32s will do the job. I know because ive literally shot hundreds of them( duck n geese) with 32 no 4s in steel.

 

36 grams no2 mirage magnum steel has 152 approx pcs of shot.

 

32 grams no 4 mirage steel has approx 225 pcs of shot.

 

i know which i prefer.

 

 

 

 

 

 

And no im not putting my tin hat on . Get out and try it

 

Why would you not be confident in 36grams 2s? There is plenty of shot there and it will hold its energy better than 4s.

 

I wouldnt chose 4s for geese over 2s just because the 4s had some more shot, yes it will do the job fine but there is more margine for error with the bigger shot.

 

Incidently, i shot one with 32gram BBs, now thats even less shot than 36gram 2s and it worked just fine, goose was stone dead before it hit the ground.

Edited November 6, 2013 by Big Mat

[wildfowler.250]

If it comes over at 55 yards, I'll just leave it.

 

IMO a wing and a prayer shot.

 

It's really not that far

[Guest cookoff013]

In the days of lead for wildfowl i used 28 grams of no six. Yes 28 grams. I now use 32 grams no four in steel (mirage) and shoot similar numbers of duck.

 

pigeon shooting a week past on tues i was using 32 gram no 4 s in steel simply because they were free.

 

I ran out and used 28 gram 7s in trap loads and was killing birds well out to max 45 yds.

 

This weekend im shooting geese using 36 grams no 2s, im also carrying a load of 32 fours in case.

 

Open up a 36 gram no 2 and you will see why im not confident.

 

If everthing goes to plan and the geese drop in as normal at 30 to 40 yds the 32s will do the job. I know because ive literally shot hundreds of them( duck n geese) with 32 no 4s in steel.

 

36 grams no2 mirage magnum steel has 152 approx pcs of shot.

 

32 grams no 4 mirage steel has approx 225 pcs of shot.

 

i know which i prefer.

 

 

 

 

 

 

And no im not putting my tin hat on . Get out and try it

 

the proof in the pudding is on the pattern plate. not cutting open a shell.

[Penelope]

I was always brought up to believe (via books, experience of others, etc) that 40yds was there or there about's the maximum lethal effective range of a shotgun using the superior lead shot. Either pattern (with big shot) or penetration with small shot gave out around that mark.

 

It seems odd to me that with an inferior material, steel, that ranges increase dramatically.

It's really not that far

[itchy trigger]

I was always brought up to believe (via books, experience of others, etc) that 40yds was there or there about's the maximum lethal effective range of a shotgun using the superior lead shot. Either pattern (with big shot) or penetration with small shot gave out around that mark.

 

It seems odd to me that with an inferior material, steel, that ranges increase dramatically.

 

+1

[Guest cookoff013]

I was always brought up to believe (via books, experience of others, etc) that 40yds was there or there about's the maximum lethal effective range of a shotgun using the superior lead shot. Either pattern (with big shot) or penetration with small shot gave out around that mark.

 

It seems odd to me that with an inferior material, steel, that ranges increase dramatically.

 

40 yards is about the "normal" one would expect with a standard shell, that standard shell is 1200fps or 3-drams or 2,7/8 drams equivalent.

all previous models or experience is with slow loads.

 

in the 80s and 90s 1500fps was not possable.

 

you seem to have the "lead" mindset comparing it to steel, steel shells pattern tight.

 

there is effective range (40yards max) and there are 40+ ranges where the pattern is thin but minimal strikes can still take game.

 

thats why the shotsizes of steel jump about, its low density means going 3-4 shotsizes bigger than lead equivalent just to be adequate. big shot (#2s steel) are great for the 40 yards, and have sme energy to go beyond. thats the main point, because steels low density, using equivalent shotsizes, in mm would be like using equivalent to 6s or so.

 

but the shotsize selection should be equivalent to #shotcount / ounce. where there is similar crossover.

this means .....

 

going by US sizes...

 

steel #1 US = 103 pellets per oz.

lead #3 US = 108 pellets per oz.

so theoretically steel #1 pellet is identical in weight to lead #3

 

these are completely different from uk steel shotsizes / lead which are 1 smaller...

 

so even at 1400fps both pellets start off at the same enegy / speed at muzzel, although the energy retention up to and exceeding 40yards are different.

 

so steel is shot at 100-200fps more to ovecome the inferiour ballistics. ie it gets given more energy. even though it looses more energy to the target, its got more to loose.

the gain is only a few meters. but thats the price to pay for shooting steel.

[casts_by_fly]

No you don't! There's that word 'need' again. I have shot plenty of mallard with no.4 at around 40 yards. They do the job. Using the correct choke also helps. I usually use no.3 or no.2 for higher ducks.

One of the pinks I killed on Sunday was with 2 shot. I know of others who've killed pinks with 3s and 4s. Hitting them in the right place is the key. Hit them up the **** with T shot and they'll fly on.

 

By the way, I don't believe that a squirrel hit squarely at 30 or even 40 yards would survive steel no.5.

 

Survive? No. But certainly run off. We used to hunt 'small game' every weekend when Iw as growing up. That meant walking the woods for rabbits, squirrels, and birds, shooting whatever you came across that was in season. I've shot more than my share of squirrels this way with a shotgun (we also used to hunt squirrels specifically with 22's). I've shot more than a couple squirrels with full choked lead 5's that have continued to run or that have run after getting shot. They were running dead, but some made it as far as the crook of a tree or their hole. Squirrels have incredibly tough skin and high muscle density (i.e. really hard muscles). It takes a lot to penetrate through the body cavity, much more than you'd expect. Try skinning a squirrel and you'll see how tough the skin is. Only pellets to the head will truly stop them on the spot every time.

 

 

I was always brought up to believe (via books, experience of others, etc) that 40yds was there or there about's the maximum lethal effective range of a shotgun using the superior lead shot. Either pattern (with big shot) or penetration with small shot gave out around that mark.

 

It seems odd to me that with an inferior material, steel, that ranges increase dramatically.

 

You were brough up wrong with wives tales and half truths. It is all about the specific load you're using, the choke of the gun, and how the shooter shoots it. A #9 pellet will run out of game killing energy very shortish. A #2 not so much. Woodcock are very light framed/feathered birds that don't take much pellet energy to kill. A big canada or even a late season pheasant take quite a lot more. Pattern density achieved is both the number of shot and the choke (plus the density required is based on what you're shooting- a clay needs a lot higher density than a goose). I just put my big gun to the board with a new choke and sure enough at 40 yards I have more than enough pattern density to guarantee multiple pellets in a mallard using #1 shot. Seeing how it shoots, a 50 yard goose isn't a problem if I do my part. I can't shoot well enough beyond that so I won't even waste the cartidge on the board.

 

Yes, shooting beyond 40 yards is beyond many shooters and does require that you know your gun and load. But it certainly isn't the maximum range for a shotgun.

 

thanks

rick

[Rimfireboy]

No you don't! There's that word 'need' again. I have shot plenty of mallard with no.4 at around 40 yards. They do the job. Using the correct choke also helps. I usually use no.3 or no.2 for higher ducks.One of the pinks I killed on Sunday was with 2 shot. I know of others who've killed pinks with 3s and 4s. Hitting them in the right place is the key. Hit them up the **** with T shot and they'll fly on. By the way, I don't believe that a squirrel hit squarely at 30 or even 40 yards would survive steel no.5.

I don't think steel 5's would get through the skin of a squirrel at 40 yards. They are tough animals and I won't use steel 5's again for anything. If I'd been using lead 5's that squirrel would've been dead first shot.

[wymberley]

 

 

It seems odd to me that with an inferior material, steel, that ranges increase dramatically.

And so it would seem.

 

Just to reiterate a previous point: tignme, who says he's shooting 2s and 4s, is actually shooting Bs and 3s. I may have this wrong having no intention of shooting NTS and am only posting because of an interest in B525 LIGHT's work, is there or is there not a UK standard for grading steel shot size or are we going to carry on mixing it with the Americans and Italians to name but just two?

[wymberley]

 

40 yards is about the "normal" one would expect with a standard shell, that standard shell is 1200fps or 3-drams or 2,7/8 drams equivalent.

all previous models or experience is with slow loads.

 

in the 80s and 90s 1500fps was not possable.

 

you seem to have the "lead" mindset comparing it to steel, steel shells pattern tight.

 

there is effective range (40yards max) and there are 40+ ranges where the pattern is thin but minimal strikes can still take game.

 

thats why the shotsizes of steel jump about, its low density means going 3-4 shotsizes bigger than lead equivalent just to be adequate. big shot (#2s steel) are great for the 40 yards, and have sme energy to go beyond. thats the main point, because steels low density, using equivalent shotsizes, in mm would be like using equivalent to 6s or so.

 

but the shotsize selection should be equivalent to #shotcount / ounce. where there is similar crossover.

this means .....

 

going by US sizes...

 

steel #1 US = 103 pellets per oz.

lead #3 US = 108 pellets per oz.

so theoretically steel #1 pellet is identical in weight to lead #3

 

these are completely different from uk steel shotsizes / lead which are 1 smaller...

 

so even at 1400fps both pellets start off at the same enegy / speed at muzzel, although the energy retention up to and exceeding 40yards are different.

 

so steel is shot at 100-200fps more to ovecome the inferiour ballistics. ie it gets given more energy. even though it looses more energy to the target, its got more to loose.

the gain is only a few meters. but thats the price to pay for shooting steel.

Am I right in thinking that what you're saying here is that given the same energy at any given distance not just at the muzzle, which steel gains from an increase in velocity over that required by lead, that a steel pellet and one of lead will have the same terminal ballistic effect?

[casts_by_fly]

Am I right in thinking that what you're saying here is that given the same energy at any given distance not just at the muzzle, which steel gains from an increase in velocity over that required by lead, that a steel pellet and one of lead will have the same terminal ballistic effect?

 

Given two pellets of the same energy and mass (i.e. the same velocity) then you could expect the same or very similar terminal performance as you're comparing spheres of very similar sizes which do nothing but penetrate (i.e. no change in shape). The difference comes in when you compare different masses at the same energies. Penetration is directly proportional to momentum, which is the mass times the velocity. Energy is mass times velocity squared. So while two pellets could have the same energy, the pellet that derrives its energy from mass will have a greater penetration than one that derrives its energy from velocity. That is where the 'go up a couple sizes' rule of thumb comes from. You need the same pellet mass to have the same terminal effect and downstream velocity carry. That comes a couple sizes larger for steel than lead.

 

thanks,

Rick

[wildfowler.250]

I was always brought up to believe (via books, experience of others, etc) that 40yds was there or there about's the maximum lethal effective range of a shotgun using the superior lead shot. Either pattern (with big shot) or penetration with small shot gave out around that mark.

 

It seems odd to me that with an inferior material, steel, that ranges increase dramatically.

I'd say it depends on the circumstance. Some of my friends go to a driven shoot and won't shoot birds at 35 yards. They are consistently shooting birds with lead around the 70 yard mark. Now the guns and chokes are kitted out for this. It's not my cup of tea but it can be done. 55 yards with steel is doable.

[Guest cookoff013]

i didnt mean to confuse...

 

i was trying to point out that steel 1s and lead 3s (US sizes) shotsizes have the same mass per pellet. certainly at the muzzel if the speeds are the same then the overall energy and energy per pellet is near identical. that i not a guess that is fact.

but only at the muzzel.

 

the differences come at 20yards + at a guess.

 

now steel needs to be shot at higher speeds to get more energy downrange. this is to "try to" overcome the ballistic differences. steel can never be realisticly shot at high enough speeds to perform as lead. it just isnt going to happen. lead just performs too good over distance.

but what loaders and factorys worked out is 1600fps is about the limit you`d want to push steel, because the cost in powder to get it fast, pressures involved, and it`ll just end up blowing the pattern up.

the extra speed applied to steel shells is just to get alittle more performance within reason.

 

that extra 1-200dps is to litterally gain a small percentage of energy it may work out to a 50fps or 25fps difference at 40yards.

i honestly think steel

 

no, steel is inferior to lead, but can be shot at higher speeds. to compensate. even this is to gain very little at 40 yards, but if the gain is so little, is it worth it?

 

going up a few extra shotsizes really changes the energy at distance. - thats the point. instead of shooting at faster, larger shot is used to put energy at distance.

[Dangerous Brian]

This thread makes some very interesting reading. It's going to be a bit of a worry to some people with 20 bores in standard proof if the maximum steel size permitted by CIP is a five.

[wymberley]

Like many others, I'm firmly of the opinion that the theory behind the, 'go up two shot sizes' as has been explained is what has got us in this mess. Now that he has clarified what I couldn't quite grasp, cookoff is as correct in saying it is necessary to go up 3 or 4 shot sizes as he was when he posted the advantage of defining pellet size by annotating the number of pellets/oz on the carton. The 'go up two shot sizes' is flawed theory in this respect (although the science is correct) whereas the 'up 3 or 4 sizes' is empirical in nature and therefore more of an advantage to us. The enormous mortality programmes at Nilo and Patuxent reflect that a more accurate assessment relates to what is termed 'energy density' (ED). This is simply defined as the pellet energy divided by its cross-sectional area. This term is used to indicate that when two pellets share the same energy, the one with the higher ED will have the greater terminal effect.

 

A 2.6mm (No 6) lead pellet with an MV of 400m/s at 40 yards will have an energy of 1.84 Joules and a calculated ED of 0.34 J/mm2

 

A 3.1mm (No 4) steel pellet similarly will have 1.85 Joules but an ED of just 0.25.

 

A 3.6mm (No 1) steel pellet will have an ED of 0.34 J/mm2. Obviously, this can be improved somewhat by upping the MV of a smaller pellet but even so the 'go up two shot sizes' is fictitious and fanciful in nature

[Guest cookoff013]

This thread makes some very interesting reading. It's going to be a bit of a worry to some people with 20 bores in standard proof if the maximum steel size permitted by CIP is a five.

 

yes the steel situation with 20bores are really restrictive, but then so is the rules for 12bore. the cip limits shotsize and speed and recoil, all of which need to be adjusted to get the best out of the shells.

 

 

Like many others, I'm firmly of the opinion that the theory behind the, 'go up two shot sizes' as has been explained is what has got us in this mess. Now that he has clarified what I couldn't quite grasp, cookoff is as correct in saying it is necessary to go up 3 or 4 shot sizes as he was when he posted the advantage of defining pellet size by annotating the number of pellets/oz on the carton. The 'go up two shot sizes' is flawed theory in this respect (although the science is correct) whereas the 'up 3 or 4 sizes' is empirical in nature and therefore more of an advantage to us. The enormous mortality programmes at Nilo and Patuxent reflect that a more accurate assessment relates to what is termed 'energy density' (ED). This is simply defined as the pellet energy divided by its cross-sectional area. This term is used to indicate that when two pellets share the same energy, the one with the higher ED will have the greater terminal effect.

 

A 2.6mm (No 6) lead pellet with an MV of 400m/s at 40 yards will have an energy of 1.84 Joules and a calculated ED of 0.34 J/mm2

 

A 3.1mm (No 4) steel pellet similarly will have 1.85 Joules but an ED of just 0.25.

 

A 3.6mm (No 1) steel pellet will have an ED of 0.34 J/mm2. Obviously, this can be improved somewhat by upping the MV of a smaller pellet but even so the 'go up two shot sizes' is fictitious and fanciful in nature

 

@ wimberley

i dont really understand this ED business, i`m not disputing it. my criteria would be to get big enough rocks and chuck em as fast as i can. at x distance the rocks will still have enough energy to do somefink.

i see the comparable #6lead and #1 steel at 40yards... not a bad comparison.

 

i`d like to see a minimum energy of X ftlbs at 30 yards.

 

but in all honesty this is all textbook ballistics, and has no bearing on patterns.

 

the shame is that 36g loads need expensive powder to get it going. cos there still is alot of shot at 1,1/4oz and 1400fps., thats not too extreme. although the guys here still try and use 2.75" hulls when at all possable.

the 3" was designed with steel loads in mind, as did the 3.5" and even bigger steel.

 

i still cringe sometimes when i see reports of #7s steel used on geese. but thats my problem.

[wymberley]

 

but in all honesty this is all textbook ballistics, and has no bearing on patterns.

 

 

It's not really, you know. Yep, pattern quality must be looked at as well - neither energy nor pattern are any use without the other. The ED was noted after the countless thousands of duck were shot in the trials that were mentioned plus others. The specific example I gave - I must admit I cherry picked a nice clear cut one - are as a result of thousands of rounds fired at various ranges at the Ballistic Research Laboratory. On the grounds that no one can judge distance to the nearest inch, there's no requirement for pin point science in the field so a quick, uncomplicated and reasonably accurate device like the use of ED will prove useful - once we all start talking the same shot sizing system.

 

If any one does want to make it difficult, I've just finished working out the BC for steel shot for sizes from A (4.6mm) to 5 (2.8mm) which are reasonably accurate to possibly help another member with something that he is doing and which has proved to be of interest to members.

[tignme]

 

the proof in the pudding is on the pattern plate. not cutting open a shell.

The proof in the pudding is the results i know i get. I have shot extensively at a pattern plate (my own on one permission) using every choke combination and cartridge i use and the proof at max forty yds is that 32 no 4s in steel are in my guns (benelli super black eagle two and a miroku multi choke trap gun.) using half choke are a far better pattern than 36 gram no 2s.

 

And so it would seem.

 

Just to reiterate a previous point: tignme, who says he's shooting 2s and 4s, is actually shooting Bs and 3s. I may have this wrong having no intention of shooting NTS and am only posting because of an interest in B525 LIGHT's work, is there or is there not a UK standard for grading steel shot size or are we going to carry on mixing it with the Americans and Italians to name but just two?

 

Wymberley my 32 gram no 4s in steel are the exact same size as 32 gram no 6 in lead. Mirage clever cartridges.

[anser2]

As others have said use no 3 steel for teal and medium sized duck and 3.5 inch loads of no 2 for high flighting mallard with a full after choke. I have tried various sizes for geese and get the best results with BBB or is reasonable close BB , but always with a full after choke. They do not work as well in normal chokes of 1\2 or less.

[kent]

As others have said use no 3 steel for teal and medium sized duck and 3.5 inch loads of no 2 for high flighting mallard with a full after choke. I have tried various sizes for geese and get the best results with BBB or is reasonable close BB , but always with a full after choke. They do not work as well in normal chokes of 1\2 or less.

 

Explain why a 3 1/2" and why an extra full choke? Velocity and retained energy is key and what can be done with a real HV load of no.2 through modified cannot be bettered by any appreciable amount on duck IMO. Why not just say leave the 12 in the safe and take a 10ga or even better reduce your range?

3 1/2" 12 ga guns are not great to shoot a lot of shells through even in a gas op, after a few seasons of using these shells most will revert back to a 3" load on duck

[tignme]

As others have said use no 3 steel for teal and medium sized duck and 3.5 inch loads of no 2 for high flighting mallard with a full after choke. I have tried various sizes for geese and get the best results with BBB or is reasonable close BB , but always with a full after choke. They do not work as well in normal chokes of 1\2 or less.

 

 

anser. most if not all cartridge manufactureres state a MAX of half choke using steel.

 

teal are a small duck and can be shot with 28 no 7s in steel out to forty yds why do you feel the need to use magnums for small duck.

[andrewluke]

 

 

anser. most if not all cartridge manufactureres state a MAX of half choke using steel.

 

teal are a small duck and can be shot with 28 no 7s in steel out to forty yds why do you feel the need to use magnums for small duck.

 

 

sorry but i would not shoot any game with 28gr 7s steel,

 

andrew

[Guest cookoff013]

 

 

sorry but i would not shoot any game with 28gr 7s steel,

 

andrew

 

more common than you think. the fact that someone can go `fowling for £2.50 a box of shells makes it extremely attractive.

 

i`ve even heard that 18grams of #7 is the new "goose" shell. but i cant get my head around that, especially at the slow speeds.